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Author Topic:   Fuel Gauge Sender: Electrical

jimh posted 10-19-2005 01:54 PM ET (US)
If your Boston Whaler has an electrical fuel gauge sender, you might consider replacing it with a new sender from CENTROID PRODUCTS of Edgewater, Florida. (They're just down the road a bit from Boston Whaler's factory!)
The CENTROID PRODUCTS sender is designed with no moving parts. It senses the fuel tank level measuring the capacitance between two concentric tubes which are immersed into the tank. As the liquid level rises, the capacitance between the tubes is affected, and this is translated into a signal which can be connected to a standard fuel level gauge (a milliamp meter, typically). The electronics are encapsulated in epoxy and should be maintenance-free.
In addition to no moving parts, the sensor has another benefit: it can detect water in your fuel! The presence of water apparently has quite an effect on the capcitance, causing the indicator to significantly change its response.
The sender is fabricated with the standard five-hole bolt pattern typically found on Florida Marine Tanks as seen in Boston Whaler boats. When installing the sender, the length of the tubes is custom fit to your tank. You use a tubing cutter to trim them to the right length depending on the depth of your tank.
Each unit is calibrated to a particular installation. The empty calibration can be done before installing the unit into the tank. The full calibration is set once you top off the tank.
The claimed advantage of this sender include a reduction in gauge bouncing when fuel is sloshing around. The sender is compatible with most electric fuel gauge meters, but some VDO-brand meters need a special model.
For more information see the CENTROID PRODUCTS website:
http://www.centroidproducts.com/tableofc.htm
I have not tried one of these myself, but I like the concept of no moving parts and individual calibration.

jimh posted 10-19-2005 01:59 PM ET (US)
Detailed price and application information is found in this document:
http://www.centroidproducts.com/dord01.pdf

It looks like a common sender unit would cost about $50.
Liteamorn posted 10-19-2005 03:34 PM ET (US)
This sounds like a GREAT new product, I work in the oil industry and the technology is there for a water sensing unit. When I mesure how much gas or oil is in a tank (with an electronic tool called an "MMC") we just lower the sensor bob all the way to the bottom of the tank and it reads water, I wondered how long it was going to take for this to happen.
Ed
jimh posted 10-20-2005 11:25 PM ET (US)
I have the boat home tonight and I was out with a flashlight looking at the tank fitting for the level gauge (in the 40-degree evening air). It is NOT a five-hole SAE standard flange, and I wonder now if these level senders can be fitted to the normal classic Boston Whaler fuel tank with mechanical sender. At first glance it does not look like it.
daverdla posted 10-21-2005 08:06 AM ET (US)
Here's another neat multitank solution I've been considering for our trawler:
http://www.nauquip.com/tanktender.html
The centroid is proabably a better solution because it will convert the measured liquid height to volume even for odd shaped tanks. Unfortunately, it won't do holding tanks. I need to monitor two fuel tanks, two water tanks and one holding tank.
Dave
Jerry Townsend posted 10-21-2005 11:46 PM ET (US)
Dave - It looks like the unit you linked is a differential pressure device - special extruded nylon tubing, et.al. That would also explain the different calibration required for each fluid.
You mention the Centroid device will not work on holding tanks - why? If it is in their literature, I missed it. I would think that it would not make any difference - as it is simply looking at a capacitance measurement.
Jimh - If the diameter of the mounting plate is large enough, one could drill 4 new holes on the hole pattern of the existing tank to match the existing 5 hole pattern.
I like the capacitor indication device - should work like a dream - and be accurate, linear and trouble free. I would even like to put one in my pickup - so I will get hold of that company and explore that one with them too. --- Jerry/Idaho
daverdla posted 10-22-2005 04:59 PM ET (US)
Jerry,
Somewhere on their website they state that they no longer do holding tanks. Probably too many failures from getting clogged with toilet paper or worse. Its a shame really because the centroid would be a better solution for me. I do like the simplicity of the tank tender but looking up gallons/inch on a chart can't beat reading the volume on the centroid.
A quick search turned up another solution:
http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/liquid.htm
It doesn't look like it can be calibrated for odd shaped tanks.

