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Author Topic:   Older 16-footer, 60-HP Four-stroke
RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 08:32 AM ET (US)   Profile for RickCFL   Send Email to RickCFL  
[Seeks] recent performance results [from an older Boston Whaler 16-footer pre-smirked hull powered by a 60-HP four-stroke-power-cycle engine using electronic fuel injection]. I am typically a Yahama fan. Price will come into play while re-powering this [older 16-foot Boston Whaler pre-smirk] boat. Open to other motors but have been reading might want to consider the "High Thrust" motors. I don't want to put the additional weight, power, and price into a higher horsepower motor.

The Yahama F70 is basically the same weight [as the 60-HP perhaps]. I just looked it up. I am looking into pricing on the F70.

People weight is 535-lbs (two adults and two boys). The motor is 260 to 290-lbs depending upon brand. Gear another 50-lbs.

60-HP four-stroke-power-cycle EFI vs Yahama F70 EFI: clearly the F70 has more power. Any ideas how much difference on planing and top end [boat speed]? Personal experience and comments would be great?


bloller posted 04-23-2014 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for bloller  Send Email to bloller     
With the load you describe you will be lucky to top out at 30-MPH with the 60-HP. Enough for some people.
jimh posted 04-23-2014 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If two engines weigh the same, and one has 10-HP more power, a boat will go faster with the more powerful engine. If the 10-HP power difference is between 60-HP and 70-HP, you can figure the increase in speed will be in the proportion of (70/60)^0.5 = 1.08. You'll go about eight percent faster at most with the 70-HP than the 60-HP.

Outboard engine price is usually very proportional to engine horsepower in a particular product line. You have to pay more for more horsepower. This is generally unavoidable.

I don't quite understand what you intend to differentiate about engines having electronic fuel injection. Just about all outboard engines today have electronic fuel injection in the mid-range of horsepower.

I don't think there is much difference in performance between two engines rated for the same power on the basis of one having electronic fuel injection and another having carburetors.

If you are trying to identify some specific engine by denoting it as "EFI" you should mention the manufacturer and model name more clearly. "EFI" just means electronic fuel injection, not a particular brand or model.

RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 10:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Learning as I go. Good points all. By stating EFI only I am trying to stay away from the carb problems that I have had over the years. I am just learning about Evinrude's ETEC and the Nissan/Tohatsu direct injection; i.e. no carb problems. I see also this site seems to really like the ETECs. I am looking into pricing on the 60hp and 75 ETECs now. Trying to be cost effective for me, not too much weight for the boat and not too much hp for the boys. Balancing them all together.

Thank you

RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 10:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Also I have migrated to non-ethanol gas over the years..
bloller posted 04-23-2014 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for bloller  Send Email to bloller     
I went to a E-TEC 90hp from a Mercury 60hp. The 60 was much more pleasant at idle speeds while the E-TEC is better at the midrange and top end. The E-TEC is quiet at idle just not as smooth
RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 11:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Same 16.7 nonsmirk bloller?
bloller posted 04-23-2014 11:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for bloller  Send Email to bloller     
Yes but yours could do better or worse depending on bottom condition and or any water trapped in the foam. It sounds like the 70 Yamaha would be the best fit for you unless you find a really good deal on a 60 of any brand
RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 11:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
I am restoring her so the bottom will be painted with new anti-fouling. Due to my bottom paint, gear, family, cooler seat, and light center console, I am starting to see that a 60-HP might now not be enough to plane without problem. Looking at 75-HP ETEC, as I see it is the same weight as a 90-HP E-TEC. Most concerned about getting up on plane with two adults and two boys, 100-lbs each. Top end in the mid-30-MPH is plenty for us.

I can fulfill my need for speed on my Sea Hunt.

ASIDE: bloller--just found your topic from Dec-13 and very helpful.

jharrell posted 04-23-2014 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
I just re-powered my 1986 smirked Montauk with a Yamaha F70. My top speed is 38-MPH with a Solas 15 SS propeller, while still having excellent load carrying ability. I went down in power from an old Mercury 90 in-line six-cylinder two-stroke-power-cycle engine that did 43-MPH on the same setup. I was worried I would be unsatisfied with the drop in performance, but was concerned with going up in weight; and, I have better access to Yamaha service. I was not disappointed: the drop in weight made a bigger difference than I expected in how the boat handles.

bloller posted 04-23-2014 11:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for bloller  Send Email to bloller     
It'll plane with 60-HP no problem just not fast. I had four adults and three smaller children in it before. Top speed 28-MPH
jharrell posted 04-23-2014 11:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
I forgot to note that the typical load is me, my wife and my two young two girls, so that's probably 450-lbs, but my smirked hull is heavier than the non smirked I believe, plus I have two batteries and kicker motor.

