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| Author | Topic: Outrage 22: MIRAGEplus, ENERTIA, VENSURA, STILLETO Propeller Tests |
| littleblue |
Thought you guys might be interested in a performance report for MIRAGEplus, ENERTIA, VENSURA, and STILLETO propellers. The boat is a 1993 Outrage 22 with a 1998 Mercury 200 EFI Offshore. All tests were done with a full tank of gas, two total passengers and a Yamaha T8 Kicker. All speed numbers are averaged out with two runs of data in opposing directions, against current and with current. Here is an overview of the characteristics of each prop with regard to boat handling: Stiletto 14.25 x 19
Mirage Plus 15.5 x 17
I'm am pretty settled on the Enertia. My only question is whether or not I will have to step down in pitch to an 18". I would prefer to have some better throttle response as I had with the Mirage Plus. Will it work like the Mirage Plus or will it bog down like the Stiletto?
Hope this helps anyone trying to select prop for their Outrage. |
| L H G |
Thank you for a very interesting report. Your top speed with the Enertia of 47.5 MPH is excellent for a 200 HP single carrying a kicker. That is the speed realm of most 22's powered with a 225 HP single. Your data also confirms Mercury's introductory claim that the Enertia is 2 MPH faster than the Mirage Plus. We are starting to see this as more people test both props. I think you are making the right conclusion. With 47.5 MPH at 5700 RPM I doubt if you want to go down to an 18" pitch. You didn't indicate prop vent plugs, so I assume solid, but you might want to open up the vents a little to improve acceleration. Try the large size first. I have a pair of the same engines on my Outrage 25, and with very aggressive 21" pitch Revolution-4 props, am running large plugs in two of the vents on each prop, and two WIDE OPEN, no plastic plug at all. Acceleration is really fast, with no slippage. This goes against all thought convention for an offshore boat, but it works because the Rev-4's grip so well! With the solid vent plugs the props came with, acceleration was slow. The Enertia may perform the same way with it's similar very aggressively raked blades. |
| L H G |
[Drags thread off-topic by speculating about a comparison with a another boat, another engine, and another propeller. Let's stay focused on the excellent data presented here. If you want to begin a discussion in which the topic is your speculation on comparing performance results of two different boats, with different motors, different propellers, based on tests conducted by different people, in different places, in different times, please do that in a new thread you will start. Let this thread stay on topic. Thank you--jimh.] |
| littleblue |
Great point about the plugs, I should experiment with them. For some reason it didn't even cross my mind. |
| Peter |
quote: The reason the Mirage prop feels more responsive to throttle is it is a lower pitch. Take the Mirage out in a good chop and run at low plane speeds and see if it will hold plane. I could not get the Mirage to hold plane well on an Outrage 18. |
| Lupi |
It's very interesting to have those kind of reports. I've just compared the WOT results to what the theory should give. I took a 1.87:1 gear ratio that is (I believe) the ratio for a 200 EFI Mercury two-cycle engine. This gives following results : Stiletto : 53,2 @5500 for 46,7 actual perf (12.3 % slip) slip for the Mirage seems in the standard range for a SS prop. I'm a bit surprised for the other slip that are over 10%. I thought SS props had very little slip values. I've always heard Stiletto to have near 0% slip. Perhaps I took a wrong gear ratio. How the engine is mounted on the transom (at which height?) |
| littleblue |
Engine height, I believe is 3 holes up...but I always get confused. I was told that due to the lower pitch and larger diameter, the Mirage should hold better at low speed. Also in my original post, the trim down speed being faster than the up is for the Mirage and not the Enertia. If the prop is vented will the low speed planing characteristics change? That is important to me and the Enertia seems to do it well, would be a shame to lose any efficiency there. |
| jimh |
I have some limited experience driving boats with Mercury propellers that use a vented plug with their Performance Vent System (PVS). My reaction to the use of open vents in the PVS system has been that the propeller holding tends to perform like the propeller was linked to the propeller shaft with a rubber band. The engine speed rapidly spools up to a particular RPM, and then the boat slowly catches up. From what I have seen of the PVS, I don't think it is particularly useful on propellers of moderate pitch used on boats operating at moderate speeds. I think PVS was intended to allow boats to use propellers of high pitch, say pitches above 22-inch pitch, to allow the boats to reach very high speeds, say over 50-MPH, but to avoid lugging the engine down while accelerating. I suppose there might be some benefit to carrying a propeller whose pitch was slightly too high for good acceleration, letting the PVS create the rubber-band effect while the boat slowly gains speed, and then being able to lumber along at a plaining speed with the engines running at lower RPM. But the cost of that benefit seems to be this annoying rubber-band effect when accelerating. I also worry about the propeller becoming aerated and losing grip in rough water. The PVS seems like it was intended for bass boats to skim along in calm water at 85-MPH. I do not think it is likely to provide a fantastic solution to operating a 22-foot OUTRAGE in the ocean in large seas and the typical speeds you want to go in those conditions. I think a vented propeller in those conditions would have an annoying tendency to be losing grip. But what do I know? My only experience with PVS has been from driving Larry's boat. |
