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Author Topic:   MONTAUK with E-TEC 90-HP

Moby Dick posted 02-04-2011 04:34 PM ET (US)
I read a lot of [advice] that [for a Boston Whaler MONTAUK 17 with an Evinrude E-TEC 90-HP engine] a 15-pitch [Stiletto-brand propeller] is the way to go . [A 15-pitch] propeller seems [too] small; I ran a 13-1/4 by 17 on my 100-HP Johnson. I don't know what the gear ratio was for a 1979 Johnson.
I hear the propeller man I need to talk to is Tom Clark.
pcrussell50 posted 02-04-2011 05:20 PM ET (US)
Your 1979 Johnson should be either 25:13 or 26:13, (which is 2:1) if it were a V4 crossflow. [Unknown acronym deleted] with your selection process.
I'm sure Tom or Nick will chime in with some stuff about how cupping and rake have the effect of adding pitch such that a cupped and raked 15 might have the same effect as a standard 17. Guys?
-Peter
Phil T posted 02-04-2011 09:08 PM ET (US)
Rob (Ratherwhalering) did an extensive test of propellers on his Montauk with an ETEC 90.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004278.html
The search feature is your friend.
Tohsgib posted 02-05-2011 01:25 AM ET (US)
Again your propeller will work but aluminum is for--well Tom will tell you. Like your last thread the 15-inch Stiletto seems to be number one, especially for the cost.
Peter posted 02-05-2011 06:53 AM ET (US)
If your existing 17-inch pitch propeller is from OMC, the chances are that it would run similarly to the 15-inch Stiletto. OMC tended to state a higher pitch than other manufacturers for a propeller of equivalent pitch.
For starters, you could probably use the 17-inch pitch propeller until you are ready to step up to the 15-inch Stiletto.
Tom W Clark posted 02-05-2011 11:10 AM ET (US)
Without getting into a long theoretical discussion of propeller design, let me say that for a classic 16'-7" Whaler with an E-TEC 90, we have a deep body of experience with the propeller choices.
This decision is also made MUCH easier by the limited number of options out there; there just are not many propeller models made for intermediate geacase motors as compared to large V-6 motors.
Short answer: Buy a 13-1/4" x 15" Stiletto Advantage 4.25 because it will equal or outperform any other propeller and cost less to boot.
Additionally, you can mount the motor higher on the transom with the Stiletto Advantage thus gaining even more performance.

quote:
OMC tended to state a higher pitch than other manufacturers for a propeller of equivalent pitch.
That is not true. What is true is that the Stiletto Advantage 4.25 seems to perform like other manufactures' propeller with two more inches of pitch.
Moby Dick posted 02-05-2011 01:02 PM ET (US)
Tom..I would like to purchase a stiletto. How can we do this?
pcrussell50 posted 02-05-2011 03:31 PM ET (US)
Does the ETEC 90 use a derivative of the same 13-spline, v4 gearcase that the old crossflows use? The prop diameters people talk about for the ETEC 90, seem to more or less match those used on the old motors.
-Peter
Tom W Clark posted 02-05-2011 10:19 PM ET (US)
Peter -- All the intermediate gearcase OMC motors use the same size/spline propellers.
Tom W Clark posted 02-05-2011 10:20 PM ET (US)
Moby Dick -- Send me an email or use Google to shop it down.
pcrussell50 posted 02-13-2011 01:58 AM ET (US)
Tom, forgive a gap in my knowledge. I'm going to guess:
small gearcase OMC => 2-3 cylinder motors
medium gearcase OMC => V4 motors
large gearcase OMC => V6 motors
With some overlapping. I _think_ some V4 loopers had large gearcases, and perhaps some 2-3 cylinder motors, such as 40hp and up, had medium gearcases? The question mark was intentional, as I'm not 100% sure of this.
-Peter
seahorse posted 02-13-2011 08:13 AM ET (US)
pcrussell50,
For the E-TEC 20" Evinrude motors, the 2 cylinder 40hp up through the 4 cylinder 115 V-block use the what you call the V-4 propellers. The gear ratios are different on some models, though.
The 25" shaft versions of the 3 cylinder 90 and V-4 115 require the V-6 size propellers. That is a source of confusion if someone does not give the model number or engine shaft length when inquiring about propellers.
Tom W Clark posted 02-13-2011 11:26 AM ET (US)
Seahorse is correct.
Historically, there were also some OMC 140 HP (V-4) motors in the 20" shaft length that also had the V-6 gearcase.
