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Author Topic:   1992 27 OFFSHORE, Twin 250-HP
bottomup posted 04-14-2015 09:37 PM ET (US)   Profile for bottomup   Send Email to bottomup  
I have a 27 OFFSHORE with a 10-foot beam. I have Evinrude E-TEC 250-HP engines mounted with 26-inch separation. They are stern mounted and all the way down, sitting on the stern. No matter what I do on the [toe-in or toe-out] of the engines, I get a little slipping, and the engines are just not performing right. The [propeller] hubs are okay. I also tried different propellers and still get slipping. I even got on a plane, cut the tie rod, and let the engines find their natural [toe-in or toe-out]. It did help, but the port engine slips and has slipped a little since I got the boat.

I just found out Whaler recommends a 28-inch spacing on these hulls [for engines that are] stern mounted. I am going to try the 28-inch centers.

How high off the stern are [the engines] recommended to be on a 28-inch center[?] Any help would be great.

Has anyone else had [problems with twin engines on a Boston Whaler 27 OFFSHORE mounted with 26-inch separation producing propeller slipping]?

jimh posted 04-14-2015 11:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
By increasing the center-to-center distance to 28-inches from 26-inches, you only move each engine 1-inch farther out from the keel centerline. The effect of that is to only create a slightly deeper immersion of the gear case below the hull due to the V-hull shape and the deadrise.

Do you happen to know the deadrise angle of the 27 OFFSHORE hull? I am guessing it is about 22-degrees. By moving 1-inch farther from keel center, the hull will rise only

1-inch x sin(22-degrees) = 0.374-inch

I will be surprised if the immersion of the gear case by 0.375-inch is going to be the solution to the propeller breaking out. The reason I say this: usually an engine mounted on a Boston Whaler would be mounted at 1-hole up or 0.75-inch up.

Give some details of the propellers you are using or have tried.

What is the present setting of the toe-in or toe-out? I presume it is set as you determined when you experimented with the engines no longer tied together mechanically with the tie bar.

bottomup posted 04-15-2015 07:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
I was running on a plane and trimmed out and took off the tie bar. The engine was free to go any direction it wanted to. I ended up having a 2-3/4-inch toe [but was it toe-in or toe-out?--jimh]. Yesterday I went out in the boat measured the toe [by] getting in the water and measuring gear cases and my other cap measuring the tie bar bolts and started at 1/2-toe and got. I went from 1/2 to 2 [unclear, perhaps meant more tham 2-inches] and everything in between. Every time, I changed the toe by 1/2-inch increments and got on a plane and checked the bite of the prop and speed. I ended up at a 1-1/4-inch toe as the best result.

I am using the Mercury MIRAGEplus with vent holes plugged up. I get 5,650-RPM out of the engines.

From what I saw at the natural [toe--but again not specified as toe-in or toe-out] when taking off the tie bar on a plane and letting it toe itself to going with a 1-3/4-inch tow. Started me thinking about how the water travels down the hull.

I have had three different sets of engines on this hull. All brand new engines, from OMC Ocean Runners 225-HP to BRP 250[Ficht] to BRP 250 E-TEC. After around 400 hours I start to get water in the gear cases on all of the different engines. That is one of the reasons I was thinking about spreading the engines to a 28-inch center. I have been to several dealers. We have looked at the hull. [There is] no hook in hull. [I have] put a straight edge on the hull. No one has found any [defect] with the hull or the height of the engines. One dealer said it might be the way the water is traveling down the hull and the gear cases might not be getting cooled properly so the gear case will heat up a little more and suck in very small drops of water. If this right, I do not know. I just know I need to find out why I keep getting water in the gear cases as well.

I have also used OMC regular SST 14-1/4 x 21 to OMC RAKER 14x21 and Mercury MIRAGE 14-3/4 x 21 on this boat, and, no matter what propeller I use, I get a little slippage and water in the gear case around 300-hours. And I have had the engines set at a little different toe as well.

seahorse posted 04-15-2015 07:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    
Rakers and SST's are not the best propellers for your type of boat.

Have you tried the Cyclone 4-blades or the Rebel series of propellers? My guess would be that either type would be an improvement over the abovementioned props.

What are your engines' model numbers?

There were a batch of out of spec orings during one time period that often allowed water into the gearcase. Did your dealer perform a vacuum test along with the pressure test when checking the gearcases?

jimh posted 04-15-2015 09:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I am confused by your use of the word "toe" (or sometimes "tow"). You need to clarify if you are talking about toe-in or toe-out. To be specific:

TOE-IN means the front of the gear cases are closer together than aft end of the propeller shafts. The wakes of the outboard engines diverge.