| jimh |
Another problem of using PVS to achieve a higher propeller pitch is the effect on low speed maneuvering. At low speed there is no exhaust coming out of the hub, so the PVS has no effect. At low speed the propeller acts like its high-pitch rating. This has two drawbacks. If you are trolling with the main engine, your trolling speed is now limited to a higher speed. You may not be able to slow down to the speed you want because of the high propeller pitch. When maneuvering around the dock, your slowest speed might be too fast. I find docking is done much more under control if you can move at 3-MPH instead of 7-MPH as the slow speed. If the goal is to have the absolute highest top speed, the PVS may help. The absolute highest top speed is not particularly useful to me. I find my modern outboard engine tells me its operating speed history; I am only at full throttle a few seconds of each day. I don't really find it an attractive trade-off to get another mile or two per hour of top speed if I have to fiddle with the throttle all the time because of the rubber-band effect of PVS. But, you might be different. You might like it. Since it only costs $10 to try a different PVS vent aperture, you might experiment with it. It could suit your boat-motor-propeller and style boating. |
| jimh |
This short recording shows how exhaust gases exit the propeller hub. |
| littleblue |
From what you are describing it does not sound like I will enjoy it. Top speed really is not important to me either. Characteristics of value to me (somewhat in order) 1. Ride quality 2 and 3 are really really close in value. |
| littleblue |
Having said that I will likely still give the vent plugs a try. |
| Peter |
I ran both the Mirage Plus and the Revolution 4 on my Whaler 27 WD and NEVER needed to have the plugs out. Must be a Mercury outboard lacking low torque thing. ;) 20 years ago my first Outrage 18 with a Johnson 150 cross-flow was equipped with a OMC Raker propeller which had vent holes. When the throttle of the Johnson 150 was rapidly advanced, the motor would seemingly almost spin in place barely advancing the boat forward until all of a sudden it was like the "clutch was dropped". You had to hang on. Propeller was not great in choppy conditions where you are trying to maintain the boat on a slow speed plane. |
| littleblue |
Let me clarify, the Enertia is not as responsive as the Mirage. The two biggest differences are pitch and prop diameter. Is the boat not as responsive due to pitch/power or grip? The Mirage just felt more "grippy" when accelerating. I'm guess it feels like "grip" but is really the pitch. I should also mention that the Enertia did not cause a bogging or anything like that. The boat still got up on plane within 4 seconds or so. |
| BQUICK |
I've recently become a convert to 4 bladed props. Smoother (less vibration), great grip and midrange. Slight loss in top speed compared to a 3 blade. I ran 73 in 16 ft BAJA with 200 Yamaha with 3 blade Yamaha Pro Series and 71 with Ballistic 4 blade. I now have a Mazco HP4 and 225+ Yamaha Excel running 81. |
| jimh |
Regarding the optimum boat miles-per-gallon at cruising speed and how to achieve it: There has been a notion put forth that boat miles-per-gallon can be improved at cruising speed by using a propeller with a high pitch and letting the engine run at low crankshaft speed. This proposal tends to ignore a fundamental relationship between boat speed and engine power: to make a boat run at a certain speed requires a certain amount of power. We cannot reduce the amount of power by trying to trick the engine with a different propeller pitch. As a corollary to the above, it has been suggested that having really powerful engines and then letting them run at very moderate throttle settings was way to get improved fuel economy. This proposal ignores a fundamental relationship between engine efficiency and throttle. Most engines do not run at their most efficient point if throttled down. Finding a slight peak in overall miles-per-gallon may depend on aligning several factors. Influences from the engine, the propeller, and the hull will all come into play. The engine converts fuel into power according to its brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC). We know that BSFC is not constant over all crankshaft speeds, loads, and throttle settings. If we had detailed information for a specific engine of its BSFC as a function of these three variables, we could try to pick an operating range for the engine at cruise where the BSFC was best. This is how a team of naval architects would design the propulsion system for a mega-ship like EMMA MAERSK. The engine burns tons of fuel every hour, so you want to be sure you are operating it at its most efficient point. Unfortunately, there really is not data available about the