When I say Intermediate size gearcase I am referring to those with bullet/hub diameters of 4-1/4"
Large (V-6) gearcases have bullet/hub diameters of 4-3/4"
Small gearcases can have either 3" or 3-1/2" diameter bullet/hub diameters.
Among all the different manufacturers over the years, there are no consistent boundaries within the horsepowers where one size gearcase yields to another; there is considerable overlap.
pcrussell50 posted 02-13-2011 12:05 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom and Seahorse.
Based on what I got from Seahorse's post, in the case of ETEC motors, Evinrude decided to use larger gear cases for the longer shaft length versions of the same powerhead that uses the medium gear case in a shorter shaft.
IOW, a 20" 115 ETEC uses a medium, (or to use old parlance, a V4) gear case, and a 25" 115 ETEC uses a large, (or to use old parlance, a V6) gear case?
Did I get that right?
-Peter
L H G posted 02-17-2011 12:20 PM ET (US)
Tom - I don't get the Stiletto pitch game. If their 15 runs like everybody else's 17, including the Mercury line of props, as seems to be the case, why don't they just label it a 17? Why confuse the buyer and have them end up with the wrong pitch as could easily happen to the less informed? It seems unlikely they know more about designing and designating prop pitch in this 4-1/4" hub size than Mercury or the other manufacturers.
Nobody ever seems to recommend a Mercury prop for Montauks rigged with an E-tec 90. Why is that? I can't believe that a Stiletto is any better than a Laser II or Quicksilver Lightspeed. What's wrong with Evinrude's props for the E-Tec 90 on a Montauk?
Tom W Clark posted 02-17-2011 12:50 PM ET (US)
Larry -- Good questions.
I like the Laser II for the Montauk, I had one on my last Montauk but, as you know, the shortest pitch they make is 19" and that doesn't work for the vast majority of Montauk motors.
The Vengeance is a tired old design, and those two models are the only three blade SS props Mercury has to offer for intermedite size motors. For all the good Mercury options for large outboards, they have a pitiful selection for smaller motors.
The BRP Viper is a good prop too, but I think the Stiletto Advantage equals or outperforms it on the Montauk. Well, actually, I know it does.
But the primary reason why I recommend it the Stiletto Advantage in particular is simply that is not only costs less, but it costs a whole lot less, making it much better value than anybody else's prop.
L H G posted 02-17-2011 04:54 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom. I keep forgetting about that 2.0 gear ratio on the Evinrdue 90. All other 90's seem to have 2.33, which allows for the 19" or higher pitch props, and more offerings.
What about a 17" pitch 4 bladed Trophy Plus for this rig? I have heard they are quite fast, and often used for flats boats, which are similar in design and weight to a Montauk.
Tom W Clark posted 02-17-2011 06:26 PM ET (US)
No Larry, all other two stroke 90 HP outboards use a 2:1 gear ratio except the Mercury; it is the odd duck here and I've never understood why they felt the need to gear it down so much.
A 2.33:1 gear ratio is very typical of the modern fourstrokes, but they all use a much higher redline, 6000-6300 RPM so there is no way they can use a 19" pitch prop on a Montauk either.
For any Evinrude of Johnson, a Laser II is not an option, regardless or pitch; it won't fit the OMC/BRP gearcase. You have to use the special Quicksilver Lightspeed model with the "small labyrinth" hub to get it to fit an OMC/BRP motor. Any other manufacturer's propeller with fit an OMC/BRP, but not Mercury props.
Furthermore, the special Lightspeed is not even offered in the 19" pitch, the lowest is the 20" pitch.
So, if you really have your heart set on using a Brunswick propeller with an E-TEC 90 on a Montauk, you're stuck with either the 16" or 18" Silverado (the Quicksilver branded version of the Vengeance) and you have to buy the special version of it made for OMC/BRP motors.
Good luck finding a used one and a new one will cost close to $300 new, so why would anybody do that if they could have a Stiletto for $250 that will outperform the Silverado at all levels?
The Trophy Plus? I have yet to find a really good application for on a classic Whaler, but it is not an option for the E-TEC 90 on a Montauk because it will not fit, period. No special version for OMC/BRP motors.
But even if it did, it's a lousy prop for this application. I tried one on my Montauk and its Mercury 90. I know Rob Schmidt also tried the four blade Stiletto Bay Pro (much like the Trophy Plus) on his Montauk and E-TEC 90 and he was not happy with it. Too much torque steer, not as much speed.
Like Rob's experience with the Bay Pro, the Trophy Plus it just didn't feel right to me. It's probably just too much blade area for so small a boat. The best application for the Trophy Plus on a Whaler seems to be the Mercury 90 on a Dauntless 16 which has a relatively low power to weight ratio compared to the classic Montauk. The Trophy Plus is really a bass boat prop.