Unfortunately I haven't paid attention to top speed when we are out cruising as it would be rare to even go WOT, but it was somewhere in the mid 30's. Instead we would be cruising in the low to mid 20's for comfort, however getting up on plane is absolutely no problem with that load.

This is my boat: osZqN5p2iP5g3pVZrsCdt3-lYSng0fm3bKMv7sPB1TI?feat=directlink

RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 12:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Thank you both. Great looking boat Justin!

Good info!

To add to the conversation; adding a flip flop cooler seat (for dry storage) at helm, light center console only. Then an Igloo probably 72qt cooler and cushion for seat in front of console so I can keep some weight forward. No wood in the restore so that will also be lighter.

jimh posted 04-23-2014 12:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I see also this site seems to really like the ETECs.

The website itself is very neutral when it comes to brands. The website admires good technology and good products from all makers. It is the people who own older Boston Whaler boats and want to re-power them that seem to be very fond of the E-TEC. The website really has no control over that--people buy the engine they like. When you are re-powering you can buy any engine you want.

As you suggested then you wrote, "I am typically a Yahama fan," everyone probably has a brand preference that they may be initially biased toward, and in some cases, those biases are so strong that there is no rational argument that could alter them.

RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 12:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Agreed and what I meant. Many members seem to like ETECs.
2manyboats posted 04-23-2014 12:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for 2manyboats  Send Email to 2manyboats     
While I have no experience with 16 ft Whalers, I have run 90 degree block OMC 90s, 60 degree OMC 90s, small displacement OMC 70s, larger displacement 70s and both 60hp and 90hp E-TECs on 17 Montauks and a 15 Sport.

The least favorite motor of all of those was the 60 E-TEC. I love the 90 E-TECs we have owned and between the 2 90s we have almost 3000 of use with very few problems with great performance and fuel economy. The 60 on the other hand was on both the Montauk and the 15 and while performance was ok, it had to be run harder and was not as fuel efficient as the 90.

Also in my opinion the 2 cylinder 60 E-TEC was not as smooth at idle or cruising speed as the 3 or 4 cylinder motors.

As for the 75 E-TEC unless money is a concern and you can get the 75 for much less, I would skip it and go with the 90.

goldstem posted 04-23-2014 12:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for goldstem  Send Email to goldstem     
as I have stated before, my sailing club has an old abused 16 footer, we have had two four strokes on her - a Suzuki 50 and an yamaha 50. we don't have quite the load you are having (usually just two large adults).
the Suzuki was slightly faster because it had the regular gear case, our yamaha has a big foot gear case (and accelerates quite ferociously). the Yamaha top speed is about 30, the Suzuki went about 33. i think you will have no problems with a 60. or a 50.
RickCFL posted 04-23-2014 03:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
thank you both for your additional comments.
jimh posted 04-23-2014 06:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In general with outboard engines, and particularly two-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines, the three-cylinder configuration seems like a winner. I think any three-cylinder probably runs more smoothly than any similar two-cylinder.
Tom W Clark posted 04-23-2014 09:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I think a Mercury 60 HP FourStroke EFI BigFoot [here Tom decided it would be necessary to disambiguate the Mercury FOURSTROKE 60-HP BIGFOOT from a MERCURY 60-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO, but there is no need for this because there is no 60-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO.--jimh] would be fine. Top speed with the load described would probably be 31-32 MPH

The Yamaha F70 would be fine too and faster still at 36-37 MPH loaded as described.

The Evinrude E-TEC [here Tom's was trying to make some point about how to spell "E-TEC" properly--jimh] would be a little faster but would offer a substantially improved hole shot, if that is important to you. There really is a remarkable difference in acceleration between the modern four strokes and the DFI two stroke Evinrude E-TECs.

The E-TEC 75 and 90 are the same motor with different software. Everything will be virtually the same except top speed. If you can save $1,000 or $2,000, it would be a much better value if going faster than 40 were not important to you.