BSFC of outboard engines, and it is really hard to predict how a 1998 Mercury two-cycle V6 outboard with simple fuel induction is going to perform at various throttle settings, engine speeds, and loads, with regard to its BSFC. In that regard, I would suggest that if overall fuel economy is really a big concern, get a Honda BF250 four-cycle; it will get so much better fuel economy that you will likely be stunned. The next factor influencing the fuel economy is the efficiency of the propeller at creating thrust. This is not measured by SLIP. It is really hard to measure the efficiency of the propeller. I don't know any way to do it. We usually see the influence of the propeller combined with BSFC and hull influences, and it is hard to say that we can isolate the propeller. The only way to isolate the propeller is the way you have done it: to use the same boat, the same motor, the same test driver, the same conditions as much as possible, and change the propeller. I don't know if in your narrative you tell us about your observations of fuel economy in detail. I would compare the propellers by running the boats at the same boat speed, and then judging the MPG at that speed. As long as the engine RPM was about the same, you could probably conclude that differences in MPG were a result of the influence of the propellers. If there was a big difference in engine throttle or crankshaft speed, then differences in MPG might be due to BSFC influences. The hull is also a factor. Some hulls may have a particular speed where they are really efficient. This can be influenced by weight distribution, trim, running angle, and so on. In the propeller comparison you should try to keep everything about the hull as uniform as possible. As you mention, with some propellers the hull runs at a different attitude or planing angle. Now the hull is influencing the MPG. With outboard engines we are stuck with fixed-pitch propellers for the most part. The PVS system is a method for creating a means of psuedo-variable-pitch propeller by intentionally spoiling the propeller blades with aerated water. The problem is this effect is only available in a certain speed range. It only occurs after the boat gets moving forward with enough speed to let the exhaust come out of the hub, and then it stops once the boat reaches a faster speed where the exhaust is being pulled past the vents without escaping. It may be possible that by experimenting with various sizes of vents, or using different combinations of vents, you could find something that worked to your advantage. I cannot predict this. I will observe that the use of the PVS vents on boats with moderate speeds and propeller pitches below 20-inch seems to be confined to very small segment. I am not sure if anyone other than Larry is using this technique. Perhaps some others who have tried it and found good results will join in. I think that it is reasonable to expect that if the PVS method were a sure thing to improve boat performance, fuel economy, and all-round handling, you would find the PVS method being used by many boaters. I really don't know how many boaters use it, but my experience is that PVS is not in wide use in the types of boats I have mentioned, that is, moderate speed boats with top speeds of less than 50-MPH that are operated in rough sea conditions. Then, again, I may just be completely misinformed. |
| jimh |
The one constant I see in propeller-boat-motor performance is there is not a very good chance of predicting outcomes. There are many variables, and testing is the best method to discover the outcome. Since testing PVS is very inexpensive, I encourage you to try it. Invest the $10 in plugs. You can start by drilling out the solid plugs you have on the propeller now. Start with a small diameter hole and test. Then drill a larger hole. If you try this several times, when finished you can put new solid plugs back in place for $10, and return to where you started. You'll spend more than that on the fuel burn collecting the data. |
| Peter |
Is the boat not as responsive due to pitch/power or grip? It's just the difference in pitch that is causing that. The Enertia has higher pitch so it will feel less responsive when you change the throttle. It's just like a car in 1st gear versus 2nd or 2nd versus 3rd, etc. The car will feel more responsive to throttle inputs in the lower gear. |
| littleblue |
Since we're discussing engine power/load; the Enertia seemed to make the engine a little quieter, it sounded as if it was under a little more load. I was therefor surprised that the boat was holding plane at the lowest rpm and tied for the lowest speed at plane as well. |
| jimh |
