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Author Topic:   Mixing Fuel Additives

Verrone09 posted 02-19-2014 11:02 PM ET (US)
I have a 2005 Tohatsu 70-HP with direct injection [the Orbital Combustion System--jimh]. I've been adding Quickleen to my fuel for a while. Today my mechanic recommended that I use an ethanol treatment. Is it okay to add both of these? Or does the Quickleen take care of the ethanol? Any sugestions on a brand of ethanol treatment?
OMCrobert posted 02-20-2014 01:06 AM ET (US)
Best advice is go with what Tohatsu recommends. Personally, I always felt like the ethanol treatments were snake oil.
tedious posted 02-20-2014 08:27 AM ET (US)
How long does gas stay in your tank before you use it? If less than a few weeks, you don't need any sort of stabilizer or "ethanol treatment." If longer, use a stabilizer. Some of them claim to be specially formulated for boating and ethanol.
Over the years I've used both the special and regular stabilzers to store ethanol-gasoline fuel over the winter, and I can't tell the difference. Both have worked fine.
Tim
jimh posted 02-20-2014 09:35 AM ET (US)
Mercury QuicKleen is a fuel "cleaner." I assume that means it is a solvent. QuicKleen is NOT a fuel stabilizer. I don't think it is intended to have any special property related to ethanol-gasoline blended fuel. According to Mercury's recommendations, QuicKleen is not intended to be used as a regular or habitual additive to fuel.
I have never really understood the obsession with adding solvents to gasoline as a regular operating practice. Gasoline itself is already a good solvent. Ethanol is also a good solvent. If your engine runs on an ethanol-gasoline blended fuel, that fuel is a already good solvent.
I don't know how one could make a judgement about the effects of combining multiple additives into your fuel blend. Even if you had the exact chemical composition of all the additives, how would you know exactly how they would react when blended together.
The recommendations of Mercury for use of the three fuel additives they make is the topic of another discussion. See
Mercury Fuel Treatments: A QUICK Look
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007434.html
K Albus posted 02-20-2014 10:42 AM ET (US)
When I had my 180 Dauntless with its Optimax 135, I added Quickleen to my gasoline at every fill-up in accordance with Mercury's recommendation included in the owner's manual for my motor. I also added Sta-Bil to the gasoline at every fill-up. This latter step was done in accordance with a Mercury service bulletin that was provided to me by my Boston Whaler dealership. At first I used the regular red Sta-Bil, and later I switched to the blue marine Sta-Bil. My engine always ran well, and I never had any fuel-related problems.
Tom W Clark posted 02-20-2014 10:58 AM ET (US)
I am reminded of a conversation I had with my own outboard mechanic, Dale, a few years ago.
Washington State started requiring the use of ethanol in its gasoline in 2008. When my boat was in for servicing (and after its first tank of E10) I asked Dale if he had seen many problems with boat fuel systems.
He replied that no, he had not seen any problems that could be directly attributable to ethanol in the gasoline but he had seen some nasty fuel system problems caused (he felt) by too much additive added to the gas.
He talked about one customer in particular who had extensive problems. Dale found the guy had been adding several different fuel additives to his gasoline, for different reasons, thinking he was helping his boats fuel system with his home brew.
Dale told this customer bluntly, to STOP adding all that crap to his fuel.
Verrone09 posted 02-20-2014 11:17 AM ET (US)
Thanks guys. And Tom, that's exactly what I was afraid of.
jimh posted 02-20-2014 11:52 AM ET (US)
In most two-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines the lubricating oil is ultimately burned in the combustion chamber. A good way to prevent build up of carbon deposits is to use a premium grade of oil that burns without ash or residue. If a better grade of oil is used, there likely won't be a need to dissolve carbon deposits or other combustion chamber residue with strong solvents.
Build-up of carbon and other combustion chamber residue generally occurs under certain operating conditions, typically when the engine is loaded heavily and is running at lower engine speed than optimum for the load. This condition is called lugging. Avoiding operating the engine under these speeds and loads will help prevent carbon deposits. Also, letting the engine temperature reach the recommended range will help avoid carbon deposits.
