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Author Topic:   Mercury's New 200, 225-HP FOURSTROKE Not VERADO
jimh posted 07-21-2013 11:14 AM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
Please give me the URL to the web article in which Mercury Marine has announced that they are going to be introducing two new engines, a 200-HP and 225-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO engine based on the 3.0-liter in-line four-cylinder engine block. I have been reading so many comments from informed readers about these new engines, including references to public statements from Mercury Marine about them, that I am keen to read more about them.
ericflys posted 07-21-2013 05:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
What they have said is:

"All-new outboards, leveraging platform and component commonality with the 150, are in development"

"Mercury already introduces a significant new product on average every 4-6 weeks but we are investing in human resources, facilities and new development methodologies to accelerate the pace of new product introductions even further"

"Mercury’s warranty rates are at record low levels"

"Mercury’s ten-yearproductplanreinforcesthat heritage and includes multiple new and exciting products in all segments, delivered to the market at an accelerating pace"

"Mercury’s new150FourStroke has exceeded the most aggressive expectations for market penetration and production volumes. Warranty performance is already at the level of our best mature products"

http://www.brunswick.com/investors/

sosmerc posted 07-21-2013 09:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
Yesterday I was helping a neighbor "re-prop" his 25ft. Conquest with single 250hp Verado. This is actually the first time I have ever been on the water in a Verado equipped boat. I don't work on them because they are generally mounted on boats that are much larger than I can handle in my small shop. Mercury also frowns upon "independent" non-Verado certified mechanics from working on them. I have all the manuals and I have studied them from a distance for years.
But again, this was my first real encounter. WOW! Unbelievable performance and the ease of control with the fly-by-wire shift and throttle and the power steering. The engine is so darn quiet that everytime I throttled down from high speed I really thought the engine had died.......but it was still running and I had to look at it to see the pee stream to believe it!
I've worked on outboards for over 30+ years and I've seen and experienced quite alot......but this engine has really set the bar !! I know they are extremely complex and have been less than trouble-free since their introduction. Mostly gearcase issues due to the tremendous power they generate. Proper rigging and batteries are also essential. I would guess that the Verado is rather like Boeing's introduction of the 787. It's so new and so advanced that there are bound to be teething issues until every facet of the new tech can be tested under continuous real-world conditions. But I must say that I am truly impressed and look forward to what Mercury will come up with next. (and I realize that the competition is close behind and gaining all the time.......to everyone's benefit)
jimh posted 07-21-2013 09:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
SOS'--I completely agree with you about the in-line six-cylinder VERADO. They are great engines. I have been saying this ever since they were introduced in c.2003. And, yes, the electronic throttle and shift are great. I have that on my E-TEC and I love it. It is a great improvement. And I remember the first time my wife, Chris, ran the boat with the E-TEC. It was so much quieter than our old engine, she asked me if the engine was running. The E-TEC was a big improvement in sound quality. No, not as quiet as the VERADO at idle. The VERADO is, hands down, the most quiet engine I have ever (not) heard.

With all those fantastic qualities for the VERADO, you have to wonder why Mercury Marine is going to bring out a competing line of not-VERADO four-stroke-cycle engines to sell against their own products.

What really confuses me is how the 3.0-liter engine is going to be pushed to 225-HP. I think it makes no sense. If a 225-HP engine is needed, get a VERADO.

Peter posted 07-21-2013 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
quote:
What really confuses me is how the 3.0-liter engine is going to be pushed to 225-HP.

They are going to feed it a heavy diet of propane. ;)

jimh posted 07-21-2013 10:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
As far as I can figure, about the only reason Mercury Marine is going to be thinking about developing their 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO into more models is for re-power applications. There are virtually no re-power's done with VERADO--well unless replacing a GEN-1 VERADO. Installing a VERADO is much too complicated and too expensive. I was just talking with a Mercury dealer today on this very subject. They summed it up this way: "No one with an old MAKO is going to want to spend what it will cost to put a VERADO on their transom." That is a cogent observation. We can see, here, with Boston Whaler classic hulls, how few have been re-powered with a VERADO. I only really know of one instance. (By the way, this VERADO re-power has grabbed my interest so much that I am going to do a special article on it, as it's the only one like it that I have seen. Watch for it soon.)

