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Author Topic:   Underpowered 21 Outrage

msandman posted 09-22-2009 05:07 PM ET (US)
Hi guys. I have a [2003 Outrage 21] with a Honda 225-HP, a rather large custom aluminum top, and run the boat most times with four or five big guys onboard. It feels very underpowerd. I have dropped the propeller pitch and am currently running a 14-3/8 x 15 stainless prop. [The 2002 OUTRAGE 21] still won't get out of the water well. I am considering ditching the Honda for a Mercury 250 to 300-HP Optimax XS. Or, do I continue dropping [the pitch of] the propeller? One friend told me to go down to a 11-inch or 12-inch pitch Any help?
TransAm posted 09-22-2009 05:36 PM ET (US)
It would certainly help to know all your current performance numbers, particularly your WOT RPM, what exact prop you are running. 225 HP should be plenty for that rig, in fact it is the maximum rated HP for the 2003 21 Outrage. That must be one helluva aluminum top you got on there.
msandman posted 09-22-2009 05:59 PM ET (US)
As stated earlier [the propeller] is a stainless Rapture 14-3/8 by 15. I recently [reduced pitch] from a 17, and still no help. I have to ask the guys to run forward to get the bow down and planing--embarrasing if you know what I mean. My friend has the same [Boston Whaler boat with] a Mercury 225-HP Saltwater two-cycle. [His boat] blows my boat off the line and on top speed. Thanks for the help.
Tom W Clark posted 09-22-2009 08:01 PM ET (US)
The 2003 Outrage 210 is rated for a maximum of 225 HP. Your boat is not underpowered, it is overweight and probably aggravated by having the wrong propeller.
The Michigan Rapture is not the right prop for that kind of boat at all. You need a prop with a large diameter and/or blade area for good stern lift . A prop like a Mercury MIRAGEplus, Revolution 4 or a PowerTech OFS4 or Turbo OSI.
What is the top speed of the boat now?
msandman posted 09-22-2009 09:04 PM ET (US)
Hi Tom. That good to hear. My current top speed with two guys going downwind in small seas is 35-KPH [later revised to mean 35-nautical miles per hour]. [Engine speed] around 5,400- to 5,600-RPM. What size and pitch do you recommend for me[?] I live in Hawaii and game fish and escort canoe races with up to six people on board [plus their] gear. It requires me to do short bursts of speed to drop paddlers. Mark
msandman posted 09-22-2009 09:05 PM ET (US)
I meant 35 [nautical miles per hour].
msandman posted 09-23-2009 02:25 AM ET (US)
Tom,
What size prop do you recommend? I will give it a try and spend the $$ as it would be a lot less than a new motor!
Mark
Perry posted 09-23-2009 03:30 AM ET (US)
Is that you Sandvold?
When I'm escorting and have 5 big guys in my Whaler, I drop down in pitch and use a 4 blade prop like Tom Clark recommends. It really makes a difference I might even have a 15 pitch Powertech OFS hubbed for a Honda in my garage somewhere. I'll look tomorrow.
Carson
SJUAE posted 09-23-2009 06:18 AM ET (US)
msandman
I have a 2006 210 Outrage with an ETEC 200HO and have never had any problems getting up even when over propped or with 7 adults and 2 children on board and full gear,tank etc and all OEM options fitted and a 9.9 pro kicker (110lbs).
My fist props were:
Viper 19 Pitch (3 blade s/s) gave 40 Mph and 5200 rpm at WOT
and
Cyclone 17 Pitch (4 blade s/s) gave 38 Mph and 4800 rpm at WOT
now
Viper 17 Pitch (3 blade s/s) 45 Mph and 5600 rpm at WOT
There is also a Rebel 3 blade s/s prop by BRP that I would like too try as it is more cupped and should give more lift, better crusie but slightly less top end on WOT
I quickly looked at the Boston Whaler performance data for the Merc Opti Max 200 with a 17" Mirage for the Outrage 210 and the results were very similar except my top end was 3mph slower, but that is due to my boat has a full T-Top, outriggers, kicker and normal operating load and 2 adults.
The test data was much lighter loaded etc and the temperature and humidity is much higher here in the Middle East (+110F/+70%).
I would be cautious as fist as all not all makes of props are equal and a 4 blade prop may require to be 2-4 inches smaller than the 3 blade to achieve same revs.