All of these motors use a 4.25 (intermediate) size gearcase which I think is desirable on this hull

RickCFL posted 04-24-2014 09:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Thanks Jim and Tom. The 75 E-TEC is looking good. Pricewise as well much cheaper than the Yahama and Merc BF at least in my area. Keeps the weight down also which is one of my concerns. The price difference to move from 4 Stroke 60 to 75 E-TEC is worth it to me to not have to worry about the extra load on the boat and to run without strain on the motor. I am finding the E-TEC to be very cost effective compared in general to Yahama, Suzuki and Merc; at least in my experience.
RickCFL posted 04-24-2014 09:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Tom, also, no idea on props for the 75 E-TEC?? I don't need to go into the 40s. More looking for quick plane or not at least a long drawn out plane.

Brand, pitch etc?? What do you think Tom?

bdb posted 04-24-2014 09:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for bdb  Send Email to bdb     
[No boating content at all in this post, so it has been throw into the trash--jimh]
RickCFL posted 04-24-2014 09:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Do I have the right Tom for prop questions? I thought I saw Tom Clark on this site as very knowledgeable on props?
bloller posted 04-24-2014 09:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for bloller  Send Email to bloller     
I would suggest the 15 pitch viper as a starting point and 39 mph top speed with the 75hp E-tec. I would go with the 90 though. Isn't it only about $500 more. It's the same weight
RickCFL posted 04-24-2014 09:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Not from the pricing I am seeing in my area; more like $800-$1,000. Plus I really don't need that speed for 13 and 14 yr olds to be running around on their own next year. The price difference I can put into the console, seating, cooler seat etc.. This boat will only be staying coastal, fishing flats, running to barrier islands that are close in Tampa Bay. 39mph is plenty. I can't think of one reason to go any faster. Storms roll in and we jump before they come; emergencies and we hope there aren't any.

I have twin 150hp Yammies on my 25' center console and WOT is 51mph. I cruise at 32mph burning 12 gph. I NEVER use WOT. For me the first 25 yrs I went 7mph wind propelled. Going 32 feels like flying.

I appreciate the comments though.

Tom W Clark posted 04-24-2014 10:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
The E-TEC 75 is one of the heavier motor options for this boat, though nothing compared to the ridiculous Mercury 75 HP FourStroke EFI not VERADO which weighs 400 pounds, actually a bit *more* than my V-6 150 HP Mercury two strokes.

I've seen the price difference between the E-TEC 75 and E-TEC 90 range from $500 to $2000. Ask your dealer how much more you would pay for the 90.

For a propeller, I'd use a 13-1/4" x 13" Stiletto Advantage, or maybe a 14" x 13" Stiletto Star on the E-TEC 75.

jimh posted 04-24-2014 10:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Tom--There is no 60-HP VERADO, so you don't need to disambiguate the FourStroke BigFoot from other outboard engines made by Mercury with the VERADO name. I don't think the VERADO technology scales down to 60-HP engines. I think you were doing this just to be needlessly provocative.
RickCFL posted 04-24-2014 12:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Whew. This stuff is making my head spin. I think I will just go back to the restoration, since I have some time on the motor decision. Assuming just a hull, at this point, I need everything to power her up. A 60-HP installed literally down to steering wheel, batteries, gas tank, and controls, cables, all etc., about $7,000; 75-HP up to $9,000. Big decision to make. Thanks all.

Applying first top coat of Perfection this weekend.

jimh posted 04-25-2014 02:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Enjoy the pleasure of working on your boat. For many owners of older Boston Whaler boats, working on the boat involves more time and perhaps more fun than actually getting out on the water with the boat.
RickCFL posted 04-25-2014 02:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Thx Jim. The best part to be honest is my boys have "asked" to help me with the project. Truly gratifying. I didn't push them at all due to fumes, space, other issues.

They want to help where they can and it is safe to expose them to fumes, respirators, paint etc.. Taking all precautions.


RickCFL posted 04-25-2014 02:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Ok. Tom Clark (and others as you wish). I have read too many posts at night and I am giving myself a headache. I believe you said a Merc BF 60hp 4 stroke EFI would be a good choice. You know the load I am carrying with 2 adults, gear and 2 boys. It will be the same load for a while until the boys go off on their own. That said.. I am watching the $$ on the motor rigging. The 75hp is expensive and probably too rich for what I want to spend; plus the weight factor of the added hp. If I stay within the 60hp range; which motor would you choose. Merc BF 60hp 4 stroke EFI, Evin E-TEC 60hp, Yah 60hp High Thrust 4 stroke EFI. If you had to pick in order what would be your 1, 2, 3 line up with my situation? Tough question I know but your gut decision? After that what prop on the motor you chose to be number one with the planing hole shot first priority and WOT 2nd?