Mercury must be getting killed in the re-power market due to the complexity of a VERADO installation, and not to mention the weight. They must have figured that the only solution was to develop an entirely new engine, with an entirely new approach, throwing out all the wonderful engineering and design of the VERADO in favor of something cheaper, simpler, and something their dealers could install on old MAKO's and make a profit in re-powers. As it stands now, there just are not very many boats re-powered with VERADO engines. Again, the reasons are obvious:

Problems with VERADO re-power:

--weight
--size
--all new steering system
--power boost pump mandatory
--big batteries mandatory
--electronic throttle and shift mandatory
--Smartcraft mandatory

When you compare this with E-TEC, you see that E-TEC kills the VERADO in every one of those categories. The E-TEC is lighter, smaller, uses existing steering, does not need a steering boost pump, can even start and run without a battery, and uses conventional gauges.

I think Mercury Marine could see this huge advantage of the E-TEC in the re-power market. And the same goes for all the other brands, in a lesser way, like Yamaha, Honda, and Suzuki. For the most part, other than the huge size and weight problems, the other brands avoided the VERADO re-power problems. Mercury also must have seen how new boat sales have been terrible the past three years. They need a motor they can sell to guys with old MAKO's.

Of course, in their investor-oriented promotions they don't come out and admit they were getting just about ZERO percent of the re-power market with VERADO and this new -not-VERADO engine they are talking about must be their solution.

When Mercury Marine and Brunswick brag to investors about how well the FOURSTROKE not VERADO engine is selling already, you'd think the question that an investor would naturally ask would be "What took you so long to figure this out?"

EaglesPDX posted 07-21-2013 10:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Comment deleted. It contained no information and tended only to provoke arguements--jimh]
K Albus posted 07-21-2013 10:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for K Albus  Send Email to K Albus     
I was under the impression, after reading several recent posts, that the Mercury 150 FourStroke already puts out approximately 225 horsepower.
EaglesPDX posted 07-21-2013 11:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Comment deleted. It contained no information and tended only to provoke arguements--jimh]
jimh posted 07-21-2013 11:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please, I ask a simple question. Where does Mecury Marine say publicly the horsepower of the new models they will introduce that will use the 3.0-liter engine of the 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERDADO model?

EaglesPDX posted 07-22-2013 09:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Comment deleted. It contained no information and tended only to provoke arguements--jimh]
jimh posted 07-22-2013 09:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please, I ask a simple question. Where does Mecury Marine say publicly the horsepower of the new models they will introduce that will use the 3.0-liter engine of the 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERDADO model?
EaglesPDX posted 07-22-2013 10:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Comment deleted. It contained no information and tended only to provoke arguements--jimh]
EaglesPDX posted 07-22-2013 11:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
The 150HP 3.0L Four Stroke XL 25" sells for $12,110
The 150HP 1.7L Verado XL 25" sells for $13,375

I got those from Stevens Marine published price list. Prices may go up or down but I think the differential between the two engines will remain the same.

http://www.stevensmarine.com/models/mercury-marine/

Mercury needed a less expensive engine to compete with Yamaha in the 200-150 range.

The new Yamaha I4 2.8L and the new Mercury I4 3.0L represent the latest and greatest in outboard engineering.

Peter posted 07-22-2013 11:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
quote:
Mercury needed a less expensive engine to compete with Yamaha in the 200-150 range.

You forgot substantially lighter and less complex.

quote:
The new Yamaha I4 2.8L and the new Mercury I4 3.0L represent the latest and greatest in outboard engineering.

Too funny. The Mercury I4 3.0L is early to mid 1980s era technology. The Yamaha I4 2.8L is mid to late 1980s era technology when cars with such technology wore badges that said "Twin Cam".

jimh posted 07-22-2013 12:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Thanks for the prices for the 150-HP engine, but that is old news.

I want to know about the 175, 200, and 225 models based on this same technology that you and others have been speculating about. It seems rather odd that after boasting about these engines, no one can find a single word in print from Mercury about them, other than the vague generalities passed off to stock analysts as a way to say the VERADO is not working out so well these days.

L H G posted 07-22-2013 05:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
Verado is a huge seller. We all know that. Whaler alone moves a lot of them. [Changed topic to Evinrude. Please start a new thread about Evinrude. We are discussing Mercury and the rumors that are being created about new engines. See you in the new thread to discuss Evinrude. --jimh]
EaglesPDX posted 07-22-2013 06:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Comment deleted. It contained no information and tended only to provoke arguements--jimh]
quote:
You forgot substantially lighter and less complex.
Verado 200 same weight range as Yamaha 200 V6 and Verado has done well vs. competition there. All the new engines are complex, nature of the evolution.

The I4's, Mercury 3.0L rated 200 and the new Yamaha 2.8L rated 200, put pressure on Honda and Suzuki at the 200HP spot.

Suzuki could bump it's 2.8L 175HP I4 up to 200HP but Honda has less room to move with it's 150HP being a 2.3L.

jimh posted 07-22-2013 11:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Larry--can you dream up some data about VERADO engine sales for re-power? It is clear to me, based on reports provided here on continuouswave, that there are very few re-power applications.