OMCrobert posted 02-20-2014 05:10 PM ET (US)
It is my understanding that the standards for TCW3 oil ensure that it is ashless and will not form deposits. I always felt the fuel was a bigger reason for deposits being formed.
jimh posted 02-21-2014 10:15 AM ET (US)
OMCrobert's understanding of the TCW3 rating is different than mine. [My understanding is based on reading the published criteria for the TCW3 rating.]
swist posted 02-26-2014 12:31 PM ET (US)
The fuel additive aisle at the marine stores now have almost as many products as the cleaning products aisle. If that's possible. Statistically valid data about which of these works in which engine in which combination will never be had. There are too many products verses engine types, usage patterns, and operating environments. The permutations are endless.
So I just do what my Mercury mechanic, who has served me well, says to do (Quickleen + Blue Stabil). Yes, maybe they don't do anything, but the implications of testing that theory are expensive indeed.
Binkster posted 02-26-2014 12:53 PM ET (US)
Tom sez his outboard mechanic says to (STOP adding all that crap to his fuel). I agree if you have portable tanks as there is no chance of condensation like there is in below deck tanks. I have a restored antique runabout with a 1961 Evinrude Starflite 75hp V4. I run the boat at the AOMCI meets. The last one I have been to was 6/13. I had about 2 gallons of fuel left with in the portable 6 gallon tank with about a 40-1 oil mix. I started it up a couple of weeks ago on the hose, and burned about a gallon of the fuel that was left. It started right up and ran fine. The fuel looked and smelled fine.
rich
swist posted 02-27-2014 07:43 AM ET (US)
I don't doubt various mechanics have completely different takes on this. They have no choice but to work from anecdotal evidence.
Tiz7070 posted 02-27-2014 10:19 AM ET (US)
This may help.
http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html
The fuel cocktail I use is Stabil Marine formula/ and Sea Foam.
Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 10:20 AM ET (US)
As opposed to what? Highly scientific online discussions here on ContinuousWave?
jimh posted 02-27-2014 11:36 AM ET (US)
Tom--I think the answer to your question:

quote:
As opposed to what?
As opposed to random anecdotal third-party recitations, such as what someone's mechanic told them.
-----------
True wit is Nature to advantage dress'd,
What oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd.

From AN ESSAY ON CRITICISM
by
Alexander Pope
Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 11:43 AM ET (US)
What evidence is not anecdotal? Mechanics have a lot more anecdotal evidence to work with than the average boater. I give greater credence to what they tell me that what I read on the internet.
But here is a data point for you: In the nine years I've owned my Revenge 25 with its 140 gallon internal fuel tank, I have put nothing but gasoline from the gas station or fuel dock into it.
I have had zero fuel related problems with my boat. None, nada, zippo.
But, of course, to those reading this, that is merely an anecdote.
jimh posted 02-27-2014 04:50 PM ET (US)
Tom--you seem to be changing the topic from advice about fuel additives to criticism of the advice about fuel additive and criticism of this website in general. Once you become a critic of others, you should be prepared to receive some criticism of your own advice. I think that is a reasonable basis. If you want to be immune from criticism, let me give you some advice:
--don't offer any advice in an open on-line discussion forum,
--don't offer any criticism of other's advice
Following the above guidelines will tend to limit the amount of criticism you can be subjected to receiving.

quote:
What evidence is not anecdotal?
The term anecdotal carries the connotation of unscientific. Compare at M-W.COM:
"...based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal?
I thought anecdotal was the perfect riposte to your request for an alternative to scientific discussions.
Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 10:00 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the advice Jim. When you follow your own advice, I will follow suit.
Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 10:01 PM ET (US)
I think we can all acknowledge that Jim has earned his How-To-Use-A-Dictionary merit badge.
jimh posted 03-01-2014 10:10 AM ET (US)
Tom--Ceteris paribus, I am still way behind you in obscure Latin phrases. I will try to catch up soon.
ANDREW PITCHFORD posted 03-01-2014 04:31 PM ET (US)
It appears Mr Ringo is an educated man
John from Madison CT posted 03-02-2014 06:50 PM ET (US)
What's wrong Tom? Has the snooty, holier-than-thou atmosphere on this forum finally gotten to you??