TOE-OUT means the front of the gear cases are farther apart than the aft end of the propeller shafts. The wakes of the outboard engines converge.

I am confused by what you mean by "slipping". Do you mean the propellers are ventilating and losing all thrust? Or do you mean you have calculated the SLIP and found it to be higher than you'd like.

If the propellers are ventilating and losing all grip, I would be surprised if a one-inch movement outboard from centerline would be the cure.

Do you have some data about the engine speed and boat speed for a particular set of propeller of a certain pitch? We could look at that data and see what the SLIP calculates to.

Are you monitoring the cooling water pressure on the E-TEC engines? What sort of cooling water pressure do you see when running on plane at high engine speed? How about engine temperature? Loss of water pressure and higher than normal engine temperature would be indicators of a cooling water problem.

I believe that Evinrude makes some different water pick-up screens for the gear case water pick-up. Using a different screen might help. Also, beginning about c.2010 the gear case on the V6 E-TEC engine began to have water pick-up inlets on the leading edge of the gear case.

Also, what gear case do you have on the E-TEC engines? There is a high-speed gear case called the LIGHTNING gear case. There is also a newer style gear case with a straight leading edge, called the MAGNUM2 or M2 gear case. The M2 has water inlets on the leading edge.

As I recall, I have read of some twin engine installations where problems with cooling water flow lead to use of a engine cooling water inlet being mounted on the boat hull at the transom to scoop up and push cooling water into the engine cooling system, but that seems like a radical solution, if there were a cooling problem.

jimh posted 04-15-2015 09:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
See page 94 of the Evinrude E-TEC RIGGING GUIDE for advice about twin engine mounting. You can obtain the guide on-line for no cost from OwnersManuals_EJ/attach/Accessories/5008506_EN.pdf

jimh posted 04-15-2015 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Another question:

Are there any SONAR transducers or other devices, such as underwater lamps, mounted on the hull at the transom? It would be much simpler to move a SONAR transducer that was disrupting water flow than to move two outboard engines 1-inch outboard.

bottomup posted 04-15-2015 05:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
The engines are [set to have] toe-in. [There is] no SONAR transducer or anything else sticking down on the hull. I adjusted the [toe-in or toe-out] again, today, and [the toe-in is] right-on, now. [At] 3500-RPM [the boat is] doing 34.5-MPH, and sometimes hitting over 35-MPH. [The test done was] with 80-gallons of fuel and three people on the boat.

One of my tie-bar bushings was gone, and [the tie-bar] had a lot of slop. I let someone else tell me what was going with the boat and in the stern, instead of looking at it myself. [Apparently has since installed a] new tie-bar and [set the engine to have] between 1/2-inch to 3/4-inch of toe-in.

Every time I have had water in the gear case, we changed the drive shaft seals. [The gear case} would be okay for around 300-hours, then water in the gear case, again. I have had a few [repairs] under warranty, but I still don’t know why [intrusion of water into the gear case] has happened to three different sets of engines, brand new, out-of-the-box, on that hull. I have a 31 OceanMaster with twin E-TEC 300-HP engine, and [have had] no problems at all with those gear cases. [The E-TEC engines] on the Boston Whaler boat have the M2 gear case. I have 2010 E-TEC 250-HP engines on the Whaler.

I know I will not let another captain tell me what is going on any more--that is for sure. The water intrusion is still [unclear]. I wanted to thank everyone for all of the input, so far. Any [other] ideas on the [cause of the] water in the gear case? I am ordering all new seals to go in both gear cases, again.

seahorse posted 04-16-2015 07:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    
If the propshaft and driveshaft needle bearings are worn from repeated water in the oil, they can wear and cause the shafts to wobble while running. That increases wear on the seals and the movement can act as a pump to allow water in.

The shift shaft o-ring is another spot that can hold pressure and vacuum while stationary yet possibly leak when in motion. Use a magnifying glass in the shaft area that rides along the o-ring and inspect for wear, ridges, and corrosion pitting. Also check for a bent shift rod that would put excessive pressure on one side of the o-ring.

Most of the time in situations like yours, a new upper driveshaft bearing housing and a new shift cover - both which come with seals installed - seem to take care of the problem, unless the propshaft bearings are very worn. Replacing those 2 bearing are very easy while the bearing carrier is removed.

Inspect both shafts for grooves or pitting that could affect the seals.

Make sure the dealer vacuum checks the gearcase as well as pressure checks it and use only Evinrude HPF-Pro gear oil.