Dave
jimh posted 10-24-2005 10:21 AM ET (US)
Regarding the bolt pattern: it appears the Florida Marine Tanks in Boston Whaler boats with MECHANICAL fuel level indicators use a different bolt pattern (four holes) than the SAE five-hold standard. Perhaps the Boston Whaler boats which have ELECTRICAL senders use the five-hole pattern.
Comments from owners of Boston Whaler boats with electrical fuel senders are welcome. Does your boat have the SAE five-hole pattern on the sender port?
dongordon posted 11-21-2005 12:55 PM ET (US)
My 18' Guardian has an SAE five screw sender cap with a red wire connecting to the center of the cap plate and a black wire snapping onto a clip on he top edge of the cap. My fuel gauge has a logo with a single letter Q and a line beneath the Q. Does anyone recogize that trademark? Does any one know the ohm reading on the 5 hole sending reading? Thank you.
Buckda posted 11-22-2005 05:47 PM ET (US)
How about a source for a replacement MECHANICAL sender for the OEM Whaler tanks, built by Florida Marine Tanks.
We have sources in the OEM section for the Tanks, and the gauge, but not the sender.
In the attempt to replace my gauge, I've broken a very small screw head off, and will need to replace the entire sender unit.
Dave
JOHN W MAYO posted 11-22-2005 10:07 PM ET (US)
Buckda,
I think this may be the source for the possible the original??.......fuel guage. Someome gave me the link a long time ago.....go there and you can see the pictures, etc
http://www.e-components.net/4holegauge.htm

4 Bolt Hole Fuel Gauge
Jr. 4 bolt hole fuel gauge
(item pictured has fixed length)
* Top or side mount
* Direct read or direct read with remote transmitter
* Buna-N gasket & hardware included
* Adjustable models available for tank depths of 5" to 24"and risers less than 1 1/2"
* Fixed length gauges are available for larger tanks upon request.

Sr. 4 bolt hole fuel gauge
(item pictured has fixed length)
* Direct read or direct read with remote transmitter
* Buna-N gasket & hardware included
* Adjustable models for tank depths of 5" to 24" and risers less than 1 1/2"
* Fixed length gauges are available for larger tanks upon request.

These gauges are widely used to measure levels of fuels, hydraulic fluids,
refrigerants, lube oils. Optional models available for use in cryogenic products
and pressures up to 500 PSIG.

e-Components International, Inc......
307 Spring Hill Road
Lancaster, Virginia 22503
804-462-5679 - 1-800-640-1556
Fax 804-462-0556-------
sales@e-components.net-------
Buckda posted 11-23-2005 10:42 AM ET (US)
Thanks John-
I didn't see that on their site orignally. I ordered a replacement dial from them earlier this fall when I was preparing for this project.
Great people out there at E-Components.
I'll give them another call.
JimH -
Sorry to slightly de-rail this thread.
Dave
JOHN W MAYO posted 11-25-2005 08:55 AM ET (US)
The 4-hole type seem hard to find for the older Whaler's. Forget West M, Boaters World, etc......this is the only place I have found them. I would confirm the dimentions, bolt pattern, etc before order
swist posted 11-25-2005 09:19 AM ET (US)
It is encouraging that some progress is being made in this area. The old pivoting-arm-on-a-variable-resistor seems to be the only fuel gauge sending technology we have ever had - and they are pretty much all crap - they can't take all the movement in a small boat, they get hung up on sides and baffles, and they are generally unreliable. This has been one case (rare in boating!) that you can't spend the money you would like to for a better product.
jimh posted 05-31-2006 12:26 AM ET (US)
If anyone has ordered one of these CENTROID PRODUCTS fuel level sensors, I would be very interested to hear a report on how it worked for you.
DjPro posted 05-31-2006 01:35 PM ET (US)
I had the same situation/frustrations last year on my '79 V-20. So this year I installed a Flo-scan gauge (5500) and love it. I know exactly how much fuel I have in the tank and can monitor my fuel consumption and make RPM/trim adjustments as necessary. Material costs under $300 and a weekend afternoon of labor to install. Now I use the old fuel gauge as a manual backup.
jimh posted 05-31-2006 04:58 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the information about the FLO SCAN. There are many prior discussion whose topics are the FLO SCAN and other devices which manage fuel systems. Such devices attempt to compute the level of fuel in a tank via an indirect measurement. The topic of this discussion is electronic tank level sensors. These devices register the tank level via direct measurement. The particular device under discussion uses an innovative technique to directly measure the tank level.
Devices such as the Flo-Scan or the Navman fuel computer are only as accurate as the data which the vessel operator enters into them. If the vessel master does not enter accurate data into the fuel management computer, they cannot produce accurate results. The device under discussion here makes a direct measurement of the tank level and does not require any data input from the vessel master during normal operation.
Again, if people have installed the innovative tank level sensor made by CENTROID PRODUCTS that is the topic of this discussion, please let me know. Thanks.