A boat can be made to stay on a very slow plane if there is a lot of stern lift. Usually this is created by applying lift from trim tabs and by tucking the engine in as much as possible. Stern lift can also come from the propeller design, although it is still a murky and mysterious method that provides that lift. On that basis, if a particular propeller was able to keep the boat on plane at a low speed, I would tend to think it probably was generating some stern lift. The stated attributes of the ENERTIA propeller are mainly related to two aspects: --the material used to manufacture the ENERTIA is special. The alloy was supposed to be protected by a patent. Initial announcements said a patent had been applied for to protect the alloy. I have not seen any more talk about the patent. I don't recall hearing about it. The alloy may be something different, but as far as I know it is not protected by patent. --the special material allowed for the blades to flex under load. This never made sense to me because previously it had always been mentioned that blade flexing under load was a bad characteristic. Apparently on the ENERTIA it is said to be a good characteristic. I have no argument with the theory that propeller design is something of an engineering art form. It is clear that Mercury has a lot of experience with propellers. My impression of the whole propeller business is that the people who make them talk in a strange language and use odd ways to describe things. I think they do this in order to obscure the real features of the propellers that contribute to good performance. If they just came out and said, "This works this way because we did this," then everyone would know what they did and could easily copy it. Instead the always talk about "un-obtanium" materials, and strange characteristics like bow lift, stern lift, or simultaneous bow and stern lift, and a lot of other hocus-pocus language. The best method I have found to find a good propeller match is to actually test individual propellers on your boat. It sounds like on your boat the ENERTIA is giving good results. |
| L H G |
Jim - With respect to your question "But what do I know?", the answer regarding Mercury prop venting is "not much". You have never been in my Outrage 25 with highly vented Revolution-4 props. With them, the boat is a completely different animal - it accelerates faster, goes faster and rides much better. Back then, I was still using the original 1989 Laser II props, now long obsolete for large boats like a 25 Whaler, and no longer recommended by Mercury for my application. Blade area on the Lasers is too small for an application like a 25 Outrage. But back in 1989, that was Mercury's best recreational performance prop, with fixed vents before PVS, and Mirage props (Mirage Plus not yet out) were only for stern drives, for which they were originally invented. So your venting comments are from a zero real life experience as far as I can tell, since you use solid vent plugs on your own Mirage Plus. As a matter of fact, most Mirage Plus applications require solid vents because of slippage problems. I have never seen a boat with vented Mirage Plus propellers. Early Mirage's did not have the fixed vents, and the current Quicksilver equivalent does not either. As for Mercury's vent plugs, on a high tech, highly raked prop like the Tempest Plus, Enertia or Rev-4, they can be of value, which is why they are there in the first place. Since one has this valuable option (that no other brand of propeller offers), why not try it. It's a cheap and easy experiment, and the solid (closed off) plugs are always there as a back-up. I have noticed that on larger center console boats, with twin or triple Verados, the Rev-4 and Enertia props are run with solid plugs. But that is probably because the supercharged Verados have instant throttle response and faster more powerful low end acceleration than 2-strokes. So they don't need the blade venting that the 2-strokes do. It takes a LOT of power to turn my highly raked, 4-bladed Rev-4's in 21" pitch. They actually run like 23's. Take a look at these large props - most gearcases can't even handle them: Note that with these, or an Enertia, trim tab steering torque anodes can't be used on most engines. A flat plate anode is required. The only way venting will hurt low speed planing is when you are over-vented. Actually, that is what determines how much venting you can take. When low speed planing gets worse, reduce vent size, but not until. On my 25, the super-vented Rev-4's hold plane for low speed cruising the best of any prop I have tried. The boat will cruise along all day at 2000 RPM and 20 MPH. 22 MPH is ideal for an easy ride with barely audible engine sound. On my classic, easy to plane Outrage 19 hull, with 150 Merc and 19" Laser II running large vent plugs, I suspected low speed plane was too high. So I switched to solid plugs, and low speed plane dropped about 3 mph, with no loss in acceleration. So in that instance, I was needlessly vented. I am going to try an Enertia prop on this boat this season. Venting is the same as propeller choices - experiment to find the best solution, like LittleBlue has already done. Good luck - Incidentally, that's a beautiful 22 you have. |
| jimh |
Larry--As I made clear, my experience with PVS was with your boat, which behaved exactly as I described. Thanks for explaining that you abandoned that configuration and found something that worked better. I though the rubber-band drive was not particularly a benefit. The boat would slowly gather speed once on plane as the rubber-band effect dissipated, and you would have to be always on the throttle to pull back to the engines to lower speed. I can see why you changed to something else. Also, thanks for agreeing with me that the PVS vents should be tried. I think I already said that two or three times. Larry, you are right that my experience with PVS-vented propellers is limited. I have not tried them on my MIRAGEplus. Although I know a lot of people using Mercury propellers on their moderate speed Boston Whaler boats, and I have driven their boats from time to time, you are the only person I know who uses the PVS vents. I know you have five boats, but I am putting you down on the survey as one person who uses PVS vents, not as five people. Maybe some of the other people with Mercury propellers who use the PVS vents and have found them advantageous will join in. |