A Mercury dealer said to me in a conversation (just yesterday) that they have not sold any VERADO engines for re-power, even though they are completely qualified and certified. ""No one with an old MAKO is going to want to spend what it will cost to put a VERADO on their transom," was how it was explained to me.

Also, maybe you can point to the public statements by Mercury Marine about the horsepower of the new models. Point to the statements about the in-line six model, too. I believe you started the rumor on that model.

ericflys posted 07-23-2013 02:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
It is possible that not many Whalers are repowered with Verado, I only know of three in my area. Using this site as a measure of how many boats are repowered with Verados is absurd.
L H G posted 07-23-2013 07:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
Actually Eric I have recently seen at least 20 older Whalers repowered with Verados, both L-6 and L-4 models. A recently saw two grey police boats, non-Whaler (Mako, Contender, or something like that) both repowered with twin 200 HP L-4 Verados. Prior power was Yamaha according one of the officers I talked to.

I also regularly see a 90's 24 Outrage re-powered with a 250 Verado. The guy loves it and says it is great power for the hull.

I have seen three or four Whaler 27's repowered with twin L-6 Verados where I boat in FL

Last summer in Harbor Springs MI I saw a classic 20 Outrage repowered (probably by Irish) with a single 200 L-4 Verado.

In SE Florida, the popular Verado repower engine is the 300. That seems to be the biggest seller in the line.

Nobody here knows what new engines Mercury will be bringing to market, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that rarely is a brand new engine platform only put out in one HP rating. The new 3.0 liter platform could very well show up in ratings from 135-175 HP. Besides new engine HP, they may be even stretching the R & D budget to introduce graphite colored paint jobs on the Optimax bass engines.

jimh posted 07-23-2013 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Eric--I disagree with you. Many boats owned by participants on this website are re-powered, so the engines they use provide a very good sample of what choices are made. Why would there be something about this website that would disqualify the choices made for re-power from being representative? I think it would be interesting to hear your thinking on that. As far as I can tell, the choices people make to re-power a Boston Whaler are a completely valid sample of what engines are being used for re-powers.
jimh posted 07-23-2013 09:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I only know of one Boston Whaler re-power with an four-cylinder VERADO: Tom's Outrage 18 boat in New York. (I think the four-cylinder VERADO is really going to suffer in sales from competition with its own brand, the 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO.) But the four-cylinder VERADO does not suffer from the same drawbacks as the big six-cylinder. It is not as big, not as heavy, does not need a new steering system, and does need a power boost pump. It only has about half as many impediments for re-power as the six-cylinder.

A fellow sent me some photos of his Outrage 25 re-powered with six-cylinder VERADO. I will be posting them soon. That is the only six-cylinder VERADO re-power of a classic Boston Whaler that I know.

Of course, I don't count any instance when a VERADO is used as a re-power for an existing VERADO. This extravagance with tax payers' money with annual re-powering of Home Land Security agency boats and other law enforcement agency boats with new VERADO engines is meaningless in terms of what choices a boater is likely to make.

I stand by my assessment: there are precious few instances in which a six-cylinder VERADO is installed as a re-power.

Larry--I am very surprised you see so many VERADO engines in Florida, as I hear they are not holding up too well in saltwater. That's from a Mercury dealer.

ericflys posted 07-23-2013 09:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
I stand by my comments, and I assume your response was only to provoke responses from others. Boston Whaler boats only make up a small percentage of the repower market, so even if this site was representative of Boston Whaler boats that were repowered, which it's not, looking at Boston Whalers as the only boat in the repower universe, will give you skewed information. As I alluded to before, it's possible that Verado was not built to target the Boston Whaler repower market. In my area there are a lot of boats repowered with Verados, just not Whalers. In my opinion, most Whalers repowered are of boats sized smaller than the range of HP the Verado's are offered in, so the Verado doesn't even come close to being offered in all the HP sizes to capalize on the Whaler market.

