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Author Topic:   Lowrance 520c

jimh posted 04-10-2008 11:14 PM ET (US)
I just finished a bench test of the Lowrance LMS-520c, which is a moderately priced combination instrument containing a 5-inch color display, a GPSr, and a SONAR:
Lowrance 500 Series GPSr, Electronic Display, and SONAR
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/L500.html
Use this thread for any follow up question or comment.

jimh posted 04-11-2008 09:26 AM ET (US)
On the back of the LMS-520c (as well as on most of the other new models from Lowrance) there is a yellow connector marked ENET or ethernet. There is not much information in the manual about this connector, but my general understanding is that Lowrance intends it for linking to other Lowrance devices to permit data exchange at a much faster rate than could occur on the NMEA-2000 network.
Lowrance makes a new digital echo sounder, the Lowrance Broadband Sounder or LBS-1, which is housed in a separate enclosure, a so-called black-box sounder. The LBS-1 connects to a display device using the ENET connector. The display of the LMS-520c is then used to see the echograms from the LBS-1. I think you can also link two self-contained devices that have displays, and perhaps view the SONAR from another device this way.
While poking around the LMS-520c controls, I was surprised to see an IP address associated with the ENET port. It appears that Lowrance has IP networking capability via the ENET port. It would be interesting to connect a Lowrance device with ENET to a local area network and see what common protocols, if any, are supported. It would be much simpler to interface a complex device like a LMS-520c to a computer if the interconnection were via a standard unshielded twisted pair (UTP) ethernet 10-MHz network and IP network protocols were used.
The LBS-1 uses the IP address of 169.254.1.11
The manual for the LMS-520c makes reference to the ENET connector as "Network socket" and describes it as a "future enhancement."
phatwhaler posted 04-11-2008 10:23 AM ET (US)
Maybe the ENET jack is for hooking up a radar, or connecting a fly-bridge display.
jimh posted 04-11-2008 02:09 PM ET (US)
The documentation is a bit sparse on these new developments. This is a case where the product has gotten ahead of the published manuals. As I said, Lowrance intends the ENET for linking to other Lowrance devices to permit data exchange at a much faster rate than could occur on the NMEA-2000 network.
This explains the IP-addressing in the Lowrance ENET:
From http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3330.txt

quote:
169.254.0.0/16 - This is the "link local" block. It is allocated for communication between hosts on a single link. Hosts obtain these addresses by auto-configuration, such as when a DHCP server may not be found.
jmorgan40 posted 04-13-2008 08:43 AM ET (US)
Jim,
I suggest you look at the 527 if that is the direction you are heading. For about $50 more it has a much more powerful sonar. Make a huge difference marking structure and fish. Talk to Kevin (minitauk), I believe he has the same unit.
Joe
jimh posted 04-13-2008 09:03 AM ET (US)
LOWRANCE has provided a resource for boater with a computer that runs the Windows operating system which allows a terrific emulation program to be run. The emulation provides a chance to test drive the device. A mouse click replaces a button push. The emulation is really quite amazing.
If you run the emulation and navigate to the menu choice which gives information about the software version, the software version number is given, along with the target. On the emulation software the target is Windows!
On lowrance.com there is a whole directory of software emulators for their products:
http://www.lowrance.com/en/Downloads/Product-Emulators/

jimh posted 04-13-2008 06:29 PM ET (US)
Since I did not have any other NMEA-2000 devices on the bench to connect to the LMS-520c, I was only able to test its NMEA-0183 connection. To that end I used my Macintosh Laptop and its add-on serial port provided by a Keyspan High-speed USB serial port adaptor.
Interfacing the LMS-520c to the Macintosh was straightforward. The NMEA-0183 port is provided on a pigtail from the POWER connector. There are only four wires in the DATA cable:
Lowrance NMEA pigtail
LMS-520C
Rx = ORANGE
Tx = YELLOW
Common = Shield
Not used = BLUE
On the Keyspan serial port there is a familiar 9-pin plug (i.e., pins, not sockets) with more or less the standard pin arrangement:
Keyspan Serial Port Pin Out
DB-9 Signal Type
1 DCD Input
2 RxDATA Input
3 TxDATA Output
4 DTR Output
5 Ground Ground
6 DSR Input
7 RTS Output
8 CTS Input
9 RI Input
So connection should be
LMS-520c to Keyspan
Rx ORANGE to TxDATA Pin 3
Tx YELLOW to RxDATA Pin 2
SHIELD to GROUND Pin 5
I wired up a 9-pin socket on the end of the Lowrance DATA cable with the connections above and gave it a try. Initially nothing much was happening. I had to configure the Lowrance LMS-520c to activate the serial port and send the correct NMEA sentences. After a few seconds--Success! The Lowrance GPS started talking to my Macintosh.