Peter posted 04-16-2015 08:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I had a Whaler 27 Whaler Drive for many years. Same hull as the 27 Offshore except with a Whaler Drive. I tried many different propellers to resolve a slipping problem including the Mercury Mirage Plus. The Mirage Plus slipped in any kind of a chop and made for a very harsh ride. The last propeller set that I tried and stuck with was the Mercury Revolution 4. It fixed the slipping problem and as a result the boat rode significantly better in a chop, so much so that my wife actually noticed and she is not one to normally notice these kinds of things. I suggests you give the Rev 4s a try before doing anything else.

My motors were on an approximate 30 inch spacing.

bottomup posted 04-16-2015 06:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
What gets me is three different sets of engines are doing the same thing: water getting into the gear cases. All brand new from the factory and around 300 to 400 hours or less [than 300-hours] of running. This happened with different propellers. I am going to change the seals on the drive shaft and propeller shaft. Thanks for all the help everyone.
seahorse posted 04-17-2015 12:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

I am going to change the seals on the drive shaft and propeller shaft.

Don't forget the shift shaft O-ring and inspection.

jimh posted 04-17-2015 07:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Perhaps the loose tie-bar was allowing the engines to rattle around instead of holding them firmly, and this freedom of movement, contributed to the unusual wear of the seals in the gear case, causing your water intrusion problem to appear after about 300-hours of running. This seems more likely than the probability that several consecutive sets of new gear cases or re-sealed gear cases would all fail in the same amount of running time due to a defect in their original manufacture.
bottomup posted 04-18-2015 03:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
All of the seals from the drive shaft to the propeller shaft are being replaced, and new water pumps are getting put on. I have the dealer do a propeller slip [calculation] on my boat, and [the propeller slip is] 7-percent. The dealer tells me that is good. We are still shaking our heads at the water getting into the gear cases, from the Ocean Runner engines to BRP Ficht engine and now the E-TEC engines The tie bar might have had something to do with it, but [we are] still not sure why this keeps happening.
Peter posted 04-18-2015 03:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
My engines were on approximate 30-inch centers if that makes any difference. They were Evinrude Fichts with the Magnum gear case. Never any water in the gear cases.
bottomup posted 04-18-2015 03:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Seahorse--Every time we did a vacuum test the seals held. My dealer came up with MAYBE the way the water is going over the gear case it is not cooling it the way it needs to, so the seals are expanding just a little and letting microscopic drops of water in. After around 300 hours or so this water shows up in the gear case. Is this the problem ? Just three different sets of engines doing the same thing. All brand new out of the box from the same dealer
Don SSDD posted 04-19-2015 08:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
The common denominator to your lower end seal failures is the same hull and the same dealer. Maybe the dealer is doing something wrong when changing the lower end gear oil for regular maintenance. Do they do a pressure check when changing lower end oil? Maybe too much pressure when testing or not changing the fill screw gaskets?
bottomup posted 04-20-2015 09:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
We have never changed the fill screw gasket. I never knew then needed to be changed before or around 300 hours of running. When we did see water in the oil, we did pressure test and never lost vacuum. But we did change the seals, anyways. This is my third set of engines to do this. I have been running boats for over 35 years or more. I have owned more than 20 engines and I have never had this happen to any of them. Only on this hull have I had this problem. I re-powered my Ocean Master the same time I re-powered my Whaler, and no problems at all on that boat with gear cases.
OMCguru posted 04-21-2015 09:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
Are you using the same props from previous repower?
bottomup posted 04-21-2015 05:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
No I went to 14-3/4 x 21 Mercury MIRAGE from 14-1/4 x 21 OMC SST propellers. The Mercury MIRAGE propellers were used. I had Frank and Jimmys propeller shop in Fort Lauderdale check them out and make sure they were to factory specs. New hubs in propellers, as well. My OMC 225-HP Ocean Runner engines had 14-1/4 x 19 (or 20) OMC RAKER propellers, brand new with engines. My BRP 250-HP DI engines had 14-1/4 x 21 OMC SST propellers, brand new with engines. And now E-TEC 250-HP engines using used Mercury MIRAGE propellers. Three sets of engines doing the same thing. No skeg or propeller damage, and no fishing line around propellers.
jimh posted 04-22-2015 08:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If you include the engine speed data, gear ratio, and boat speed data, we can calculate the SLIP using the Propeller Calculator at

A SLIP calculated at 7 is typical. There is nothing unusual about that amount of SLIP.

You originally said about your boat that, "I get a little slipping." You also said, "the port engine slips and has slipped since I got the boat."

What exactly are you trying to describe? I don't think that you were describing something that is seen when the calculated SLIP is 7.

conch posted 04-22-2015 10:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
Seems like alot of toe you are describing. I have never heard of 2-inch or greater toe.