In my estimation, there have been about 500 Whalers repowered in my area in the last 10 years. With the breakdown (again just opinion based on observation) being about 50 Yami, 30 Merc, 10 Suzuki, 9.9 Honda, and .01 Evinrude. And this was with the same dealer carrying all the brands except Merc which was done by another outfit. A few years ago that dealer stopped selling the Evinrude because they just weren't selling, their mechanics (factory trained mind you) hated working on them compared to the other brands they were certified on, and the demand for two strokes was steadily decreasing.

martyn1075 posted 07-23-2013 10:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
There is no question Yamaha especially has taken many sales away from not just Mercury but other companies as well. On the other hand mercury still has many loyal supporters. Somewhere along the line Mercury took a bit of a hit on their products likely early days of Optimax line I think really stung the business. When Mercury started to get their Verado line going (good decision). The Yamaha guys were already hammering away on those uneasy clients but had already established such big part of the market. I have to say I was not a huge supporter of the Mercury Optimax on my current boat and was one of those nope maybe I will sell them but I'm sure glad I didn't. I have to say I'm very impressed with the product so much I would consider a new engine from them IF that ever happens. They just need to win back that confidence. That's tough to do. I also agree the new Fourstroke not Verado will be offered in other HP versions. It may be simple in design nothing earth shattering here but simple is good if it gets the numbers and is built well. I'm not sure many should really complain what they put in under the cowling.

Martyn

ericflys posted 07-23-2013 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
Adding to my previous post, I will say the Optimax accounted for many more repowers that the Evinrude, but still very few, maybe around 1%. Regardless of the merits of the DFI twostrokes, very few boats, including Whalers, are repowered with them compared to fourstrokes. Market share is a funny thing though, with certain brands and engine types falling in and out of favor. For almost a decade in my area, in my estimate, Suzuki's made up for 90% of outboard sales, and on these forums, you don't hear much about Whalers with Suzuki's on them them. Boston Whalers made up close to every skiff sold here for decades, (I did say skiff, boats with cabins sold here were mainly SeaSports and Parkers) and then with the advent of the Mercury tie in, the sales dropped to zero as the dealer that carried them, sold all the brands except Mercury, and dropped the Whalers, and picked up several other brands.

Regardless of how simple or complex the new 150 Mercury Fourstoke is, the performance speaks for itself and it does represent the latest clean sheet design 150 out there, it is the most modern 150 HP outboard available.

L H G posted 07-24-2013 02:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
I have seen literally thousands of Verados in SE and SW Florida since they were first introduced in 2005 with DTS controls. They are all over the place on high end boats, of which there are plenty. The Verado is not a poor man's outboard - and was never meant to be so. Mercury's anti-corrosion paint jobs and aluminum alloys are the best in the business. If you're even being honest (not trolling)I'd say your freshwater Mercury dealer has no clue. You already said he hasn't sold any Verados.

I have five Merc's used in salt water extensively, the newest being 1997, and they look beautiful, no corrosion at all. Most of you have seen the photos. Almost all of the few E-tecs I see down there, have badly yellowed out mids and lowers. Suzuki's seem to not hold up well in tropical salt either.

EaglesPDX posted 07-24-2013 03:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
quote:
martyn1975 supporters. Somewhere along the line Mercury took a bit of a hit on their products likely early days of Optimax line I think really stung the business.

A very speciific spon along the line, when Yamaha introduced four cycle engines, obsoleteing two cycle outboards. Evinrude/Johnson went out of business. Mercury hung on but purchased engines to sell from Yamaha until Mercury developed their own four cycles and made a nice comeback.

A nice US mfg. success story.

K Albus posted 07-24-2013 08:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for K Albus  Send Email to K Albus     
Please give me the URL to the web article in which Mercury Marine, any Mercury Marine dealer, or anybody else, has announced that VERADO engines are not holding up too well in saltwater. I am keen to read more about this.
EaglesPDX posted 07-24-2013 09:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for EaglesPDX    
[Deleted for answering the question again]

[Moderator's note. The above is what was actually posted. It is this sort of stupid comment which will soon earn this author a special place. If you insist on making argumentative and useless comments, your participation here will be ending. I do not have time to fool with your nonsense further. Please try to contribute information, not argumentative nonsense--jimh]

jimh posted 07-24-2013 11:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Eric--I am not sure how you were able to determine that the participants here who report their engine choices for re-powering are not representative of even Boston Whaler boat owners. That is a curious conclusion. Can you explain on what basis you have reached that assumption?

I realize that the reports of re-power engine choices given here may be not a completely accurate and scientific sample population of all boat owners, but I do believe they are a fairly representative sample of Boston Whaler boat owners. I am rather surprised that the many reports given here over the past 15 years are now seen as meaningless and unrepresentative of both the general population and the subset of boaters who own classic Boston Whaler boats. This is news to me, and I really am not willing to accept that conclusion.

I would be interested to learn where on the internet, in which discussion forum, one might go to get a truly representative sample population. Eric, can you suggest somewhere you think is more representative?

jimh posted 07-24-2013 11:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Kevin--As I clearly stated, the comment was from a Mercury dealer. It was not a public statement from Mercury Marine. I have no idea how you made the inference that I was suggesting that Mercury Marine has made a public statement about this. I clearly attributed the statement to a Mercury Marine retail engine seller. By the way, I was surprised by that statement myself.