Here is a sample:
$GPGLL,4231.4609,N,08312.4476,W,040854,A
$GPGGA,040854,4231.4609,N,08312.4476,W,2,5,2.03,214,M,,,999,0
$GPGSA,A,3,,16,,25,,13,3,,19,,,,5.21,2.03,4.79
$GPGSV,3,1,11,6,20,45,29,16,31,58,33,8,10,298,,25,67,318,34
$GPGSV,3,2,11,23,44,190,,13,62,258,39,3,63,98,39,7,49,308,
$GPGSV,3,3,11,19,51,155,46,27,39,306,33,138,35,214,27
$GPGLL,4231.4609,N,08312.4478,W,040856,A
$GPGGA,040856,4231.4609,N,08312.4478,W,2,5,2.03,216,M,,,999,0
$GPGSA,A,3,,16,,25,,13,3,,19,,,,5.21,2.03,4.79
$GPGSV,3,1,11,6,20,45,30,16,31,58,34,8,10,298,,25,67,318,34
$GPGSV,3,2,11,23,44,190,,13,62,258,39,3,63,98,39,7,49,308,
$GPGSV,3,3,11,19,51,155,46,27,39,306,34,138,35,214,27
$GPGLL,4231.4607,N,08312.4476,W,040858,A
Jefecinco posted 04-14-2008 09:29 AM ET (US)
Jim,
Do you think a comparison of the Lowrance to the Raymarine A60 is possible given the testing you have done so far?
Comparison testing of marine electronics seems to be very difficult to find. I, along with most I suspect, am unable to make a judgement based upon the specifications provided by the manufacturers. Your explanations on VHF radios makes that task easier but as to GPS or fish finders I'm in the dark. About all I can do is compare the in-store performance using emulator mode.
Butch
jimh posted 04-15-2008 08:50 AM ET (US)
Butch--You've asked a good question. I don't really know which device I would prefer. Each has its own advantages. Here is a very quick summary:
A60 Advantages
--soft key user interface. I think this will make operation of the device somewhat simpler and require fewer keystrokes
--digital SONAR. This should give better resolution to the echograms.
--meta-data companion files to screen captures.
--rugged construction. The Raymarine device is larger and everything seems a bit more heavy-duty.
LMS-520c Advantages
--LGC-3000 receiver has WAAS. However, this receiver does not seem to be quite as sensitive as the Raymarine RS12, which may diminish the advantage. Outside of North America, the advantage goes to Raymarine.
--NMEA-2000 networking. This is a double-edged sword, however, because if you don't have or don't plan to expand the network, it just adds complexity to the installation.
--compact size. The SONAR is built into the display, and this may make the installation easier on a small open boat.
--SONAR log recording. The Lowrance recorder is a very impressive feature, but it is only available for play back at the moment with the Windows operating system.
--higher resolution screen. The 480 x 480 screen, although slightly smaller on the diagonal than the Raymarine, has higher resolution, which produces a very detailed image
Because I only tested these units on the bench, I did not get any real experience in using them in actual application. There may be other considerations which I have not noticed or explored. For example, management of way way points or other user-entered data might be significantly better on one device compared to the other. Some devices allow for pre-planning of routes and uploading of the data. I did not explore those options.
Jefecinco posted 04-15-2008 09:41 AM ET (US)
Jim,
Good points, thank you.
Cost is another factor to consider, IMO. The Raymarine digital sounder is reputedly a very nice feature. I believe it requires the addition of a digital sounder and transducer.
The Lowrance includes the sounder but as you point out it is not digital. However, I believe the yellow ethernet port allows athe addition of Lowrance's version of a digital sounder which must also be purchased. The standard 50/200 Skimmer transducer can be used with the optional digital sounder. Digital sounder performance with the Lowrance unit is also reputedly good but it is new and the jury remains out.
My older Lowrance does not do DCS as well as the new ones. Do you know if the 520C displays DCS data as well as the A60.
I agree that the Lowrance displays are generally very good for the cost.
