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Torque: 3.3-liter compared to 2.5-liter
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
Torque: 3.3-liter compared to 2.5-liter
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| Author | Topic: Torque: 3.3-liter compared to 2.5-liter |
| peteinsf |
posted 05-10-2015 03:53 PM ET (US) 
I found a pair of used [Evinrude E-TEC] 200-HP engine for sale with only 340 hour logged. I quickly said yes, and afterwards realized the motors were the 60-degree 2.5-liter displacement compared to the 90-degree 3.3-liter displacement E-TEC 200 H.O.. [My boat, a] Challenger 25, currently has a pair of 1996 90-degree V6 3.3-liter caburetor 200-HP engines. [The boat and those engines] ran great--other than the gas mileage, smoking, hard starting, stalling, and etc. The engines had lots of torque for this heaviest of the classic 25-foot hulls, and made trip after trip to Southeast Farallon Island. For some history, on my 1985 Montauk I had a 60-degree 115 that I did not like much and replaced with a 90-degree looper 120-HP that I adored--other than the resulting boat trim). My worry I that these new 2.5-liter engines will lack the torque I associate with all the loop charged models and cruise speedl will suffer. On San Francisco Bay and the Gulf of the Farallon's, wide-open throttle is not normally the concern; tractor-like power over big swells and through heavy chop is. Has anyone replaced an old 90-degree 200 with a 2.5-liter E=TEC 200 or 175, and had a bad result? Either way, I guess I will find out. |
| Peter |
posted 05-10-2015 07:50 PM ET (US)
Your carburetor engines are only 3.0-liter. The 60-degree motors are 2.6-liter. On the standard 25 foot hull the 2.6-liter 60-degree motors should be fine. |
| jimh |
posted 05-12-2015 07:44 PM ET (US)
There probably is not going to be as much difference in torque when changing from a 3.0-liter V6 to a 2.6-liter V6, a 13-percent decrease in displacement as you anticipated would occur by going from a 3.3-liter engine to a 2.5-liter engine, a 24-percent decrease in displacement. The E-TEC engine is a direct-injection engine. It runs like a diesel engine--you set the throttle and it runs at that engine speed. It behaves quite differently than a carburetor engine in responding to throttle setting and loads. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-13-2015 10:23 AM ET (US)
quote: Yes but to be fair this seems to be common with all new DI modern two stroke design motors. I absolutely loved that engine ability as well on my pervious boat running DI two stroke and wow did it ever make a difference in rough sea and constantly changing conditions on any given trip. It's ability to handle heavy loads as well was outstanding. |
| andygere |
posted 05-13-2015 02:01 PM ET (US)
I've been running a 60-degree 2.6L E-TEC 200 on my Outrage 22 Cuddy for many years now. The motor has very good torque, and pulls better on the low end than the old Merc 200 Black Max that it replaced. I think the light weight and compact design makes it a great option for twin engines on your boat, and I would be surprised if there is any noticeable loss of performance in the conditions that you are concerned the most about. |
| jimh |
posted 05-13-2015 02:25 PM ET (US)
Martyn writes regarding my comment that the E-TEC runs like a diesel:
quote: I can't offer any observations about other direct-injection two-cycle engines because I have not had a chance to run any of them. I just have run the E-TEC, and, since the E-TEC seems to be the engine under discussion, I think it is reasonable to offer my direct observations about the E-TEC. As for what other "new DI modern two stroke design motors" may be available, the list cannot be very long. As far as I can tell, the list of direct-injection outboard engines of either two-cycle or four-cycle design is a very short list: --the Evinrude FICHT or RAM --the Evinrude E-TEC --the Evinrude E-TEC G2 --the Mercury OptiMax Re the OptiMax, I don't recall any prior reports about its ability to maintain a steady throttle setting as the load varied. Generally the prior reports that I recall about the OptiMax performance were mainly recitations from a non-owner of promotional claims from Mercury. But, please be assured, if anyone wants to describe their experience with an OptiMax engine as having the low-speed torque and power of a diesel and the ability to maintain engine speed under loads, this would be a good place for those owners to come forward--to be fair. |
| jimh |
posted 05-13-2015 02:32 PM ET (US)
Andy--thanks for your first-hand report of direct experience with the E-TEC 2.6-liter V6 engine and for a direct comparison to a carburetor engine of earlier technology and design. That is great information for this discussion. |
| peteinsf |
posted 05-13-2015 07:15 PM ET (US)
Thanks guys, I am feeling much better about the small blocks from the positive reports. Hopefully I can pick them up in a week or two and get started on the rigging. |
| peteinsf |