I also tend to trim almost full in when powering up then gradually trim out to achieve best rev's for conditions, I currently do not to use my tabs to assist on planning up as I find no need.
You also need to ensure the engine height is good ie cav plate is above surface at WOT and that your trim angle is not impeaded
FYI The test data for the lightly loaded Verado 200 on the 210 showed a 14-5/8 x 17 Rev 4 prop at 48.4 MPh at 6100 WOT, your heavy loaded but bigger Honda I would of thought should be similar with this type of prop.

Regards
Steve
Tom W Clark posted 09-23-2009 11:35 AM ET (US)
Mark,
You say your boat goes 35 NMPH downwind with only two guys onboard at, let's average it, 5500 RPM. Your motor has a 1.86:1 gear ratio and a 15" pitch propeller.
That's about 4 percent propeller slip which seems odd given the load you describe, by we know the Michigan Rapture tends to show very low slip like the Stiletto Advantage or Turbo 1.
Still, I can't get beyond the fact your boat should be much faster. Just how accessorized is your boat? What happens to top speed when you load it with six guys and are running in mixed conditions?
The Honda BF225 has a redline of 6000 RPM and you're well below that now with the small 15" pitch prop and a moderate load. If all of this is true, I do no think the 15" Mercury Revolution 4 will be satisfactory when the boat is fully loaded.
Can you offer any more details of how your boat is rigged? Have you verified the motor is running on all six cylinders? I'm looking for some reasonable explanation of why your boat is so slow.
SJUAE posted 09-23-2009 01:50 PM ET (US)
Tom
I agree. It seems the boat must have 2" of marine growth or 1000lbs of more weight or the Honda is just not producing due to cylinders or fuel flow, something seems to be holding it back.
Regards
Steve
msandman posted 09-23-2009 08:07 PM ET (US)
Hi Guys,
Motor sounds fine as I purchased it new and it's had regular maintenance so I don't believe it's not hitting on all cylinders. It's most likely a prop problem do to the extra weight with the massive T-top I have. 8x16'. More of a rack for transporting surfboards and canoes but all alluminum. I estimate the weight at 300lbs or so.. Anyway I just purchased a Power Tech OFS 14 and will let you know how that runs.
Yes Carson I am Sandvold!!
Perry posted 09-23-2009 08:12 PM ET (US)
Yea Mark, that top you have is a monster. Hopefully the Powertech OFS will help. Is it a 4 blade OFS?
Sal DiMercurio posted 09-24-2009 01:21 AM ET (US)
If your "T" top is in fact 8 ft wide by 16 ft long, it changes the airodynamics of that boat in a very, very big way, thus screwing up much of your would be performance.
That thing is nothing short of a sail, that can really put you into a situation that you may not like at all.
I doubt that boat was engineered to perform at all with that thing on top of it.
Sal
Basshole posted 09-24-2009 01:40 AM ET (US)
Get yourself an Evinrude 250 hp ETEC high output and you'll love it. I have a 225 hp ETEC on my 21 Conquest and it does over 50 MPH with 80 gallons of fuel, 3 people and gear. Hole shot is quick and acceleration is outstanding. That big ol T-top will definitely have an influence on performance though. With the ETEC you can also get the I-Command gauges which you can integrate with marine electronics. The motor has no brake-in period and doesn't need to be serviced for the first three years. To top it off Evinrude customer service is very accessible and helpful. I'm very happy with mine.
SJUAE posted 09-24-2009 02:22 AM ET (US)
Considering a fully fitted out OEM T-Top on a 21ft Outrage is likely to be in the range of 150lbs.
The extra 150lbs of msandman top I would not of though this was enough to stop him "getting out of the water well"
Agreed once away and at speed that huge area will have a big affect which is may be why his top end is poor.
Regards
Steve
msandman posted 09-24-2009 04:53 PM ET (US)
with regard to the T-Top it should not affect the boats performance other than the additional weight for the hole shot. I do agree at top speed it can and does act as a foil and it can slow the boat down in big winds.. Having said that it works fine in the 0-20mph range I operate at. I think the new prop ( Pro tech OFS 14' 4 blade) will solve my problem of getting my up and planning and provide some stern lift. Also Pro Tech has a great video on the Honda 225 motor and describes my lack of performace due to having the wrong prop.