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Author	Topic: Mixing Fuel Additives
Verrone09	posted 02-19-2014 11:02 PM ET (US) I have a 2005 Tohatsu 70-HP with direct injection [the Orbital Combustion System--jimh]. I've been adding Quickleen to my fuel for a while. Today my mechanic recommended that I use an ethanol treatment. Is it okay to add both of these? Or does the Quickleen take care of the ethanol? Any sugestions on a brand of ethanol treatment?
OMCrobert	posted 02-20-2014 01:06 AM ET (US) Best advice is go with what Tohatsu recommends. Personally, I always felt like the ethanol treatments were snake oil.
tedious	posted 02-20-2014 08:27 AM ET (US) How long does gas stay in your tank before you use it? If less than a few weeks, you don't need any sort of stabilizer or "ethanol treatment." If longer, use a stabilizer. Some of them claim to be specially formulated for boating and ethanol. Over the years I've used both the special and regular stabilzers to store ethanol-gasoline fuel over the winter, and I can't tell the difference. Both have worked fine. Tim
jimh	posted 02-20-2014 09:35 AM ET (US) Mercury QuicKleen is a fuel "cleaner." I assume that means it is a solvent. QuicKleen is NOT a fuel stabilizer. I don't think it is intended to have any special property related to ethanol-gasoline blended fuel. According to Mercury's recommendations, QuicKleen is not intended to be used as a regular or habitual additive to fuel. I have never really understood the obsession with adding solvents to gasoline as a regular operating practice. Gasoline itself is already a good solvent. Ethanol is also a good solvent. If your engine runs on an ethanol-gasoline blended fuel, that fuel is a already good solvent. I don't know how one could make a judgement about the effects of combining multiple additives into your fuel blend. Even if you had the exact chemical composition of all the additives, how would you know exactly how they would react when blended together. The recommendations of Mercury for use of the three fuel additives they make is the topic of another discussion. See Mercury Fuel Treatments: A QUICK Look http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/007434.html
K Albus	posted 02-20-2014 10:42 AM ET (US) When I had my 180 Dauntless with its Optimax 135, I added Quickleen to my gasoline at every fill-up in accordance with Mercury's recommendation included in the owner's manual for my motor. I also added Sta-Bil to the gasoline at every fill-up. This latter step was done in accordance with a Mercury service bulletin that was provided to me by my Boston Whaler dealership. At first I used the regular red Sta-Bil, and later I switched to the blue marine Sta-Bil. My engine always ran well, and I never had any fuel-related problems.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-20-2014 10:58 AM ET (US) I am reminded of a conversation I had with my own outboard mechanic, Dale, a few years ago. Washington State started requiring the use of ethanol in its gasoline in 2008. When my boat was in for servicing (and after its first tank of E10) I asked Dale if he had seen many problems with boat fuel systems. He replied that no, he had not seen any problems that could be directly attributable to ethanol in the gasoline but he had seen some nasty fuel system problems caused (he felt) by too much additive added to the gas. He talked about one customer in particular who had extensive problems. Dale found the guy had been adding several different fuel additives to his gasoline, for different reasons, thinking he was helping his boats fuel system with his home brew. Dale told this customer bluntly, to STOP adding all that crap to his fuel.
Verrone09	posted 02-20-2014 11:17 AM ET (US) Thanks guys. And Tom, that's exactly what I was afraid of.
jimh	posted 02-20-2014 11:52 AM ET (US) In most two-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines the lubricating oil is ultimately burned in the combustion chamber. A good way to prevent build up of carbon deposits is to use a premium grade of oil that burns without ash or residue. If a better grade of oil is used, there likely won't be a need to dissolve carbon deposits or other combustion chamber residue with strong solvents. Build-up of carbon and other combustion chamber residue generally occurs under certain operating conditions, typically when the engine is loaded heavily and is running at lower engine speed than optimum for the load. This condition is called lugging. Avoiding operating the engine under these speeds and loads will help prevent carbon deposits. Also, letting the engine temperature reach the recommended range will help avoid carbon deposits.