| jimh |
Re the ENERTIA: I forgot to mention perhaps the most important attribute: thinner blades. The unobtainium alloy--actually once called X7 alloy--is said to permit thinner blades. The thinner blades are likely involved in any improvement in performance, too. |
| Teak Oil |
I have a 1992 22 Outrage and have the exact same kicker and can say littleblue's boat is running very good numbers with that Enertia prop. I have a 225-HP Evinrude and run 48-MPH running a 19-pitch prop. The only difference is I have a radar arch creating a fair amount of drag at higher speeds. I have tried a 20-inch Raker and it is too tall for four people onboard. An 18-inch Raker is great for when I am going to have a full load of passengers and fuel. I may have to try an Enertia based on your report. Thanks. |
| jimh |
Littleblue describes the MIRAGEplus: "Throttle response was best with this prop. Whether that was due to the pitch or the "grip" offered by its larger diameter I do not know." L H G describes the MIRAGEplus: "As a matter of fact, most Mirage Plus applications require solid vents because of slippage problems." I have never seen any sign of the MIRAGEplus losing grip on my boat. One of the reasons I like the MIRAGEplus is its ability to run so well and stay so well hooked-up in the aerated water that is found in my boat hull's wake. (By the way, this is another reason why I don't think PVS vents are necessary for my boat. There is a lot of aerated water around the propeller already, coming off the hull due to the set back of the engine about 2.5-feet and its elevated mounting height compared to being on the transom.] From the comments of LittleBlue, I infer he is not experiencing any slip. Perhaps Larry could explain on what basis he has determined that the MIRAPGEplus suffers from "slippage problems"? Re fuel economy: I see that LittleBlue has no way to measure fuel economy in real time with a flow meter or other fuel sensor. As a general rule I find it impossible to get any meaningful comparisons of fuel economy without having actual instrumentation measuring the real-time fuel flow. Reports that fuel economy seemed better or measurements made by random tank refills are typically just speculative or much too coarse in their precision to detect the kind of small differences that are likely to exist among these propellers. It seems somewhat hard to select a propeller on the basis of it giving good fuel economy when there is no way to really measure fuel economy. I am not sure how you are going to make a decision based on fuel economy without measuring it. One of the reasons I like the MIRAGEplus is because it gives good fuel economy. I know how it compares to other propellers because I have the instrumentation and have collected the data. |
| littleblue |
Yes, the Enertia seemed to provide good grip. A few characteristics for the Enertia that I missed. - The slow speed control was not good at all. Reverse/maneuvering around the docks I felt an immediate loss of control. - This prop felt closer to the Stiletto in that trimming the motor up and down provided a large range of movement. The Mirage and Vensura had less movement range.
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| Commander Coo1 |
Nice write up about the props. I am running the Enertia 15 on my boat and like its characteristics better than any other I have tried. The only issue with it is that my fuel economy is a bit worse when it gets rough and i am heavily loaded. It also seems to burn a ton of fuel at a low speed plane. The Mirage plus and Rebel seemed to get about 3.2 mpg in similar conditions where as the Enertia gets about 2.9-3.0. This may have been caused by the addition of drop fins on my trim tabs. I plan to remove them and see if it makes much difference, but i doubt it. -James |
| Tom W Clark |
Jasper -- Thanks for the data. It's really helpful for all of us when data like this is collected and presented for all to see. |
| Tom W Clark |
PVS Vent Plugs: Don't bother testing propeller vent holes on your boat unless you have time and fuel to burn. They will be of no use on your boat or the vast majority of Whalers, for that matter. Vent holes can be helpful on some marginally powered boats that have four stroke power where there is not enough torque generated at lower RPM to satisfactorily accelerate a boat onto plane. For a two stroke powered Whaler, there is almost no situation where propeller vent holes help *except* for a boat where there is a sudden and substantial added load at the same time you need fast acceleration. When pulling a water skier out of the hole, in others words. Vent holes can do nothing to increase top speed; they are an aid to acceleration, that is all. They can contribute propeller ventilation at slow planing speeds and that can be a real drag as all you are doing letting the prop slip when you don't want it to. Running at minimum planing speed in rough seas is an example of when you do not want the propeller to loose grip and vent holes will sometimes do exactly that. |