posted 05-13-2015 07:19 PM ET (US)
Thanks guys, I am feeling much better about the small blocks from the positive reports. Hopefully I can pick them up in a week or two and get started on the rigging. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-13-2015 07:21 PM ET (US)
[jimh says] quote: Absolutely, never claimed its not reasonable. Basically a really accurate description is where I was at with that, and can be shared, which is both fair and reasonable inputs as far as I'm concerned. Probably are correct when you say the list is not that long, there are not too many companies making the two stroke anymore due to the popularity of the Four Stroke market. In fact even the Optimax seems to be diminishing to leave only the E-TEC as the main comapny with that particular market. Its a shame in a way because the two stroke does have some nice strong features, and the diesel like comparison is very honest like description of how they preform especially under load. I wouldn't hesitate to look and consider another modern two stroke in the future if I was in the market for a new engine. |
| andygere |
posted 05-13-2015 07:58 PM ET (US)
peteinsf, let me know if you need any info on rigging. I hung and rigged my E-TEC myself, and probably still have the OEM rigging manual. |
| jimh |
posted 05-14-2015 11:10 AM ET (US)
Martyn--your proposal that all direct-injection engines display the qualities I reported to have experienced with my E-TEC would be more strongly supported if you could give us some first-hand reports of these other engines. I still can't accept your proposal that all direct-injection engines will have the qualities I have observed in an E-TEC. You are making quite a leap to the general from the specific. I would prefer you shared a few more specifics, like some first-hand direct observations, to support your general claim. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-14-2015 04:16 PM ET (US)
Jim, your not buying my proposal. I actually said "all new DI modern two stroke design motors" and not all DI motors. That would be false, and I didn't say that. I'm not on here trying to start a debate on a motor to other motor comparison not interested sorry. Simply an observation that seemed your diesel comment is accurate "description" of your motor. I share that, I get it, been there before and like it. DI engines share this description is a true comment. Do you want me to post numbers of the engines I use to use on my old boat right here? Sounds like it would be inappropriate and off topic to me. |
| jimh |
posted 05-14-2015 05:55 PM ET (US)
Martyn--I quoted you exactly. What I can't come to accept is that you are making a very general statement, but you don't offer one particular to corroborate it. If you think all engines of some particular category have the same characteristics as I described for my E-TEC, why don't you just mention one of those engines in addition to the E-TEC? If you mention one other engine, then we could have TWO engines that have a particular characteristic of performance. Now, from two engines, perhaps we could begin to formulate some sort of general observation. But it seems quite a giant leap to go from me saying an E-TEC has a certain characteristic to you saying all the engines that employ direct injection have those characteristics. I even gave you a proposed list of other engines that might fit your generalized category, but you didn't comment about any of those engines. Is there any specific engine you have experience with that behaves in the same manner as I described for the E-TEC? |
| jimh |
posted 05-14-2015 06:05 PM ET (US)
PETEINSF--I have to tell you about a characteristic of the E-TEC--actually I want to warn you about this. The throttle control of an E-TEC behaves quite differently from what you are accustomed to with a carburetor engine. When the throttle of a carburetor engine is pulled back quickly from full throttle, the carburetor engine will decelerate, but the deceleration will be gentle. The engine speed will drift down over a few seconds. Be careful when you have the E-TEC engines. If you very rapidly pull the throttles back from full throttle to idle speed, the engines will decelerate nearly as fast, and speed will come off the boat in a blink of an eye. You will find yourself lurching forward and grabbing onto something to maintain your balance. That is a characteristic of the E-TEC. The throttle control acts with an extremely positive and direct control over the engine speed. You will learn to love the E-TEC for this feature, particularly when you want to put your boat onto plane at slow speeds in rough seas. I gave a description of a passage across a very rough Georgian Bay on afternoon when we had to make way upwind. We could only make about 12-MPH. I set the throttle of the E-TEC, and then kept both hands on the steering wheel as I drove the boat upwind, around, through, and over the closely spaced waves. What a fantastic engine! It just maintained the speed with hardly any variation as the boat encountered all kinds of varying loads from the waves. In my previous experience with an engine of the same rated power but with carburetors, I would have needed one hand for the throttle to keep the engine speed controlled. With the very tight computer control of the E-TEC and its direct-injection system, I could leave the throttle set and give all my attention to the helm. The E-TEC engine responds like no other engine I have used, particularly not any carburetor engine. I anticipate you will find the E-TEC engine to be a delightful improvement on your boat. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-15-2015 02:30 AM ET (US)
