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Author Topic:   3.5hp Kicker on Montauk

Salmon Tub posted 03-23-2011 09:56 PM ET (US)
Read a post by alvispollard on another forum about this motor as a kicker for a Montauk. Was wondering if he or anyone else has had any experience with the smaller <4 hp outboards as kickers. Would only be used for trolling, for hours on end. The target speed range is 1.0-3.5 mph. Weight is definitely an issue as well as 360 steering highly desirable. Any info greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Fishmore posted 03-23-2011 11:39 PM ET (US)
My experience: 3hp 2-stroke long shaft Johnson 3.5mph at WOT. (built-in gas tank) (approx 30lbs)
kwik_wurk posted 03-24-2011 12:56 AM ET (US)
On a calm day it will be fine. Any wind or mild chop, you'll struggle.
I pushed a 17' Glassply with a 2.5 Merc (2S) with a plastic prop for hours and hours. But as soon as the wind and waves picked up, game over.
contender posted 03-24-2011 12:10 PM ET (US)
I would have at least an 8 hp just for the reasons stated above, 3.5 hp ok when is calm, but if it has to go up current or against (also if is gets choppy) the wind forget it...
bloller posted 03-24-2011 04:36 PM ET (US)
I really like the performance of the 4hp OMC with 2 cylinders on my 16' hull. It performed great even against a fairly strong current but I never used it any wind/wave action though.
Tohsgib posted 03-24-2011 08:11 PM ET (US)
If it is for trolling and not as an aux. to get you on 10 miles offshore it should be great. If a 6hp could push my 23 O'Day it sure as hell can push a Montauk. A 3.5 should be plenty as long as you know it is just for "certain" conditions.
renoduckman posted 03-24-2011 10:56 PM ET (US)
I have a very old merc 4.5 long shaft on my Montauk. Works great trolling for trout on lakes. If the wind really comes up you wont move much. For trolling though it is great
Salmon Tub posted 03-26-2011 02:42 AM ET (US)
Thanks all.
Yes, only trolling, or worst case scenario keeping far enough from shore if waiting for a tow.
alvispollard posted 04-04-2011 04:25 PM ET (US)
I no longer use a kicker. Mercury 60 hp four stroke will troll down to 1 mph all day in Lake Erie for walleyes. This speed is attained by having a sea anchor attached to front and back 10' under and beside hull. Great setup. 8 mpg cruising speed (30 mph) with 4 fishermen. $4400 new at Basspro and 5 yr. warranty when boat shows are going on. $1200-$1400 saved on kicker will pay for Seatow for many years. Go for it!
Salmon Tub posted 04-12-2011 02:51 PM ET (US)
Well, was playing around with a home-made bracket that is an old Minn-Kota Neptune clamp base with a 2x8 bolted to the back to form a "transom". I clamped the contraption onto the port side upper transom "wing" and clamped a 3.5 Nissan 2 stroke short shaft to the 2x8. It seemed to trailer fine and did not bounce when running on the main engine in moderate seas. The 2x8 runs horizontal and allows the kicker to sit towards the boat's centerline, with the propeller positioned approximately where the port sponson meets the main hull. I would still need to drop the kicker about 3 inches in order to get clean water at half throttle or higher setting. As far as trolling, at idle she gave me about .5 mph, and popped up to 2mph at about 1/4 throttle. This is my target speed range.
The next step will be to replace the 2x8 with a lower profile mount so I can drop the kicker 3". This should be low enough to replicate a long-shaft and should allow me to see if 3.5 hp will be enough in windy/rough conditions. If so, I will get a Merc/Nissan 3.5 longshaft and mount directly to the transom. If 3.5 is not enough, I will have to consider the 4/5/6 hp as a kicker. The boat did not have any noticable list with the 3.5 2stroke (29 lbs) since it is relatively light and close to the centerline. I did notice that the boat pulls a bit to port when on plane due to the combination of prop torque and weight.
I will post further results as they develop.
Erik 88Montauk posted 04-13-2011 08:03 AM ET (US)
I used a 3.5hp Tohatsu (same as the Merc/Nissan) long shaft bolted directly to the transom of my 1988 Montauk for a couple of years. I only needed it once but would often run it for trolling or just to make sure it still worked. At 3/4 throttle with the stock prop it would do about 5.5 to 6.0 mph. More throttle and it made alot of noise but didn't really push any faster. It worked fine against the wind or current but I certainly wouldn't rely on it for a long offshore excursion.