Thanks to all for the help.

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Author	Topic: Underpowered 21 Outrage
msandman	posted 09-22-2009 05:07 PM ET (US) Hi guys. I have a [2003 Outrage 21] with a Honda 225-HP, a rather large custom aluminum top, and run the boat most times with four or five big guys onboard. It feels very underpowerd. I have dropped the propeller pitch and am currently running a 14-3/8 x 15 stainless prop. [The 2002 OUTRAGE 21] still won't get out of the water well. I am considering ditching the Honda for a Mercury 250 to 300-HP Optimax XS. Or, do I continue dropping [the pitch of] the propeller? One friend told me to go down to a 11-inch or 12-inch pitch Any help?
TransAm	posted 09-22-2009 05:36 PM ET (US) It would certainly help to know all your current performance numbers, particularly your WOT RPM, what exact prop you are running. 225 HP should be plenty for that rig, in fact it is the maximum rated HP for the 2003 21 Outrage. That must be one helluva aluminum top you got on there.
msandman	posted 09-22-2009 05:59 PM ET (US) As stated earlier [the propeller] is a stainless Rapture 14-3/8 by 15. I recently [reduced pitch] from a 17, and still no help. I have to ask the guys to run forward to get the bow down and planing--embarrasing if you know what I mean. My friend has the same [Boston Whaler boat with] a Mercury 225-HP Saltwater two-cycle. [His boat] blows my boat off the line and on top speed. Thanks for the help.
Tom W Clark	posted 09-22-2009 08:01 PM ET (US) The 2003 Outrage 210 is rated for a maximum of 225 HP. Your boat is not underpowered, it is overweight and probably aggravated by having the wrong propeller. The Michigan Rapture is not the right prop for that kind of boat at all. You need a prop with a large diameter and/or blade area for good stern lift . A prop like a Mercury MIRAGEplus, Revolution 4 or a PowerTech OFS4 or Turbo OSI. What is the top speed of the boat now?
msandman	posted 09-22-2009 09:04 PM ET (US) Hi Tom. That good to hear. My current top speed with two guys going downwind in small seas is 35-KPH [later revised to mean 35-nautical miles per hour]. [Engine speed] around 5,400- to 5,600-RPM. What size and pitch do you recommend for me[?] I live in Hawaii and game fish and escort canoe races with up to six people on board [plus their] gear. It requires me to do short bursts of speed to drop paddlers. Mark
msandman	posted 09-22-2009 09:05 PM ET (US) I meant 35 [nautical miles per hour].
msandman	posted 09-23-2009 02:25 AM ET (US) Tom, What size prop do you recommend? I will give it a try and spend the $$ as it would be a lot less than a new motor! Mark
Perry	posted 09-23-2009 03:30 AM ET (US) Is that you Sandvold? When I'm escorting and have 5 big guys in my Whaler, I drop down in pitch and use a 4 blade prop like Tom Clark recommends. It really makes a difference I might even have a 15 pitch Powertech OFS hubbed for a Honda in my garage somewhere. I'll look tomorrow. Carson
SJUAE	posted 09-23-2009 06:18 AM ET (US) msandman I have a 2006 210 Outrage with an ETEC 200HO and have never had any problems getting up even when over propped or with 7 adults and 2 children on board and full gear,tank etc and all OEM options fitted and a 9.9 pro kicker (110lbs). My fist props were: Viper 19 Pitch (3 blade s/s) gave 40 Mph and 5200 rpm at WOT and Cyclone 17 Pitch (4 blade s/s) gave 38 Mph and 4800 rpm at WOT now Viper 17 Pitch (3 blade s/s) 45 Mph and 5600 rpm at WOT There is also a Rebel 3 blade s/s prop by BRP that I would like too try as it is more cupped and should give more lift, better crusie but slightly less top end on WOT I quickly looked at the Boston Whaler performance data for the Merc Opti Max 200 with a 17" Mirage for the Outrage 210 and the results were very similar except my top end was 3mph slower, but that is due to my boat has a full T-Top, outriggers, kicker and normal operating load and 2 adults. The test data was much lighter loaded etc and the temperature and humidity is much higher here in the Middle East (+110F/+70%). I would be cautious as fist as all not all makes of props are equal and a 4 blade prop may require to be 2-4 inches smaller than the 3 blade to achieve same revs. I also tend to trim almost full in when powering up then gradually trim out to achieve best rev's for conditions, I currently do not to use my tabs to assist on planning up as I find no need. You also need to ensure the engine height is good ie cav plate is above surface at WOT and that your trim angle is not impeaded FYI The test data for the lightly loaded Verado 200 on the 210 showed a 14-5/8 x 17 Rev 4 prop at 48.4 MPh at 6100 WOT, your heavy loaded but bigger Honda I would of thought should be similar with this type of prop. Regards Steve