quote: Again not exactly I said " all MODERN DI engines. please read carefully. You had said that I said all DI motors thats a different story. Your list is accurate on all MODERN DI motors because thats what we are talking about here after-all. It is somewhat a general comment and it was meant that way in light manner. Your comment is really no different then mine you believe the ETEC can be described as a diesel characteristic. Its your opinion. Nobody is asking for model number data or specs etc from you. I happen to think its bang on but it also is a characteristic of a "modern" two stroke DI motors thats what they do best. If you can't except that I'm sorry too bad. Why you are making a big deal about it is really beyond me. I simply don't get it. However since you seem personally really interested I would be happy to email you some personal experience data with another engine that shares my general comment to be true with the ETEC. Honestly, I really don't think anybody else seems to care. I really don't think they want to hear about me and my previous experiences with my two stroke engines on this thread. I don't even want to hear about it lol. I don't even own them anymore. Ironically, I currently run a Carburetor Yamaha 200 OX66 V6, and I can assure you it nowhere near shares the same diesel like description. However I do really like it. I am happy for you though, and your ETEC its great. |
| jimh |
posted 05-15-2015 10:27 AM ET (US)
Martyn--OK. I believe you are saying you have nothing specific to offer here in terms of first-hand observation of engines having a diesel-like performance and throttle response. I will not press you further. By the way, the Yamaha Ox66 series outboard engines are quite interesting to me, as I believe they are perhaps the only outboard engines of their era that used a closed-loop fuel-air control system. They have an exhaust sensor that provides feedback to the control system. Most other fuel-injection (not direct-injection) engines of comparable production epoch lacked any sort of exhaust sensor and tended to operate their fuel injection in an open-loop control mode. As far as I can tell, the Ox66 engines do not have carburetors. For more about them see this report from a well-known marine surveyor. |
| jimh |
posted 05-15-2015 10:30 AM ET (US)
ASIDE to Martyn: maybe you can send me the list of direct-injection outboard engines that must be excluded by virtue of not being "modern". Direct-Injection is such a recent development in outboard engines that I cannot think of any direct-injection outboard engine that would not be modern. In other words, there just are not any non-modern direct-injection outboard engines. The criterion "modern" is not much of a qualifier in selecting which direct-injection outboard engines might be considered. |
| Peter |
posted 05-15-2015 11:20 AM ET (US)
I'm not sure I understand the throttle setting issue. I have owned carb'd, EFI (Ox66) and DFI 2-strokes (two types of these). They all operated such that you set the throttle and the motor runs at that engine speed. I never had a situation where I set the throttle and one day it ran at one speed and the other day it ran at a different speed. |
| jimh |
posted 05-15-2015 11:36 AM ET (US)
My experience with carburetor engines and throttle setting is as follows; the throttle setting really does not set a particular engine speed, it just sets the throttle. The engine speed varies significantly at the throttle setting as load changes. If the load increases, the engine speed decreases at that throttle setting, and vice versa. The significant difference with an E-TEC is the throttle control acts much more like an engine speed setting than just a throttle plate setting for a carburetor engine. If you set the E-TEC throttle so the engine speed is, say, 3,000-RPM, the engine will not suddenly accelerate to 4,000-RPM if the load decreases, or decelerate to 2,000-RPM if the load increases. The E-TEC will tend to run at the speed you set, even as the load varies. The load tends to vary when the boat operates in waves. A constant problem I have experienced with a carburetor engine throttle setting occurs when running on plane. Assume you are on plane and the engine speed is 3,900-RPM and a boat speed of 25-MPH. The boat interacts with some waves in some manner that changes the load, and the engine responds, without a change in