OMCrobert	posted 02-20-2014 05:10 PM ET (US) It is my understanding that the standards for TCW3 oil ensure that it is ashless and will not form deposits. I always felt the fuel was a bigger reason for deposits being formed.
jimh	posted 02-21-2014 10:15 AM ET (US) OMCrobert's understanding of the TCW3 rating is different than mine. [My understanding is based on reading the published criteria for the TCW3 rating.]
swist	posted 02-26-2014 12:31 PM ET (US) The fuel additive aisle at the marine stores now have almost as many products as the cleaning products aisle. If that's possible. Statistically valid data about which of these works in which engine in which combination will never be had. There are too many products verses engine types, usage patterns, and operating environments. The permutations are endless. So I just do what my Mercury mechanic, who has served me well, says to do (Quickleen + Blue Stabil). Yes, maybe they don't do anything, but the implications of testing that theory are expensive indeed.
Binkster	posted 02-26-2014 12:53 PM ET (US) Tom sez his outboard mechanic says to (STOP adding all that crap to his fuel). I agree if you have portable tanks as there is no chance of condensation like there is in below deck tanks. I have a restored antique runabout with a 1961 Evinrude Starflite 75hp V4. I run the boat at the AOMCI meets. The last one I have been to was 6/13. I had about 2 gallons of fuel left with in the portable 6 gallon tank with about a 40-1 oil mix. I started it up a couple of weeks ago on the hose, and burned about a gallon of the fuel that was left. It started right up and ran fine. The fuel looked and smelled fine. rich
swist	posted 02-27-2014 07:43 AM ET (US) I don't doubt various mechanics have completely different takes on this. They have no choice but to work from anecdotal evidence.
Tiz7070	posted 02-27-2014 10:19 AM ET (US) This may help. http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html The fuel cocktail I use is Stabil Marine formula/ and Sea Foam.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 10:20 AM ET (US) As opposed to what? Highly scientific online discussions here on ContinuousWave?
jimh	posted 02-27-2014 11:36 AM ET (US) Tom--I think the answer to your question: quote: As opposed to what? As opposed to random anecdotal third-party recitations, such as what someone's mechanic told them. ----------- True wit is Nature to advantage dress'd, What oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd. From AN ESSAY ON CRITICISM by Alexander Pope
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 11:43 AM ET (US) What evidence is not anecdotal? Mechanics have a lot more anecdotal evidence to work with than the average boater. I give greater credence to what they tell me that what I read on the internet. But here is a data point for you: In the nine years I've owned my Revenge 25 with its 140 gallon internal fuel tank, I have put nothing but gasoline from the gas station or fuel dock into it. I have had zero fuel related problems with my boat. None, nada, zippo. But, of course, to those reading this, that is merely an anecdote.
jimh	posted 02-27-2014 04:50 PM ET (US) Tom--you seem to be changing the topic from advice about fuel additives to criticism of the advice about fuel additive and criticism of this website in general. Once you become a critic of others, you should be prepared to receive some criticism of your own advice. I think that is a reasonable basis. If you want to be immune from criticism, let me give you some advice: --don't offer any advice in an open on-line discussion forum, --don't offer any criticism of other's advice Following the above guidelines will tend to limit the amount of criticism you can be subjected to receiving. quote: What evidence is not anecdotal? The term anecdotal carries the connotation of unscientific. Compare at M-W.COM: "...based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal? I thought anecdotal was the perfect riposte to your request for an alternative to scientific discussions.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 10:00 PM ET (US) Thanks for the advice Jim. When you follow your own advice, I will follow suit.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 10:01 PM ET (US) I think we can all acknowledge that Jim has earned his How-To-Use-A-Dictionary merit badge.
jimh	posted 03-01-2014 10:10 AM ET (US) Tom--Ceteris paribus, I am still way behind you in obscure Latin phrases. I will try to catch up soon.
ANDREW PITCHFORD	posted 03-01-2014 04:31 PM ET (US) It appears Mr Ringo is an educated man
John from Madison CT	posted 03-02-2014 06:50 PM ET (US) What's wrong Tom? Has the snooty, holier-than-thou atmosphere on this forum finally gotten to you??