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Author	Topic: MONTAUK with E-TEC 90-HP
Moby Dick	posted 02-04-2011 04:34 PM ET (US) I read a lot of [advice] that [for a Boston Whaler MONTAUK 17 with an Evinrude E-TEC 90-HP engine] a 15-pitch [Stiletto-brand propeller] is the way to go . [A 15-pitch] propeller seems [too] small; I ran a 13-1/4 by 17 on my 100-HP Johnson. I don't know what the gear ratio was for a 1979 Johnson. I hear the propeller man I need to talk to is Tom Clark.
pcrussell50	posted 02-04-2011 05:20 PM ET (US) Your 1979 Johnson should be either 25:13 or 26:13, (which is 2:1) if it were a V4 crossflow. [Unknown acronym deleted] with your selection process. I'm sure Tom or Nick will chime in with some stuff about how cupping and rake have the effect of adding pitch such that a cupped and raked 15 might have the same effect as a standard 17. Guys? -Peter
Phil T	posted 02-04-2011 09:08 PM ET (US) Rob (Ratherwhalering) did an extensive test of propellers on his Montauk with an ETEC 90. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004278.html The search feature is your friend.
Tohsgib	posted 02-05-2011 01:25 AM ET (US) Again your propeller will work but aluminum is for--well Tom will tell you. Like your last thread the 15-inch Stiletto seems to be number one, especially for the cost.
Peter	posted 02-05-2011 06:53 AM ET (US) If your existing 17-inch pitch propeller is from OMC, the chances are that it would run similarly to the 15-inch Stiletto. OMC tended to state a higher pitch than other manufacturers for a propeller of equivalent pitch. For starters, you could probably use the 17-inch pitch propeller until you are ready to step up to the 15-inch Stiletto.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-05-2011 11:10 AM ET (US) Without getting into a long theoretical discussion of propeller design, let me say that for a classic 16'-7" Whaler with an E-TEC 90, we have a deep body of experience with the propeller choices. This decision is also made MUCH easier by the limited number of options out there; there just are not many propeller models made for intermediate geacase motors as compared to large V-6 motors. Short answer: Buy a 13-1/4" x 15" Stiletto Advantage 4.25 because it will equal or outperform any other propeller and cost less to boot. Additionally, you can mount the motor higher on the transom with the Stiletto Advantage thus gaining even more performance. quote: OMC tended to state a higher pitch than other manufacturers for a propeller of equivalent pitch. That is not true. What is true is that the Stiletto Advantage 4.25 seems to perform like other manufactures' propeller with two more inches of pitch.
Moby Dick	posted 02-05-2011 01:02 PM ET (US) Tom..I would like to purchase a stiletto. How can we do this?
pcrussell50	posted 02-05-2011 03:31 PM ET (US) Does the ETEC 90 use a derivative of the same 13-spline, v4 gearcase that the old crossflows use? The prop diameters people talk about for the ETEC 90, seem to more or less match those used on the old motors. -Peter
Tom W Clark	posted 02-05-2011 10:19 PM ET (US) Peter -- All the intermediate gearcase OMC motors use the same size/spline propellers.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-05-2011 10:20 PM ET (US) Moby Dick -- Send me an email or use Google to shop it down.
pcrussell50	posted 02-13-2011 01:58 AM ET (US) Tom, forgive a gap in my knowledge. I'm going to guess: small gearcase OMC => 2-3 cylinder motors medium gearcase OMC => V4 motors large gearcase OMC => V6 motors With some overlapping. I _think_ some V4 loopers had large gearcases, and perhaps some 2-3 cylinder motors, such as 40hp and up, had medium gearcases? The question mark was intentional, as I'm not 100% sure of this. -Peter
seahorse	posted 02-13-2011 08:13 AM ET (US) pcrussell50, For the E-TEC 20" Evinrude motors, the 2 cylinder 40hp up through the 4 cylinder 115 V-block use the what you call the V-4 propellers. The gear ratios are different on some models, though. The 25" shaft versions of the 3 cylinder 90 and V-4 115 require the V-6 size propellers. That is a source of confusion if someone does not give the model number or engine shaft length when inquiring about propellers.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-13-2011 11:26 AM ET (US) Seahorse is correct. Historically, there were also some OMC 140 HP (V-4) motors in the 20" shaft length that also had the V-6 gearcase. When I say Intermediate size gearcase I am referring to those with bullet/hub diameters of 4-1/4" Large (V-6) gearcases have bullet/hub diameters of 4-3/4" Small gearcases can have either 3" or 3-1/2" diameter bullet/hub diameters. Among all the different manufacturers over the years, there are no consistent boundaries within the horsepowers where one size gearcase yields to another; there is considerable overlap.