throttle setting, to accelerate to 4,500-RPM and pushes the boat to 30-MPH. This used to happen all the time with my carburetor engine. With the E-TEC, this tendency is almost completely eliminated. I set the throttle to the engine speed I want, and the engine runs at that speed for long periods of time without any further setting of the throttle. With other engines I would have to be working the throttles to adjust engine speed almost continually. I believe there are two factors causing this to occur: --better control over engine fuel with the direct injection and engine management module compared to the Venturi effect and air flow through a carburetor; and, --a wide range of engine speeds at which the same amount of torque can be delivered. These two factors make the E-TEC engine response to throttle and load seem very favorable. |
| Peter |
posted 05-16-2015 06:21 AM ET (US)
Interesting. I've never had that surging happen in any of my numerous boats with carbureted engines. I think that may have been a problem unique to your setup. I wonder whether there was something wrong with the spark advance linkage in the motor. |
| jimh |
posted 05-16-2015 08:11 AM ET (US)
Peter--I have seen the same response from many outboard engines, including ones using simple fuel-injection. I am confident there was nothing unique to my engine or anything wrong with it. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-16-2015 11:50 PM ET (US)
"As far as I can tell, the Ox66 engines do not have carburetors. For more about them see this report from a well-known marine surveyor." Jim-- This is my first Yamaha ever and I'm back in time a bit with the technology with this one but there is definitely carburetors. I keep hearing about this oxygen sensor to keep in good condition so it doesn't go whacky on your performance. When I first got the motor I looked and could not find it anywhere. After some research it seems they offered it in two versions. One was the EFI version and the other was just carbruators. The difference is one has straight carbs no [FI] and the other is the fuel injection one that has to do with the sensor. They stopped making the straight carb in 2000 or 2002. Further more the v6 200 has the same cowel design and the only difference is the decal where it says EFI fuel injection. The other is of course inside on the port side there is a silver colour canister that is mounted and it houses this sensor. Picture of my carburetor 1999 Yamaha V6 200 Ox66 -- take note of the (rather clean) three brass colour carbs directly mounted on the front. http://s813.photobucket.com/user/martyn1075/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ image_1.jpg.html |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-17-2015 12:10 AM ET (US)
I have never had the carbruator Yamaha surge an entire 1000 rpm however I fully understand what Jim is talking about on first hand experimence with this motor and the last boat which had 2007 Optimax's. This is the motor that I have experienced this diesel like description. Basically you set the throttle and the power doesn't budge or waver no matter what condition. In fact you have to decrease because you feel like you are going to get thrown out of the boat. I think it's defiantly the DI in a "modern" engine but also the throttle control. Another spec I can share to described this would be running at low rpm 3500- cursing at 25-26 knots the engine has a low hum barly working and just keeps the power strong. In fact 3200 could still keep the boat on plane and experience this diesel like low rpm performance. They were pushing a very long 31 foot overall and 9.7 foot beam Whaler so I found it to be rather impressive. The Yamaha needs to be up at over 4000 rpm and it just doesn't hold nearly as well. It sounds like it's spinning real fast and working hard. I quite often have to make several adjustments along the way to balance the load. Never had to do that with the Opimax and I think is generally the exact same response with the E-TEC. |
| jimh |
posted 05-17-2015 07:47 AM ET (US)
Thanks to Martyn for the clarification about the two versions of the Yamaha engine sold under the identifier Ox66. I had never heard of the carburetor version. Unless the carburetor was quite fancy and electronic, I don't think you could control it electronically, as you can a fuel injector. Re the E-TEC: many times when we are forced to make progress upwind into head seas, we find that our boat speed must be held down to a much slower speed than the normal planing speed of 25-MPH. With the E-TEC we can get the boat on a slow plane around 12-MPH, and the engine will maintain that speed without much attention to the throttle, letting the boat work its way upwind and into head seas at a much more pleasant speed. We don't particularly like to make our way upwind into larger head seas, but in our type of boating there are times when we have no other option. It is at those times that we really love the range of power provided by the E-TEC. The fuel economy at these slow planing speeds is not very good, but the increase in comfort to the boat occupants is worth the extra cost in fuel consumed. And not having to continually adjust the throttle to maintain the slow plane speed is greatly appreciated. |