| Tom W Clark |
Motor Mounting Height: Jasper's 1998 Mercury 200 EFI is mounted "One Hole Up" o This is the absolute lowest motor mounting position one would ever mount a single outboard on a 22 foot Whaler. It was the recommended mounting position back in the late 1970s when the hull was introduced and aluminum propellers were mostly all we had. This position will leave the A/V plate solidly buried at planing speeds. Today that motor should be mounted two or three holes up, depending on the propeller used. It helps with the testing of these four propellers because it allowed them to all be used at one motor mounting position. I guarantee you that the VenSura will begin to loose grip even if raised one more set of bolt holes. It cannot tolerate any mounting position where the blade tips break the surface. If it does, it just blows out. The VenSura is good on sterndrive powered boats where the drive *is* solidly buried. |
| Tom W Clark |
quote: Well, that depends on what model of four blade propeller you are talking about. There is a lot more to propeller selection than the number of blades. Jasper's tests illustrate this well. The VenSura *is* a four blade propeller. |
| Tom W Clark |
Propeller Slip: Let's look at the numbers Stiletto Advantage -- 5500 RPM @ 46.7 MPH (12.3 % slip) This shows that propeller slip is not an absolute gauge of anything; it depends on the model of propeller being used. The MIRAGEplus has the lowest calculated slip. I would expect that because I typically see a range for this propeller of 5 to 8 percent, so 5.5 is right in there. The Enertia has the next lowest at 13.9 percent. Again this is not surprising. I typically see 10 to 15 percent slip with the Enertia. Likewise, the four blade VenSura, at 16.1 percent is in the normal range. I've seen slip between 10 and 18 percent with is model (a.k.a. Mercury Offshore, Quicksilver Typhoon). This also illustrates how general rule-of-thumbs like "a four blade prop grips better" are not always helpful. It depends on exactly what model of propeller you are talking about. The Stiletto Advantage slip number does surprise me. The large tube version of this model typically yields the same slip as the MIRAGEplus]. I saw 4 percent slip on my own boat when I tested the 19" Advantage. |
| littleblue |
Wow, so theoretically I have potential for better performance and ride if I raise the engine. I've never fiddled with the engine heights on my previous boats. My 19' Outrage had it's motors mounted with blind holes, I really wanted to raise those but did not want to pay for two sets of brackets. I'm willing to have the motor raised on this one. I need to pay attention next outing to the AV plate when on plane. For some reason I felt as if it was mounted at a decent height just looking at the gap between the lip of the transom and motor mount (I know that doesn't necessarily indicate anything of value). Looks like I only have one more hole to go up? |
| Tom W Clark |
That's a different photo than this one you linked to earlier: http://s7.beta.photobucket.com/user/Triton_38/media/1993%20Outrage%2022/ 26b2d20b.jpg.html The zincs threw off my perspective in the dark. It is still hard to tell but it looks like you are "Two Holes Up" now (bolts through the middle hole, 1-1/2" space from top of transom to motor) and you could certainly go up on more. |
| jimh |
Tom Clark recommends:
quote: Tom--I got as far as buying three PVS vent plugs about seven years ago. I think it cost me $5 at that time. I have had them for seven years, and have never gotten around to trying them. I think that is because I don't have that much (boating) time to burn. I am so pleased with the performance of the MIRAGEplus that I can't anticipate any benefit from using vents with it. My engine accelerates easily, the engine reaches the upper limit of the recommended range--actually right on the sweet spot of RPM suggested--and the propeller hangs on in all kinds of seas and rough conditions. My top speed, somewhere around 44-MPH, is already faster than I care to go unless it is dead calm. As you suggest, I can't see any possible way the vents would improve my MIRAGEplus. |
| L H G |
As I have said, opening up vent plugs on lower raked Mirage Plus props, which are mostly designed to be run fully submerged as Jim and Tom are doing, and in Sterndrive applications, is a waste of time. The props come from the factory with solid vents, which pretty much says how Mercury thinks they should be used. Conversely, Laser II props come from the factory with small or medium plugs installed. The higher raked, most recent designs like the Trophy PLus, Enertia, Tempest Plus, Fury and Rev-4 are the ones that MAY benefit from the vents. Didn't I notice that the popular Stiletto props often used with the 90 E-tecs come with factory fixed vent holes? Why on a prop for such a low HP engine and only 42 MPH top speed? |
| jimh |