Salmon Tub posted 04-17-2011 08:01 PM ET (US)
Another update. So, I modified the bracket to drop the motor 3". The current set-up is; 8" set-back, 3" below transom "wing" height, and 5" toward the centerline with the gearcase sitting where the sponson meets the keel, so being a short shaft, the cavitation plate is about 2" higher than the bottom of the transom. With the set-back, I get clean water when it is calm, but if going into or with following seas, the set-back allows the kicker to break free of the water from time to time. This is expected and I think can only be mitigated by getting a long-shaft. Right now I am just measuring twice so I can cut once.
Performance; the 3.5hp 2-stroke Nissan gave me .6 mph at idle, 1.6 mph at 1/8 speed (start position), 2.5 mph at 1/4 speed, 3.6 mph at 1/2 speed, 4.5 mph at 2/3-3/4 speed and maxed out at approx. 5.5 mph. Best sound was at 1/8-1/4 speed. Vibration was minimal, but may be more noticeable if mounted directly to transom as I used 1/2" rubber plates on my mount to cushion vibration.
List; With kicker and mount (total 40#), I placed a bucket with 30# of water, and 10# worth of other misc. junk in the back corner to simulate a heavier kicker. List was evident but not too bad with the heavy side sitting about 1"-1.5" lower that the lighter side. I feel I can easily use a kicker up to 60# without seeing any appreciable effect in terms of performance or safety. In this case, I may opt for the Tohatsu/Nissan?Mercury 4hp long-shaft 4-stroke as it has an internal tank, a thermostat, and the ability to flush with muffs as opposed to dunking into a bucket of water.
One other option is to buy a shaft extension kit for the 3.5, but not sure if that is the route I want to go.
Tohsgib posted 04-18-2011 02:07 PM ET (US)
I would not bother going from a 3.5 to a 4hp, especially since you probably will be happy with this setup. Look at the 5-6hp single cyls like Suzuki & Merc/Tohatsu, pretty light @ 50-60lbs.
Salmon Tub posted 04-20-2011 12:30 AM ET (US)
The thing is, the 4 hp has several things going for it that the others don't; First it has dual fuel so I can either fill the internal tank and carry a fuel line to hook it up to my main tanks. Second, it pretty much common knowledge now that the 4hp is the 5 or 6hp only with a smaller carb, and you can get the bigger one online for a little over $100. Heck, most dealers won't even clean the carbs now since at shop rate it comes out cheaper to just buy a new one. Third, the 3.5 is a little lighter but comes with a plastic prop while the 4 has a through-hub style aluminum prop, a thermostat, and can be flushed with a hose rather that dunked in a tank. On sale, the 4hp is only a little more than the 3.5 and honestly, my vote goes to the dual fuel option more than anything else.
jharrell posted 04-21-2011 10:23 PM ET (US)
The Suzuki 6hp has an internal tank too and has the option for a alternator to keep batteries charged.
I have an 83 Johnson 6hp long shaft as a kicker on my Montauk now and it will push the boat to 6mph in clam conditions and last weekend it was windy and rough in Tampa bay and it had no trouble moving me around at 4mph and steering properly.
6hp seems to be the best for the Montauks based on weight and power IMO.
Tom W Clark posted 04-22-2011 09:53 AM ET (US)
Montauks do best with 6-8 HP kickers. Anything less is to small for anything but windless conditions.
I consider 6 HP ideal.
Salmon Tub posted 06-04-2011 11:52 AM ET (US)
UPDATE:
Well, I bought the extension kit and now I have an apparently highly desirable and hard to find Nissan 3.5B2 long shaft.
This is great but when mounted directly to the transom wing, the resonance at any speed other than slightly over idle would rival a paint mixer. So, back to using the mount, which is not all that bad, but being a long shaft, I now need to raise the board back up 3" in order to get better clearance. Otherwise, performance was the same regarding speed, other than I did not test WOT for any length of time due to the vibration.
Will update this thread once I re-test with the bracket and rubber pads.