With twin Yamaha two-cycle 250-HP outboard engines on the same hull and spaced 32-inches on-center, the toe-in is about 3/8-inch. Hydraulic jackplates provide for 5-inch of lift. [The performance data above is for] Yamaha three-blade 13-3/4 x 19-M propellers, [an engine speed of] 5,750-RPM, [and a load of] two persons and 150-gallons of fuel.

I would sure try propellers before redrilling the transom.

Also, you said the engines are all the way down; that is another area to try changing first. I use water pressure gauges along with water temperature gauges to monitor my lift.--Chuck

bottomup posted 04-26-2015 03:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
When this started I was working 17 days straight in the boat and my other Cap was telling me what was going on.I was burned out.I drive my Ocean Master.My other Cap tried the natural toe.When you cut loose the tie bar and let the engine find it toe.He did this to some slipping going on.It ended up at 2 inch toe. it was not working to get on a plane.I was in the water working on getting it back to where it was before.He did not write down the length of the tie bar.long story short I missed that the tie bar ends were bad as well.Changed the tie bar and got everything at a 7% slip and props working well.I still am looking at the problem of why the gear case get water in them.Like I said usually after 3 to 4 hundred hours and from the factory. Right now at 3500 rpm I am doing 35 Mph.The boat does 52 wide open.I have a little over a 1/2 of toe right now.
jimh posted 04-26-2015 11:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If I understand your most recent comments, the situation is as follows:

--there is no excessive propeller slip

--you no longer are planning on changing the engine mounting to increase the center-to-center spacing by 2-inches

--the remaining problem is only in regard to the failure of some seal in some part of the gear case of the engines.

Where are the engines set now for their Toe-In or Toe-Out? Give us the dimension and the direction.

jimh posted 04-27-2015 12:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The situation with the gear case water intrusion reminds me of the situation in the wonderful Stanley Kubrick cinematic classis "2001--A Space Odyssey."

The failure of the AE-35 unit is predicted by HAL, the supervisory computer on the spacecraft. When the AE-35 unit is retrieved and tested, everything is fine. HAL suggests that the proper course of action is to restore the AE-35 to service, and wait for it to fail, as he predicted.

Your E-TEC M2 gear case seals are in an analogous situation. You are predicting they will fail in 300-hours. I suggest you run them for 300-hours and check them again. The changes you made to the engine tie-bar, both in the toe-in or toe-out (we don't know which) and to the repair of the loose fittings that were allowing the engines to rattle around, may have affected the gear case seal problem.

Re the M2 gear case: are you using the original trim tab fin on the lower side of the Anti-Ventilation plate? Those fins have a cooling water inlet and direct cooling water into the gear case. Some situations where propeller with a lot of rake are used required the trim tabs to be removed. Are you using propellers with a lot rake and have you removed the trip tab fins?

conch posted 04-27-2015 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for conch  Send Email to conch     
Bottomup your speeds sound real good. Did you remove the hardtop and windshield, or was this one of the "Palm Beach" models shown at the Miami Boat Show? Your upholstery in two tone looks nice as well.
bottomup posted 04-28-2015 07:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Jim H--before I had [a problem] with the tie bar, I still had problems with the gear cases getting water in them from my Ocean Runner 225 engines to my BRP FICHT 250 engines and now my 250 BRP E-TEC engines. I am not sure what to do at this point as far as moving the engines from a 26-inch center to a 28 or larger center. Right now I have Toe-in. I have between a 1/2 and 3/4-inch toe-in. I am using the Mercury Mirage 14-3/4 x 21. I am not sure if this is a lot of rake on this propeller to take the trim tab fins off. I still have them on right now. Thank you for all of the input so far Jimh

Conch--my boat was like that when I bought it. Someone had already removed the top I think. I did not know they made a model without the windows on it. My hull is a 1993.

jimh posted 04-28-2015 12:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The Mercury MIRAGEplus propeller is not a high-rake propeller. I am running a MIRAGEplus on my E-TEC V6 225-HP engine, and there is no problem with interference with the trim tab fin on the bottom of the Anti-Ventilation plate.