My neck of the woods the 60hp to 75hp is a difference of $2k; no small decision.

Thank you

frontier posted 04-25-2014 03:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for frontier  Send Email to frontier     
Go with a used 90 Yamaha 2-stroke (Precision Blend oil injection - not the C90). The perfect motor for any classic 17 Whaler.
High quality. Dependable. Clean. Only weighs 261#. LOTS of power and half the cost of a new 60-70 HP 4-stroke.
Yamaha built basically the same motor from 1984 thru about 2009 - so lots of them are around, everywhere.
In fact, I see one now on Tampa Craigslist for $3495.
Teak Oil posted 04-25-2014 08:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
What about the Yamaha F70 or 70 Suzuki?

The F70 has pretty good review on this site on that hull, as well as the Zuke.

I am an E-tec guy, but I don't think the 2 cyl 60 will make you happy. Not a smooth motor on not enough cubes.

Of the choices you listed I would go Yamaha, it will be easy to sell to the fishing or pontoon crowd if you decide you want to go bigger later.

jimh posted 04-26-2014 12:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Re the E-TEC two-cylinder 60-HP:

Back in the old days, a two-cylinder engine probably made 35-HP, like a Evinrude "Big Twin." The E-TEC technology is able to get higher horsepower per cylinder than 1960 technology could, so the E-TEC can make 60-HP with a two-cylinder. As others have noted, the two-cylinder won't run as smoothly as a three-cylinder.

A four-stroke-power-cycle outboard probably won't have the acceleration or torque of an E-TEC of the same horsepower rating, but they're really popular, and the Yamaha F70a is a newer model, from c.2009. See this thread

Tom W Clark posted 04-26-2014 10:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Evinrude first made a two cylinder 60 HP motor 34 years ago back in 1980. There is nothing special about the E-TEC technology that allows 60 HP from two cylinders.

I disagree that the two cylinder E-TEC is not smooth. My father in law has a 40 HP E-TEC (same as a 60, different software) on a 17' Triumph that gets used to cruise the Kennebec River and Merrymeeting Bay.

That boat often is used heavily loaded with passengers, and even at only 40 HP, the boat pops up on plane in an instant. It is also quiet and smoke free at sub-planing speeds.

The Evinrude E-TEC 60 would be an excellent choice for an old 16'-7" Whaler. It has a nice low 2.67:1 gear ratio and turns a 4.25 series propeller up to 14" in diameter.

Tom W Clark posted 04-26-2014 10:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Rick -- Honestly, you can hardly go wrong with any of the motors mentioned, but if economy is a concern, I would choose a used outboard before buying any of these new outboards. There are so many good choices out there.

I do not disagree that an old Yamaha 90 two stroke would be good on this hull but there are many others as well, including the old 70 HP Yamaha two stroke and the venerable Evinrude/Johnson 70 HP three cylinder two stroke.

Used four stroke outboards are available as well, but older four strokes tend to be heavier so you are probably limited to 60 HP maximum as a practical matter.

We can talk propellers *after* you have bought a motor and in a discussion thread of its own.

jimh posted 04-28-2014 09:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Ah, yes, Tom's right--well that's hardly necessary to say because, as a source of historical information about 40- and 50-year-old boats and outboards, Tom is just about infallible--and he reminds me that I have seen plenty of older OMC two-cylinder engines that make more than 35-HP. I recall there is a racing class that use those two-cylinder OMC engines on inflatable racing boats, and the engines are real screamers.
RickCFL posted 04-28-2014 10:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for RickCFL  Send Email to RickCFL     
Deal Tom. I am staying away from 2 stroke carbs period; except E-TEC if I go that route. I don't want to deal with the carb issues ever again.

You are right on prop; cart before the horse.

Ended up putting 2nd coat of Interlux primecoat on this weekend. Not sure if 2nd is required but I like the look alot better as with just one it was bleeding through. Two coats really did the coverage I was looking for. Sanding 220 took only 1.5hrs; then primer another 2.5-3hrs. She is looking good. At this rate I will be done in 2015. Haha...

Hopefully have time this weekend to do first coat of perfection and sprinkle in intergrip nonskid on decking.


wally910 posted 05-02-2014 11:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for wally910  Send Email to wally910     
I second the Yamaha 90 rec. I have one on my 86 Montauk and it has been a great motor.
GRAND NUSSIE posted 05-02-2014 06:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for GRAND NUSSIE  Send Email to GRAND NUSSIE     
I third the Yamaha 90. I have one on my Sakonnet.


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