Butch
jimh posted 04-15-2008 01:34 PM ET (US)
The Raymarine A60 includes the digital sounder in the package at the $999 MAP price.
jimh posted 04-16-2008 12:07 AM ET (US)
Butch--I am also curious to know if the Lowrance LMS-520c responds to NMEA input which contains the datagrams related to Digital Selective Calling (DSC). There are two datagrams in particular:
DSC Digital Selective Calling Information
DSE Digital Selective Calling Information Extended
ASIDE: Unfortunately, the precise details about these datagrams are not publicly well known because they are locked up in the National Marine Electrical Association (NMEA) standards, which are protected by copyright, and are, to the best of my knowledge, not available anywhere except by purchasing them from NMEA for quite a pretty penny.
The general understanding of the DSC and DSE datagrams is that they contain information about the location of a remote vessel which has been transmitted via a DSC radio. The initial DSC position reporting only provided for giving the position with an accuracy of about one tenth of a degree of latitude or longitude, which would be roughly about a mile accuracy. While this sort of accuracy might be useful for giving a position in the middle of the ocean, it did not take advantage of the accuracy of position generally available to mariners with a Global Positioning System receiver (GPSr). To expand the accuracy, the DSE datagram was added. This datagram gives extended data about the remote vessel location, giving a much more accurate position report.
As I mentioned (elsewhere), it would be great if manufacturers of electronic display devices which can accept NEMA datagrams would explicitly mention which of those datagrams can be interpreted and displayed. In the case of Lowrance, in their current documentation it is not clear how the LMS-520c will react to input of the DSC and DSE datagrams.
My suspicion is that there will be some more information coming on this, as Lowrance has begun to promote a feature they call Track-Your-Buddy.

quote:
Exclusive "Track-Your-Buddy" feature connects DSC position polling to Lowrance LCX, LMS and GlobalMap® units via NMEA 2000® to show the location of up to three boating friends on the GPS chart display
It would also be nice if manufacturers used the generic name for these features, which in this case would be just DSC remote position display, instead of their own names. I do have to give Lowrance credit for moving toward use of NMEA-2000 networking as the term for what they used to call "Lowrance-NET".
jimh posted 04-17-2008 09:39 PM ET (US)
When Lowrance says that their "Track your buddy" feature is an exclusive, they probably meant to enhance its value, but for me their advertising copy does just exactly the opposite. I really do not want to get involved with the "Track your buddy" feature at all if it really is something exclusive to Lowrance. What "exclusive" tells me is that it excludes all of my other boating friends who don't have the exact same Lowrance equipment. I want to invest in equipment that operates according to recognized standards and protocols. It would be far smarter for Lowrance to inform me that their new VHF Marine Band radio can provide the NMEA datagrams DSC and DSE via NMEA-2000 networking or NMEA-0183 serial connection, and that their multi-function display can accept the DSC and DSE datagrams an display the position of the remote vessel on a chart display.
If Lowrance told me that, then I would be certain that I'd could invest in their equipment and have it interoperate with other boats that have equipment that was in compliance with the standards of NMEA and SOLAS.

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Author	Topic: Lowrance 520c
jimh	posted 04-10-2008 11:14 PM ET (US) I just finished a bench test of the Lowrance LMS-520c, which is a moderately priced combination instrument containing a 5-inch color display, a GPSr, and a SONAR: Lowrance 500 Series GPSr, Electronic Display, and SONAR http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/L500.html Use this thread for any follow up question or comment.
jimh	posted 04-11-2008 09:26 AM ET (US) On the back of the LMS-520c (as well as on most of the other new models from Lowrance) there is a yellow connector marked ENET or ethernet. There is not much information in the manual about this connector, but my general understanding is that Lowrance intends it for linking to other Lowrance devices to permit data exchange at a much faster rate than could occur on the NMEA-2000 network. Lowrance makes a new digital echo sounder, the Lowrance Broadband Sounder or LBS-1, which is housed in a separate enclosure, a so-called black-box sounder. The LBS-1 connects to a display device using the ENET connector. The display of the LMS-520c is then used to see the echograms from the LBS-1. I think you can also link two self-contained devices that have displays, and perhaps view the SONAR from another device this way. While poking around the LMS-520c controls, I was surprised to see an IP address associated with the ENET port. It appears that Lowrance has IP networking capability via the ENET port. It would be interesting to connect a Lowrance device with ENET to a local area network and see what common protocols, if any, are supported. It would be much simpler to interface a complex device like a LMS-520c to a computer if the interconnection were via a standard unshielded twisted pair (UTP) ethernet 10-MHz network and IP network protocols were used. The LBS-1 uses the IP address of 169.254.1.11 The manual for the LMS-520c makes reference to the ENET connector as "Network socket" and describes it as a "future enhancement."