I do note, however, that the many fancy canal cruisers along Florida's Gold Coast area, say around Boca Raton to Miami, seem to be able to buy new engines rather often. I know Glen E, founder of the Verado Club, re-powered his boat with new VERADO engines after only a couple of years of running the original ones. I realize that is just a single data point, but it surprised me how quickly the original engines were replaced.

I think Kevin is trying to make a parallel to my request that started this thread. I started this thread because I read a comment (in another thread) that Mercury Marine had made public statements about their plans to bring out new engines. Rather than disrupt that other thread, I simply started a new thread and solicited the URL of those public comments by Mercury Marine. So far, only Eric has responded with the URL of any public comments by Mercury Marine, and, as I mentioned already, those public comments have failed to specify any horsepower designations.

I don't know if there are some other public statements by Mercury Marine that give specifics about the horsepower and number of cylinders that the engines being developed will have, and perhaps we are just unable to find those comments. But, so far, it seems as if all these informed participants that keep throwing out comments in other threads about Mercury Marine developing new engines of specific horsepower are just making stuff up and throwing it out there as if it were something Mercury has said. As best I can tell, Mercury has only said it is working on some new engines. Any suggestion that they will have a certain horsepower, certain displacement, or certain number of cylinders must, at this point, be just speculation.

jimh posted 07-24-2013 11:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Larry--I think the VERADO was introduced in 2004. If you look at CETACEA Page 77, you will see a picture of yourself next to one in February, 2004.

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage77.html

As for how many I have seen, if I exclude the boats of government agencies or demo boats at boat shows, I think I can count about ten boats with VERADO engines on the Great Lakes. Of course, that is in freshwater. Perhaps that dealer with whom I spoke had it backwards: the VERADO is not doing well in freshwater.

I do not think your boats qualify as being "used extensively" in saltwater, as you probably don't leave them in the water very long. And having five boats and being only one person, it would be hard for you to trailer all of them to Florida every year and use them extensively down there

I do agree your engines look like they have never been in the water, but I give a lot of credit for that to your son, Larry, and the extraordinary care he gives them. I have never seen anyone else wipe salt spray off the cowlings every time the boat came off plane. Nor have I ever heard of anyone other than your son using special automotive buffing clay compounds to bring out the paint finish on an outboard engine. You get no argument from me that your engines all have a wonderful appearance, but I would attribute that more to the extraordinary level of care you and your son give them rather than to an inherent characteristic of Mercury engines. You have every right to be proud of those engines, given all the effort that you have put into maintaining their appearance.

As for the horrible appearance of all the E-TEC engines you see, that is not hard for me to understand. I can accept that report from you without any doubt. I am certain that all the ones you see look ratty and uncared for.

jimh posted 07-24-2013 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Re the general topic of Yamaha being very competitive and taking sales away, I suggest that there is more to this than just the quality of their engines. I believe that Yamaha is able to attract dealers to become Yamaha dealers, taking them away from being dealers for other brands, even when those dealers were exclusively with another brand, and the cause of this is better sales relationships with the dealers. It is my impression, gained from a conversation with a Mercury dealer who has taken on Yamaha, that Yamaha offers an attractive business partnership to dealers.

The influence of the Brunswick corporation on the Mercury brand has affected the relationship of small independent retailers with Mercury. Brunswick likes to go for big dealers, who will carry many of their product lines, and sell a lot of product. The smaller, independent boat shop is not really the ideal target for Mercury any more. I think Yamaha has been very skillful in picking up many smaller dealers and converting them to Yamaha.

Mercury's practice of allowing a few high-volume dealers to advertise insanely low prices and to ship engines all over the country is another example of how Mercury is not very friendly toward small dealers. If I were a small Mercury outboard engine dealer, I would not be very pleased that another Mercury dealer was being allowed to under-sell and ship engines to my customers. That is not the usual relationship between dealers and manufacturers. Usually a dealer gets a territory, and does not have to compete with other dealers just down the street, let alone with dealers a thousand miles away.

These types of business practices have also influenced, in my opinion, the sales Mercury Marine outboard engines in some areas. Yamaha has seemed to be the most savvy at turning independents into Yamaha dealers.

jimh posted 07-24-2013 12:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I appreciate the many sidebar topics that have arisen here, but I must mention, again, that my primary interest in this thread is to locate public statements from Mercury Marine in which they give the horsepower or displacement or number of cylinders of the new engines in development which will be derivatives of the present 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO. I look forward to reading more factual information about these new engines in development and coming to market soon.

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