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Author	Topic: 3.5hp Kicker on Montauk
Salmon Tub	posted 03-23-2011 09:56 PM ET (US) Read a post by alvispollard on another forum about this motor as a kicker for a Montauk. Was wondering if he or anyone else has had any experience with the smaller <4 hp outboards as kickers. Would only be used for trolling, for hours on end. The target speed range is 1.0-3.5 mph. Weight is definitely an issue as well as 360 steering highly desirable. Any info greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Fishmore	posted 03-23-2011 11:39 PM ET (US) My experience: 3hp 2-stroke long shaft Johnson 3.5mph at WOT. (built-in gas tank) (approx 30lbs)
kwik_wurk	posted 03-24-2011 12:56 AM ET (US) On a calm day it will be fine. Any wind or mild chop, you'll struggle. I pushed a 17' Glassply with a 2.5 Merc (2S) with a plastic prop for hours and hours. But as soon as the wind and waves picked up, game over.
contender	posted 03-24-2011 12:10 PM ET (US) I would have at least an 8 hp just for the reasons stated above, 3.5 hp ok when is calm, but if it has to go up current or against (also if is gets choppy) the wind forget it...
bloller	posted 03-24-2011 04:36 PM ET (US) I really like the performance of the 4hp OMC with 2 cylinders on my 16' hull. It performed great even against a fairly strong current but I never used it any wind/wave action though.
Tohsgib	posted 03-24-2011 08:11 PM ET (US) If it is for trolling and not as an aux. to get you on 10 miles offshore it should be great. If a 6hp could push my 23 O'Day it sure as hell can push a Montauk. A 3.5 should be plenty as long as you know it is just for "certain" conditions.
renoduckman	posted 03-24-2011 10:56 PM ET (US) I have a very old merc 4.5 long shaft on my Montauk. Works great trolling for trout on lakes. If the wind really comes up you wont move much. For trolling though it is great
Salmon Tub	posted 03-26-2011 02:42 AM ET (US) Thanks all. Yes, only trolling, or worst case scenario keeping far enough from shore if waiting for a tow.
alvispollard	posted 04-04-2011 04:25 PM ET (US) I no longer use a kicker. Mercury 60 hp four stroke will troll down to 1 mph all day in Lake Erie for walleyes. This speed is attained by having a sea anchor attached to front and back 10' under and beside hull. Great setup. 8 mpg cruising speed (30 mph) with 4 fishermen. $4400 new at Basspro and 5 yr. warranty when boat shows are going on. $1200-$1400 saved on kicker will pay for Seatow for many years. Go for it!
Salmon Tub	posted 04-12-2011 02:51 PM ET (US) Well, was playing around with a home-made bracket that is an old Minn-Kota Neptune clamp base with a 2x8 bolted to the back to form a "transom". I clamped the contraption onto the port side upper transom "wing" and clamped a 3.5 Nissan 2 stroke short shaft to the 2x8. It seemed to trailer fine and did not bounce when running on the main engine in moderate seas. The 2x8 runs horizontal and allows the kicker to sit towards the boat's centerline, with the propeller positioned approximately where the port sponson meets the main hull. I would still need to drop the kicker about 3 inches in order to get clean water at half throttle or higher setting. As far as trolling, at idle she gave me about .5 mph, and popped up to 2mph at about 1/4 throttle. This is my target speed range. The next step will be to replace the 2x8 with a lower profile mount so I can drop the kicker 3". This should be low enough to replicate a long-shaft and should allow me to see if 3.5 hp will be enough in windy/rough conditions. If so, I will get a Merc/Nissan 3.5 longshaft and mount directly to the transom. If 3.5 is not enough, I will have to consider the 4/5/6 hp as a kicker. The boat did not have any noticable list with the 3.5 2stroke (29 lbs) since it is relatively light and close to the centerline. I did notice that the boat pulls a bit to port when on plane due to the combination of prop torque and weight. I will post further results as they develop.
Erik 88Montauk	posted 04-13-2011 08:03 AM ET (US) I used a 3.5hp Tohatsu (same as the Merc/Nissan) long shaft bolted directly to the transom of my 1988 Montauk for a couple of years. I only needed it once but would often run it for trolling or just to make sure it still worked. At 3/4 throttle with the stock prop it would do about 5.5 to 6.0 mph. More throttle and it made alot of noise but didn't really push any faster. It worked fine against the wind or current but I certainly wouldn't rely on it for a long offshore excursion.