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Author	Topic: Fuel Gauge Sender: Electrical
jimh	posted 10-19-2005 01:54 PM ET (US) If your Boston Whaler has an electrical fuel gauge sender, you might consider replacing it with a new sender from CENTROID PRODUCTS of Edgewater, Florida. (They're just down the road a bit from Boston Whaler's factory!) The CENTROID PRODUCTS sender is designed with no moving parts. It senses the fuel tank level measuring the capacitance between two concentric tubes which are immersed into the tank. As the liquid level rises, the capacitance between the tubes is affected, and this is translated into a signal which can be connected to a standard fuel level gauge (a milliamp meter, typically). The electronics are encapsulated in epoxy and should be maintenance-free. In addition to no moving parts, the sensor has another benefit: it can detect water in your fuel! The presence of water apparently has quite an effect on the capcitance, causing the indicator to significantly change its response. The sender is fabricated with the standard five-hole bolt pattern typically found on Florida Marine Tanks as seen in Boston Whaler boats. When installing the sender, the length of the tubes is custom fit to your tank. You use a tubing cutter to trim them to the right length depending on the depth of your tank. Each unit is calibrated to a particular installation. The empty calibration can be done before installing the unit into the tank. The full calibration is set once you top off the tank. The claimed advantage of this sender include a reduction in gauge bouncing when fuel is sloshing around. The sender is compatible with most electric fuel gauge meters, but some VDO-brand meters need a special model. For more information see the CENTROID PRODUCTS website: http://www.centroidproducts.com/tableofc.htm I have not tried one of these myself, but I like the concept of no moving parts and individual calibration.
jimh	posted 10-19-2005 01:59 PM ET (US) Detailed price and application information is found in this document: http://www.centroidproducts.com/dord01.pdf It looks like a common sender unit would cost about $50.
Liteamorn	posted 10-19-2005 03:34 PM ET (US) This sounds like a GREAT new product, I work in the oil industry and the technology is there for a water sensing unit. When I mesure how much gas or oil is in a tank (with an electronic tool called an "MMC") we just lower the sensor bob all the way to the bottom of the tank and it reads water, I wondered how long it was going to take for this to happen. Ed
jimh	posted 10-20-2005 11:25 PM ET (US) I have the boat home tonight and I was out with a flashlight looking at the tank fitting for the level gauge (in the 40-degree evening air). It is NOT a five-hole SAE standard flange, and I wonder now if these level senders can be fitted to the normal classic Boston Whaler fuel tank with mechanical sender. At first glance it does not look like it.
daverdla	posted 10-21-2005 08:06 AM ET (US) Here's another neat multitank solution I've been considering for our trawler: http://www.nauquip.com/tanktender.html The centroid is proabably a better solution because it will convert the measured liquid height to volume even for odd shaped tanks. Unfortunately, it won't do holding tanks. I need to monitor two fuel tanks, two water tanks and one holding tank. Dave
Jerry Townsend	posted 10-21-2005 11:46 PM ET (US) Dave - It looks like the unit you linked is a differential pressure device - special extruded nylon tubing, et.al. That would also explain the different calibration required for each fluid. You mention the Centroid device will not work on holding tanks - why? If it is in their literature, I missed it. I would think that it would not make any difference - as it is simply looking at a capacitance measurement. Jimh - If the diameter of the mounting plate is large enough, one could drill 4 new holes on the hole pattern of the existing tank to match the existing 5 hole pattern. I like the capacitor indication device - should work like a dream - and be accurate, linear and trouble free. I would even like to put one in my pickup - so I will get hold of that company and explore that one with them too. --- Jerry/Idaho
daverdla	posted 10-22-2005 04:59 PM ET (US) Jerry, Somewhere on their website they state that they no longer do holding tanks. Probably too many failures from getting clogged with toilet paper or worse. Its a shame really because the centroid would be a better solution for me. I do like the simplicity of the tank tender but looking up gallons/inch on a chart can't beat reading the volume on the centroid. A quick search turned up another solution: http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/liquid.htm It doesn't look like it can be calibrated for odd shaped tanks. Dave