phatwhaler	posted 04-11-2008 10:23 AM ET (US) Maybe the ENET jack is for hooking up a radar, or connecting a fly-bridge display.
jimh	posted 04-11-2008 02:09 PM ET (US) The documentation is a bit sparse on these new developments. This is a case where the product has gotten ahead of the published manuals. As I said, Lowrance intends the ENET for linking to other Lowrance devices to permit data exchange at a much faster rate than could occur on the NMEA-2000 network. This explains the IP-addressing in the Lowrance ENET: From http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3330.txt quote: 169.254.0.0/16 - This is the "link local" block. It is allocated for communication between hosts on a single link. Hosts obtain these addresses by auto-configuration, such as when a DHCP server may not be found.
jmorgan40	posted 04-13-2008 08:43 AM ET (US) Jim, I suggest you look at the 527 if that is the direction you are heading. For about $50 more it has a much more powerful sonar. Make a huge difference marking structure and fish. Talk to Kevin (minitauk), I believe he has the same unit. Joe
jimh	posted 04-13-2008 09:03 AM ET (US) LOWRANCE has provided a resource for boater with a computer that runs the Windows operating system which allows a terrific emulation program to be run. The emulation provides a chance to test drive the device. A mouse click replaces a button push. The emulation is really quite amazing. If you run the emulation and navigate to the menu choice which gives information about the software version, the software version number is given, along with the target. On the emulation software the target is Windows! On lowrance.com there is a whole directory of software emulators for their products: http://www.lowrance.com/en/Downloads/Product-Emulators/
jimh	posted 04-13-2008 06:29 PM ET (US) Since I did not have any other NMEA-2000 devices on the bench to connect to the LMS-520c, I was only able to test its NMEA-0183 connection. To that end I used my Macintosh Laptop and its add-on serial port provided by a Keyspan High-speed USB serial port adaptor. Interfacing the LMS-520c to the Macintosh was straightforward. The NMEA-0183 port is provided on a pigtail from the POWER connector. There are only four wires in the DATA cable: Lowrance NMEA pigtail LMS-520C Rx = ORANGE Tx = YELLOW Common = Shield Not used = BLUE On the Keyspan serial port there is a familiar 9-pin plug (i.e., pins, not sockets) with more or less the standard pin arrangement: Keyspan Serial Port Pin Out DB-9 Signal Type 1 DCD Input 2 RxDATA Input 3 TxDATA Output 4 DTR Output 5 Ground Ground 6 DSR Input 7 RTS Output 8 CTS Input 9 RI Input So connection should be LMS-520c to Keyspan Rx ORANGE to TxDATA Pin 3 Tx YELLOW to RxDATA Pin 2 SHIELD to GROUND Pin 5 I wired up a 9-pin socket on the end of the Lowrance DATA cable with the connections above and gave it a try. Initially nothing much was happening. I had to configure the Lowrance LMS-520c to activate the serial port and send the correct NMEA sentences. After a few seconds--Success! The Lowrance GPS started talking to my Macintosh. Here is a sample: $GPGLL,4231.4609,N,08312.4476,W,040854,A $GPGGA,040854,4231.4609,N,08312.4476,W,2,5,2.03,214,M,,,999,0 $GPGSA,A,3,,16,,25,,13,3,,19,,,,5.21,2.03,4.79 $GPGSV,3,1,11,6,20,45,29,16,31,58,33,8,10,298,,25,67,318,34 $GPGSV,3,2,11,23,44,190,,13,62,258,39,3,63,98,39,7,49,308, $GPGSV,3,3,11,19,51,155,46,27,39,306,33,138,35,214,27 $GPGLL,4231.4609,N,08312.4478,W,040856,A $GPGGA,040856,4231.4609,N,08312.4478,W,2,5,2.03,216,M,,,999,0 $GPGSA,A,3,,16,,25,,13,3,,19,,,,5.21,2.03,4.79 $GPGSV,3,1,11,6,20,45,30,16,31,58,34,8,10,298,,25,67,318,34 $GPGSV,3,2,11,23,44,190,,13,62,258,39,3,63,98,39,7,49,308, $GPGSV,3,3,11,19,51,155,46,27,39,306,34,138,35,214,27 $GPGLL,4231.4607,N,08312.4476,W,040858,A
Jefecinco	posted 04-14-2008 09:29 AM ET (US) Jim, Do you think a comparison of the Lowrance to the Raymarine A60 is possible given the testing you have done so far? Comparison testing of marine electronics seems to be very difficult to find. I, along with most I suspect, am unable to make a judgement based upon the specifications provided by the manufacturers. Your explanations on VHF radios makes that task easier but as to GPS or fish finders I'm in the dark. About all I can do is compare the in-store performance using emulator mode. Butch