Salmon Tub	posted 04-17-2011 08:01 PM ET (US) Another update. So, I modified the bracket to drop the motor 3". The current set-up is; 8" set-back, 3" below transom "wing" height, and 5" toward the centerline with the gearcase sitting where the sponson meets the keel, so being a short shaft, the cavitation plate is about 2" higher than the bottom of the transom. With the set-back, I get clean water when it is calm, but if going into or with following seas, the set-back allows the kicker to break free of the water from time to time. This is expected and I think can only be mitigated by getting a long-shaft. Right now I am just measuring twice so I can cut once. Performance; the 3.5hp 2-stroke Nissan gave me .6 mph at idle, 1.6 mph at 1/8 speed (start position), 2.5 mph at 1/4 speed, 3.6 mph at 1/2 speed, 4.5 mph at 2/3-3/4 speed and maxed out at approx. 5.5 mph. Best sound was at 1/8-1/4 speed. Vibration was minimal, but may be more noticeable if mounted directly to transom as I used 1/2" rubber plates on my mount to cushion vibration. List; With kicker and mount (total 40#), I placed a bucket with 30# of water, and 10# worth of other misc. junk in the back corner to simulate a heavier kicker. List was evident but not too bad with the heavy side sitting about 1"-1.5" lower that the lighter side. I feel I can easily use a kicker up to 60# without seeing any appreciable effect in terms of performance or safety. In this case, I may opt for the Tohatsu/Nissan?Mercury 4hp long-shaft 4-stroke as it has an internal tank, a thermostat, and the ability to flush with muffs as opposed to dunking into a bucket of water. One other option is to buy a shaft extension kit for the 3.5, but not sure if that is the route I want to go.
Tohsgib	posted 04-18-2011 02:07 PM ET (US) I would not bother going from a 3.5 to a 4hp, especially since you probably will be happy with this setup. Look at the 5-6hp single cyls like Suzuki & Merc/Tohatsu, pretty light @ 50-60lbs.
Salmon Tub	posted 04-20-2011 12:30 AM ET (US) The thing is, the 4 hp has several things going for it that the others don't; First it has dual fuel so I can either fill the internal tank and carry a fuel line to hook it up to my main tanks. Second, it pretty much common knowledge now that the 4hp is the 5 or 6hp only with a smaller carb, and you can get the bigger one online for a little over $100. Heck, most dealers won't even clean the carbs now since at shop rate it comes out cheaper to just buy a new one. Third, the 3.5 is a little lighter but comes with a plastic prop while the 4 has a through-hub style aluminum prop, a thermostat, and can be flushed with a hose rather that dunked in a tank. On sale, the 4hp is only a little more than the 3.5 and honestly, my vote goes to the dual fuel option more than anything else.
jharrell	posted 04-21-2011 10:23 PM ET (US) The Suzuki 6hp has an internal tank too and has the option for a alternator to keep batteries charged. I have an 83 Johnson 6hp long shaft as a kicker on my Montauk now and it will push the boat to 6mph in clam conditions and last weekend it was windy and rough in Tampa bay and it had no trouble moving me around at 4mph and steering properly. 6hp seems to be the best for the Montauks based on weight and power IMO.
Tom W Clark	posted 04-22-2011 09:53 AM ET (US) Montauks do best with 6-8 HP kickers. Anything less is to small for anything but windless conditions. I consider 6 HP ideal.
Salmon Tub	posted 06-04-2011 11:52 AM ET (US) UPDATE: Well, I bought the extension kit and now I have an apparently highly desirable and hard to find Nissan 3.5B2 long shaft. This is great but when mounted directly to the transom wing, the resonance at any speed other than slightly over idle would rival a paint mixer. So, back to using the mount, which is not all that bad, but being a long shaft, I now need to raise the board back up 3" in order to get better clearance. Otherwise, performance was the same regarding speed, other than I did not test WOT for any length of time due to the vibration. Will update this thread once I re-test with the bracket and rubber pads.