I asked about the fin on the bottom of the Anti-Ventilation plate because that also has the function of a water pick-up. It carries cooling water into the lower part of the gear case exhaust. I believe this was added in order to help keep the exhaust path cooler. The temperature of the exhaust was getting rather high in some cases, and the high temperature was suspected to be causing the plastic hub inserts often used in propellers these days to become soft and too pliable. I was thinking that perhaps having really hot exhaust might also affect the condition of some of the seals in the gear case.

bottomup posted 04-28-2015 03:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Jim thanks for the input.Just three different sets of engines doing the same thing out of the box from the factory within 300 to 400 hours of running.That is why I am starting to think it is the hull or the way the engines are mounted at 26 inch centers.I am not sure why it would make a difference from 26 to 28 inch centers but I am just looking for a answer to correct the problem.
seahorse posted 04-29-2015 09:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

Just out of curiosity, did the propshaft seals show signs of melting or charring after the 300 hours?

bottomup posted 05-01-2015 08:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Seahorse. No they did not show signs of melting at all.So far everything I have looked at I think it is the way the water is coming down the hull and cooling the gear case.I am not sure of this but it is the only this at this point that makes and since at all.We have tested the seals different times and they were not leaking.But the drive shaft when under load does bend a little. but still 3 different sets of engines doing the same thing.The only thing I know to try is set the engines from a 26 to 28 inch center.But I an going to look at the hull and engine placement when I pull it to paint the bottom.
Jefecinco posted 05-01-2015 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
It's difficult to believe that the direction or force of water flow on an outboard engine will force water into the gear case. If your boat was running at very high speeds, maybe, but still unlikely.

Before remounting the engines with all the attendant costs associated with such a project I would absolutely eliminate ALL other possibilities.

Are you certain all the seals replaced on your lowers were fresh OEM parts? Are you also certain the mechanic working on your engines is fully qualified for the work? Has he had the factory training necessary for him to consider and eliminate any possible causes for the leaks?

From your reports it appears that your engines are well dialed in for optimum performance with your boat. I would almost rather pay to replace the seals every three years than change, so radically, my setup.

Perhaps another shop should be under consideration.


bottomup posted 05-01-2015 05:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
My Ocean master with twin 300 E tecs I have no problems at all.I great up in the Bahamas and I have been boating for many years.I have owned over 20 or more engines in my life time and I have never had a problem with engines like I am having on this Whaler.three sets of engines new from the factory doing the same thing after or around 300 hours of running.So I am thing out of all the boats I have owned and all the engines I have had why is this hull doing this or why are these engines on this hull doing this.I am pilling the boat to paint the bottom in a few weeks.I am going to look at the hull and mounting at the same time.
Don SSDD posted 05-01-2015 07:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
I agree, this makes no sense. I haven't ever read of anyone having a problem like this so to say it is a problem with the hull, you'd think someone else would have had this issue.

On all your other boats/motors, were they treated the same and serviced the same?

Did these motors just start to leak, then you tested them? Or were they pressure tested before any signs of a leak and then they leaked?


seahorse posted 05-02-2015 07:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

Does your dealer tech use the Evinrude Gearcase Alignment Pins #5007231 or does he just push it up and tighten the bolts?

bottomup posted 05-02-2015 11:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Seahorse--I do not know if [the dealer tech] used [the Evinrude Gearcase Alignment Pins #5007231] or not, but I will find out.

I just do not understand why all three sets of engines from the factory have done this [i.e., had water intrusion into the gear case] before they were even touched except to change gear case oil. I changed [gear case oil] every 100-hours or less with my OMC Ocean Runner's, the same on my BRP DI's, and every 150-hours on my E-TEC's. I even wax my engines every six months, change fuel filters every six months, and change spark plugs every 150 hours. or so. I take really great care of my engines.

jimh posted 05-02-2015 11:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
To summarize what has been reported, on a 1992 Boston Whaler 27 OFFSHORE with the transom drilled for engine spacing on 26-inch centers, three different sets of new twin engines have all shown problems with intrusion of water into the gear case after 300 to 400-hours of operation.

The notions put forth are as follows:

--a gear case should not require new seals after 300 to 400 hours of operation;

--the gear case lubricant has always been changed at 100-hour intervals

--the owner-operator has owned and operated other engines on other boats and not experienced this problem

--three different sets of different types of propellers have been used

--the cause of the gear case seal failure is related to the hull or the mounting on only 26-inch centers

bottomup posted 05-02-2015 06:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
Jim I would say that is about it.I wish I could figure this out.Or another mechanic could.I have a buddy that does a lot of glass work and he is going to help me with mounting them on a 28 inch center if I decide to do that.At this point I do not see how it could be the gear cases on all of the engines,My RPM profile is in the 95% range of 4000 or less.
bottomup posted 05-03-2015 07:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for bottomup  Send Email to bottomup     
I was looking back through my paper work.Most of the time it has been the port engine gear case getting water in it first.Seahorse are you on Evinrude E nation as well?
seahorse posted 05-04-2015 11:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

I hang around and sometimes for grins and giggles I poke fun at the keyboard cowboys, forum fanatics, and bulletin board bullies on The Hull Truth.

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