Larry--Are you saying your entire theory of how PVS vents work is based on the outcome of one engine-boat-propeller test using a propeller not made by Mercury? Could you lay out the basis for that? I don't see how any one test of a particular boat-engine-propeller could cause the theory of how PVS vents work to change. As far as I can tell, I have complete and thorough understanding of PVS vents. I have read the Mercury literature. I have read many comments about PVS vents. The PVS vents behave as follows: --they have no effect on low speed performance At low speed, PVS vents have no effect because there are no exhaust gases coming through the propeller hub. Please refer to my video that clearly shows this. There is no effect from PVS vents. At high speed PVS vents have no effect because the exhaust gases are prevented from escaping through the vents by the Venturi effect of the high speed water flow around the hub. I have not recorded this on video, but this is what Mercury says will happen. There is no effect from PVS vents At some intermediate speeds, where exhaust gases begin to flow but the boat speed has not increased enough to create the Venturi effect, exhaust gases will flow both through the main hub and through the vents. Again, I have not recorded this, but this is what Mercury says will happen. This causes an effect. The effect is to cause the propeller to spin in aerated water. A propeller spinning in aerated water is easier to turn than a propeller spinning in solid water. In the speed range where exhaust gases escape through the vents the propeller is easier to turn. It also produces less thrust. This must be true. Thrust is based on the mass of water accelerated. Since the aerated water is less dense than solid water, it creates less thrust. The effect of the PVS vents is to create less thrust during the boat speed range when exhaust gases escape from the vents. The above is what I have experienced first hand. I describe it as the rubber-band effect, because the boat behaves like the propeller shaft is a rubber band. The engine spins rapidly, twisting the rubber band. The energy applied does not translate into thrust. Slowly, as the boat accelerates to a faster boat speed, the rubber band effect dissipates and the propeller begins to return to normal. The PVS vents are actually worse than a rubber band. With a rubber band you would store up some energy in the rubber band. With the PVS vents you just lose the thrust in the aerated water. The whole purpose of PVS vents is to allow engines that cannot handle the full load of the propeller during certain engine speed ranges to temporarily shed the propeller load at those engine speed ranges. This allows the engine to accelerate to a higher engine speed, where the engine can produce more power. The PVS vents then begin to stop venting, returning the propeller load to full. This is how PVS vents work. It is not necessary for me to explain anything about a particular boat-motor-propeller combination in order to explain how PVS vents work. I think Larry is out of rational arguments, and when he gets to that point, he tries to change the subject to E-TEC and throw some FUD in to confuse people. |
| Tom W Clark |
Contrary to what Larry reports, not all Stiletto propellers use vent holes. The Stiletto Advantage, including the one tested by Jasper, have fixed 1/4" drilled vent holes that are no benefit to either Jasper's Outrage 22 or the typical Montauk. They do little harm either though I advise folks who are concerned about undesirable slippage to fill the vent holes with silicon caulk to seal them. On the Montauks it doesn't seem to make a difference one way or the other. |
| jimh |
L H G writes:
quote: In this comment, L H G seems to be implying that propellers, which are designed to be run at elevated heights with portions of their blades out of the water, may benefit from PVS vents. I think L H G may be correct, but further explanation is required. Allow me to explain. If a particular propeller is marked with a pitch that is representative of the effective pitch that will be produced when the boat is operating at high speed with the propeller running at a mounting height so the blades are partially out of the water, the pitch marking for the propeller is likely to understate the actual pitch of the blades. The blades probably have greater actual pitch than indicated, but are marked lower in order to compensate for all the lost thrust from running in aerated water when on plane at high speed. At high-speed plane the stern of boat will be dramatically lifted. This is what raises the propeller out of the water. On these same boats, when not on plane at high speed, the boat will sink much deeper in the water, particularly at the stern. This will immerse the propeller completely in the water. I have never seen a boat where the engine mounting height was so high that at displacement speed the propeller was operating with the upper blade tips out of the water. For these very high speed boats which will experience a substantial hull lift from their transition to high speed planing from displacement mode, then use of PVS vents may be helpful. The PVS vents will spoil the thrust of the propeller while still fully submerged during acceleration when the boat is transitioning to plane, giving the same effect as a reduced pitch that will occur when the boat finally reaches it very high-speed plane with the propeller operating partially above the water. This is a reasonable situation where PVS vents may be useful. But I don't find this situation is at all likely in operation of Boston Whaler boats. Generally Boston Whaler boats do not transition to plane from displacement mode with so much hull rise that the relationship of the propeller to the water surface changes so much that the propeller goes from operating completely submerged to operating with its upper blade tips above the water. The result is that the propeller, even on plane, continues to behave as if were fully submerged. L H G also says:
quote: I have experience with using the REVOLUTION4 propeller that L H G mentions. My observation is that its marked pitch is lower than its actual pitch. This is based on using a REVOLUTION4 of the same pitch as several other propellers used in testing. The load of the REVOLUTION4 was much greater than the other propellers of the same marked pitch, as indicated by a very significant drop in engine speed at full throttle. The most reasonable inference from this observation is that the pitch of the REVOLUTION4 is marked lower than the actual pitch. Based on the advice offered by L H G, it would seem that the REVOLUTION4 is probably one of the propellers intended to be run at a high mounting height so that when on-plane some of the propeller blade is no longer submerged. Unfortunately, I don't think that the REVOLUTION4 is used that way in most applications on Boston Whaler boats, because in most applications a Boston Whaler boat never gets to a planing speed where the propeller is running above the surface. This gets us back to the conclusion that Tom has also offered: the PVS vent is just not likely to provide much advantage to Boston Whaler boats. Boston Whaler hulls were not designed with the intent to be operated at speeds over 60-MPH. They are not bass boats that can rise dramatically out of the water, run on a little hull pad, and have the propeller operating only partially submerged. PVS vents may be very useful for boats that operate like that, but I don't think they're likely to be of much benefit for 25 to 30-MPH operation of a Boston Whaler. |
| littleblue |
I haven't run the boat again yet but here are some better photo's of the engine's mounting height. Should it be lifted another hole up? |
| littleblue |
I haven't run the boat again yet but here are some better photo's of the engine's mounting height. Should it be lifted another hole up? |
| littleblue |
Looking at the bottom set of holes it looks like it's "two holes" up. |
| Tom W Clark |
Yes, if you are using the Enertia, it could easily go up on more set of holes to the "Three Holes Up" position. |
| littleblue |
I plan to have the engine raised when I bring it to the mechanic for yearly inspection. For a professional shop this should only be 1/2 hour or so of labor right? |
| Peter |
If it takes a professional shop more than about 20 minutes, find a new professional shop. |
| Tom W Clark |
Half hour of labor is about right. |
| L H G |
Maybe so, but for a professional job when the engine is directly on the transom, I would want the transom scum cleaned up under the engine bracket and on the outer hull, plus the old caulking scraped and removed from the bolt holes on both the engine and hull. |
| littleblue |
It's scheduled for a lift next Sat so we'll see what happens. Larry, anything you suggest I ask the mechanic to look out for on the motor (in terms of servicing)? Last spring I had the typical lower unit oil change, plugs changed, thermostat changed, poppit valve changed, and everything greased/lubed. Since you have two of these motors, maybe you have some insight to any other preventative things to look out for. |
| L H G |
According to my trusted saltwater mechanic in Ft Lauderdale, there are two things to watch out for that he has seen in other similar engines they service: 1. Head gasket deterioration with saltwater use. For an engine the age of yours, it's good preventive maintenance, and not expensive. I had mine done about 4 years ago just to be safe, and they did show a little corrosion deterioration, although probably would not have caused a problem for several more years. It's about $150/engine. 2. Look for yoke and steering arm corrosion. With the engine trimmed partially up, grab the lower unit and see if there is up/down play. There should be none, but if there is movement, the yoke (bottom of the engine support on the transom bracket) may need replacement. I'm told that's an expensive job, about $1600, but if it fails underway, you can get the engine powerhead in your lap! 3. Make sure oil injection plastic hoses are in good shape. Other than those risks, the engines are pretty much bulletproof. Mine just run and run and run. Remember, southeast FL is a much more corrosive environment for outboards than the US Pacific coast. |
| littleblue |
Motor has been raised, I did some testing with it today. Similar conditions to previous test, didn't get speed for each rpm but I did get a new max speed of 48.8 trimmed way up and against the wind. RPM's were slightly over red line at 5800-5900 so I didn't stay there for long. I did seem to pick up about 200 rpm. I was able to test in a number of different wave conditions and going in a straight line I did not have any problems cavitating even with the motor trimmed up. I did experience cavitation when making sharp turns. Trimmed down, the turn was acceptable. The speed I'm getting out of this prop is really impressive, 4000 rpm is giving me 34-35 mph. I'm used to knowing how fast I'm going by listening to the motor, but with this prop I keep under estimating my speed. How it does with 4 guys and fishing gear remains to be seen. |
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