pcrussell50	posted 02-13-2011 12:05 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom and Seahorse. Based on what I got from Seahorse's post, in the case of ETEC motors, Evinrude decided to use larger gear cases for the longer shaft length versions of the same powerhead that uses the medium gear case in a shorter shaft. IOW, a 20" 115 ETEC uses a medium, (or to use old parlance, a V4) gear case, and a 25" 115 ETEC uses a large, (or to use old parlance, a V6) gear case? Did I get that right? -Peter
L H G	posted 02-17-2011 12:20 PM ET (US) Tom - I don't get the Stiletto pitch game. If their 15 runs like everybody else's 17, including the Mercury line of props, as seems to be the case, why don't they just label it a 17? Why confuse the buyer and have them end up with the wrong pitch as could easily happen to the less informed? It seems unlikely they know more about designing and designating prop pitch in this 4-1/4" hub size than Mercury or the other manufacturers. Nobody ever seems to recommend a Mercury prop for Montauks rigged with an E-tec 90. Why is that? I can't believe that a Stiletto is any better than a Laser II or Quicksilver Lightspeed. What's wrong with Evinrude's props for the E-Tec 90 on a Montauk?
Tom W Clark	posted 02-17-2011 12:50 PM ET (US) Larry -- Good questions. I like the Laser II for the Montauk, I had one on my last Montauk but, as you know, the shortest pitch they make is 19" and that doesn't work for the vast majority of Montauk motors. The Vengeance is a tired old design, and those two models are the only three blade SS props Mercury has to offer for intermedite size motors. For all the good Mercury options for large outboards, they have a pitiful selection for smaller motors. The BRP Viper is a good prop too, but I think the Stiletto Advantage equals or outperforms it on the Montauk. Well, actually, I know it does. But the primary reason why I recommend it the Stiletto Advantage in particular is simply that is not only costs less, but it costs a whole lot less, making it much better value than anybody else's prop.
L H G	posted 02-17-2011 04:54 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom. I keep forgetting about that 2.0 gear ratio on the Evinrdue 90. All other 90's seem to have 2.33, which allows for the 19" or higher pitch props, and more offerings. What about a 17" pitch 4 bladed Trophy Plus for this rig? I have heard they are quite fast, and often used for flats boats, which are similar in design and weight to a Montauk.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-17-2011 06:26 PM ET (US) No Larry, all other two stroke 90 HP outboards use a 2:1 gear ratio except the Mercury; it is the odd duck here and I've never understood why they felt the need to gear it down so much. A 2.33:1 gear ratio is very typical of the modern fourstrokes, but they all use a much higher redline, 6000-6300 RPM so there is no way they can use a 19" pitch prop on a Montauk either. For any Evinrude of Johnson, a Laser II is not an option, regardless or pitch; it won't fit the OMC/BRP gearcase. You have to use the special Quicksilver Lightspeed model with the "small labyrinth" hub to get it to fit an OMC/BRP motor. Any other manufacturer's propeller with fit an OMC/BRP, but not Mercury props. Furthermore, the special Lightspeed is not even offered in the 19" pitch, the lowest is the 20" pitch. So, if you really have your heart set on using a Brunswick propeller with an E-TEC 90 on a Montauk, you're stuck with either the 16" or 18" Silverado (the Quicksilver branded version of the Vengeance) and you have to buy the special version of it made for OMC/BRP motors. Good luck finding a used one and a new one will cost close to $300 new, so why would anybody do that if they could have a Stiletto for $250 that will outperform the Silverado at all levels? The Trophy Plus? I have yet to find a really good application for on a classic Whaler, but it is not an option for the E-TEC 90 on a Montauk because it will not fit, period. No special version for OMC/BRP motors. But even if it did, it's a lousy prop for this application. I tried one on my Montauk and its Mercury 90. I know Rob Schmidt also tried the four blade Stiletto Bay Pro (much like the Trophy Plus) on his Montauk and E-TEC 90 and he was not happy with it. Too much torque steer, not as much speed. Like Rob's experience with the Bay Pro, the Trophy Plus it just didn't feel right to me. It's probably just too much blade area for so small a boat. The best application for the Trophy Plus on a Whaler seems to be the Mercury 90 on a Dauntless 16 which has a relatively low power to weight ratio compared to the classic Montauk. The Trophy Plus is really a bass boat prop.