Tom W Clark	posted 09-23-2009 11:35 AM ET (US) Mark, You say your boat goes 35 NMPH downwind with only two guys onboard at, let's average it, 5500 RPM. Your motor has a 1.86:1 gear ratio and a 15" pitch propeller. That's about 4 percent propeller slip which seems odd given the load you describe, by we know the Michigan Rapture tends to show very low slip like the Stiletto Advantage or Turbo 1. Still, I can't get beyond the fact your boat should be much faster. Just how accessorized is your boat? What happens to top speed when you load it with six guys and are running in mixed conditions? The Honda BF225 has a redline of 6000 RPM and you're well below that now with the small 15" pitch prop and a moderate load. If all of this is true, I do no think the 15" Mercury Revolution 4 will be satisfactory when the boat is fully loaded. Can you offer any more details of how your boat is rigged? Have you verified the motor is running on all six cylinders? I'm looking for some reasonable explanation of why your boat is so slow.
SJUAE	posted 09-23-2009 01:50 PM ET (US) Tom I agree. It seems the boat must have 2" of marine growth or 1000lbs of more weight or the Honda is just not producing due to cylinders or fuel flow, something seems to be holding it back. Regards Steve
msandman	posted 09-23-2009 08:07 PM ET (US) Hi Guys, Motor sounds fine as I purchased it new and it's had regular maintenance so I don't believe it's not hitting on all cylinders. It's most likely a prop problem do to the extra weight with the massive T-top I have. 8x16'. More of a rack for transporting surfboards and canoes but all alluminum. I estimate the weight at 300lbs or so.. Anyway I just purchased a Power Tech OFS 14 and will let you know how that runs. Yes Carson I am Sandvold!!
Perry	posted 09-23-2009 08:12 PM ET (US) Yea Mark, that top you have is a monster. Hopefully the Powertech OFS will help. Is it a 4 blade OFS?
Sal DiMercurio	posted 09-24-2009 01:21 AM ET (US) If your "T" top is in fact 8 ft wide by 16 ft long, it changes the airodynamics of that boat in a very, very big way, thus screwing up much of your would be performance. That thing is nothing short of a sail, that can really put you into a situation that you may not like at all. I doubt that boat was engineered to perform at all with that thing on top of it. Sal
Basshole	posted 09-24-2009 01:40 AM ET (US) Get yourself an Evinrude 250 hp ETEC high output and you'll love it. I have a 225 hp ETEC on my 21 Conquest and it does over 50 MPH with 80 gallons of fuel, 3 people and gear. Hole shot is quick and acceleration is outstanding. That big ol T-top will definitely have an influence on performance though. With the ETEC you can also get the I-Command gauges which you can integrate with marine electronics. The motor has no brake-in period and doesn't need to be serviced for the first three years. To top it off Evinrude customer service is very accessible and helpful. I'm very happy with mine.
SJUAE	posted 09-24-2009 02:22 AM ET (US) Considering a fully fitted out OEM T-Top on a 21ft Outrage is likely to be in the range of 150lbs. The extra 150lbs of msandman top I would not of though this was enough to stop him "getting out of the water well" Agreed once away and at speed that huge area will have a big affect which is may be why his top end is poor. Regards Steve
msandman	posted 09-24-2009 04:53 PM ET (US) with regard to the T-Top it should not affect the boats performance other than the additional weight for the hole shot. I do agree at top speed it can and does act as a foil and it can slow the boat down in big winds.. Having said that it works fine in the 0-20mph range I operate at. I think the new prop ( Pro tech OFS 14' 4 blade) will solve my problem of getting my up and planning and provide some stern lift. Also Pro Tech has a great video on the Honda 225 motor and describes my lack of performace due to having the wrong prop. Thanks to all for the help.