| jimh |
posted 05-17-2015 07:52 AM ET (US)
I may have exaggerated the increase in engine speed which can occur with my older carburetor engines. But they would often let themselves accelerate to a higher engine speed if the boat happened to find itself in a patch of calmer seas for a moment. Instead of the boat running at, say, 25-MPH, it would accelerate to, say, 30-MPH, which would be much too fast for the sea state when you encountered the next larger set of waves. So the helmsman would have to pay attention to the engine throttle to maintain the boat speed at a more constant range. This can happen with the E-TEC, but the change in engine speed is typically much less, and the throttle does not have to be continually adjusted to maintain the boat speed in the desired range. That is the characteristic that is most attractive and distinguishes the modern, direct-injection, computer controlled outboard engine from its older cousin, the carburetor, non-computer controlled outboard engine. |
| conch |
posted 05-17-2015 09:09 AM ET (US)
Martyn you wrote "I currently run a Carburetor Yamaha 200 OX66 V6" and I think that only confused this thread for me.From your photo you clearly have a carb engine. Carb and EFI motors at 200hp were available in 1999. EFI engines had the oxygen sensor,carb did not,but both were available in the Saltwater series. What is the model number of your engine.Have you adopted saying OX66 from a decal on the engine hood,which may not be original? As it is confusing. Thanks Chuck |
| conch |
posted 05-17-2015 09:28 AM ET (US)
Might as well throw the Yamaha HPDI engines into the mix.They are Direct Injection and available up to 300hp. |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-17-2015 11:59 AM ET (US)
I have taken a few photos below of each to hopefully clarify the differences. Keep in mind I am not a expert on these engines in fact 15 years later I'm now learning about them. I have been a bit spoiled with newer technology on previous boats I have owned. I am now going the other way this time around for now. Yamaha V6 200 Ox66 photos Cowling Decals - Fuel injection red label sticker http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8469.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/100_8349.jpg These photos are form my engine which is the straight carburetors. http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8446.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8444.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8476.jpg The Inside is where it gets interesting! Check out the inside of a Ox66 Fuel injection motor. Specifically the silver canister where its mounted and also three fuel pumps. Further changes on the starboard side. http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8472.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8473.jpg The black rounded piece on the top right handed side towards the back is the harness for the oxygen sensor. I can't seem to find that at all on mine. http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8479.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8480.jpg Only two pumps on my older design carb version the EFI uses three. http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/martyn1075/ Yamaha%20V6%20200%20Ox66%20Engines/IMG_8483.jpg |
| peteinsf |
posted 05-17-2015 02:02 PM ET (US)
My experience with motors is exactly as Jim described. RPM drops on uphill swells, over revs on the back side. This also occurs in choppy seas, sort of an SF bay constant. With that you have to be diligent with throttle control. For me this can be unworkable with engines that have poor mid range power. The result is that you will keep dropping out of plane or have to go faster than comfortable to keep up a minimum speed when the environment varies. I would love it if the small blocks don't bogged down under variable loads. That diesel like behavior is what I am after. More than minimum mid range power was always my solution in the past with the side benefit of WOT performance, but I would happily give that up. |
| conch |
posted 05-17-2015 06:05 PM ET (US)
Martyn,Nice pictures of the different engines.Do you agree there is no "Carburetor Yamaha 200 OX66 V6" that you can currently (or ever)own? Or did I miss a photo? Chuck |
| martyn1075 |
posted 05-17-2015 07:08 PM ET (US)
Conch-- now you are confusing me this time around. The one I have is definetly a carbruater version. I did take some photos of the one I have in the last post. There is no oxygen sensor like the others. Basic old carb engine. It's alright but not an E-TEC DI that's for sure. |
| conch |
posted 05-17-2015 10:36 PM ET (US)
No problem Martyn,its all good.Enjoy your Yamaha and your summer. Chuck |
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