jimh	posted 10-24-2005 10:21 AM ET (US) Regarding the bolt pattern: it appears the Florida Marine Tanks in Boston Whaler boats with MECHANICAL fuel level indicators use a different bolt pattern (four holes) than the SAE five-hold standard. Perhaps the Boston Whaler boats which have ELECTRICAL senders use the five-hole pattern. Comments from owners of Boston Whaler boats with electrical fuel senders are welcome. Does your boat have the SAE five-hole pattern on the sender port?
dongordon	posted 11-21-2005 12:55 PM ET (US) My 18' Guardian has an SAE five screw sender cap with a red wire connecting to the center of the cap plate and a black wire snapping onto a clip on he top edge of the cap. My fuel gauge has a logo with a single letter Q and a line beneath the Q. Does anyone recogize that trademark? Does any one know the ohm reading on the 5 hole sending reading? Thank you.
Buckda	posted 11-22-2005 05:47 PM ET (US) How about a source for a replacement MECHANICAL sender for the OEM Whaler tanks, built by Florida Marine Tanks. We have sources in the OEM section for the Tanks, and the gauge, but not the sender. In the attempt to replace my gauge, I've broken a very small screw head off, and will need to replace the entire sender unit. Dave
JOHN W MAYO	posted 11-22-2005 10:07 PM ET (US) Buckda, I think this may be the source for the possible the original??.......fuel guage. Someome gave me the link a long time ago.....go there and you can see the pictures, etc http://www.e-components.net/4holegauge.htm 4 Bolt Hole Fuel Gauge Jr. 4 bolt hole fuel gauge (item pictured has fixed length) * Top or side mount * Direct read or direct read with remote transmitter * Buna-N gasket & hardware included * Adjustable models available for tank depths of 5" to 24"and risers less than 1 1/2" * Fixed length gauges are available for larger tanks upon request. Sr. 4 bolt hole fuel gauge (item pictured has fixed length) * Direct read or direct read with remote transmitter * Buna-N gasket & hardware included * Adjustable models for tank depths of 5" to 24" and risers less than 1 1/2" * Fixed length gauges are available for larger tanks upon request. These gauges are widely used to measure levels of fuels, hydraulic fluids, refrigerants, lube oils. Optional models available for use in cryogenic products and pressures up to 500 PSIG. e-Components International, Inc...... 307 Spring Hill Road Lancaster, Virginia 22503 804-462-5679 - 1-800-640-1556 Fax 804-462-0556------- sales@e-components.net-------
Buckda	posted 11-23-2005 10:42 AM ET (US) Thanks John- I didn't see that on their site orignally. I ordered a replacement dial from them earlier this fall when I was preparing for this project. Great people out there at E-Components. I'll give them another call. JimH - Sorry to slightly de-rail this thread. Dave
JOHN W MAYO	posted 11-25-2005 08:55 AM ET (US) The 4-hole type seem hard to find for the older Whaler's. Forget West M, Boaters World, etc......this is the only place I have found them. I would confirm the dimentions, bolt pattern, etc before order
swist	posted 11-25-2005 09:19 AM ET (US) It is encouraging that some progress is being made in this area. The old pivoting-arm-on-a-variable-resistor seems to be the only fuel gauge sending technology we have ever had - and they are pretty much all crap - they can't take all the movement in a small boat, they get hung up on sides and baffles, and they are generally unreliable. This has been one case (rare in boating!) that you can't spend the money you would like to for a better product.
jimh	posted 05-31-2006 12:26 AM ET (US) If anyone has ordered one of these CENTROID PRODUCTS fuel level sensors, I would be very interested to hear a report on how it worked for you.
DjPro	posted 05-31-2006 01:35 PM ET (US) I had the same situation/frustrations last year on my '79 V-20. So this year I installed a Flo-scan gauge (5500) and love it. I know exactly how much fuel I have in the tank and can monitor my fuel consumption and make RPM/trim adjustments as necessary. Material costs under $300 and a weekend afternoon of labor to install. Now I use the old fuel gauge as a manual backup.
jimh	posted 05-31-2006 04:58 PM ET (US) Thanks for the information about the FLO SCAN. There are many prior discussion whose topics are the FLO SCAN and other devices which manage fuel systems. Such devices attempt to compute the level of fuel in a tank via an indirect measurement. The topic of this discussion is electronic tank level sensors. These devices register the tank level via direct measurement. The particular device under discussion uses an innovative technique to directly measure the tank level. Devices such as the Flo-Scan or the Navman fuel computer are only as accurate as the data which the vessel operator enters into them. If the vessel master does not enter accurate data into the fuel management computer, they cannot produce accurate results. The device under discussion here makes a direct measurement of the tank level and does not require any data input from the vessel master during normal operation. Again, if people have installed the innovative tank level sensor made by CENTROID PRODUCTS that is the topic of this discussion, please let me know. Thanks.