jimh	posted 04-15-2008 08:50 AM ET (US) Butch--You've asked a good question. I don't really know which device I would prefer. Each has its own advantages. Here is a very quick summary: A60 Advantages --soft key user interface. I think this will make operation of the device somewhat simpler and require fewer keystrokes --digital SONAR. This should give better resolution to the echograms. --meta-data companion files to screen captures. --rugged construction. The Raymarine device is larger and everything seems a bit more heavy-duty. LMS-520c Advantages --LGC-3000 receiver has WAAS. However, this receiver does not seem to be quite as sensitive as the Raymarine RS12, which may diminish the advantage. Outside of North America, the advantage goes to Raymarine. --NMEA-2000 networking. This is a double-edged sword, however, because if you don't have or don't plan to expand the network, it just adds complexity to the installation. --compact size. The SONAR is built into the display, and this may make the installation easier on a small open boat. --SONAR log recording. The Lowrance recorder is a very impressive feature, but it is only available for play back at the moment with the Windows operating system. --higher resolution screen. The 480 x 480 screen, although slightly smaller on the diagonal than the Raymarine, has higher resolution, which produces a very detailed image Because I only tested these units on the bench, I did not get any real experience in using them in actual application. There may be other considerations which I have not noticed or explored. For example, management of way way points or other user-entered data might be significantly better on one device compared to the other. Some devices allow for pre-planning of routes and uploading of the data. I did not explore those options.
Jefecinco	posted 04-15-2008 09:41 AM ET (US) Jim, Good points, thank you. Cost is another factor to consider, IMO. The Raymarine digital sounder is reputedly a very nice feature. I believe it requires the addition of a digital sounder and transducer. The Lowrance includes the sounder but as you point out it is not digital. However, I believe the yellow ethernet port allows athe addition of Lowrance's version of a digital sounder which must also be purchased. The standard 50/200 Skimmer transducer can be used with the optional digital sounder. Digital sounder performance with the Lowrance unit is also reputedly good but it is new and the jury remains out. My older Lowrance does not do DCS as well as the new ones. Do you know if the 520C displays DCS data as well as the A60. I agree that the Lowrance displays are generally very good for the cost. Butch
jimh	posted 04-15-2008 01:34 PM ET (US) The Raymarine A60 includes the digital sounder in the package at the $999 MAP price.
jimh	posted 04-16-2008 12:07 AM ET (US) Butch--I am also curious to know if the Lowrance LMS-520c responds to NMEA input which contains the datagrams related to Digital Selective Calling (DSC). There are two datagrams in particular: DSC Digital Selective Calling Information DSE Digital Selective Calling Information Extended ASIDE: Unfortunately, the precise details about these datagrams are not publicly well known because they are locked up in the National Marine Electrical Association (NMEA) standards, which are protected by copyright, and are, to the best of my knowledge, not available anywhere except by purchasing them from NMEA for quite a pretty penny. The general understanding of the DSC and DSE datagrams is that they contain information about the location of a remote vessel which has been transmitted via a DSC radio. The initial DSC position reporting only provided for giving the position with an accuracy of about one tenth of a degree of latitude or longitude, which would be roughly about a mile accuracy. While this sort of accuracy might be useful for giving a position in the middle of the ocean, it did not take advantage of the accuracy of position generally available to mariners with a Global Positioning System receiver (GPSr). To expand the accuracy, the DSE datagram was added. This datagram gives extended data about the remote vessel location, giving a much more accurate position report. As I mentioned (elsewhere), it would be great if manufacturers of electronic display devices which can accept NEMA datagrams would explicitly mention which of those datagrams can be interpreted and displayed. In the case of Lowrance, in their current documentation it is not clear how the LMS-520c will react to input of the DSC and DSE datagrams. My suspicion is that there will be some more information coming on this, as Lowrance has begun to promote a feature they call Track-Your-Buddy. quote: Exclusive "Track-Your-Buddy" feature connects DSC position polling to Lowrance LCX, LMS and GlobalMap® units via NMEA 2000® to show the location of up to three boating friends on the GPS chart display It would also be nice if manufacturers used the generic name for these features, which in this case would be just DSC remote position display, instead of their own names. I do have to give Lowrance credit for moving toward use of NMEA-2000 networking as the term for what they used to call "Lowrance-NET".
jimh	posted 04-17-2008 09:39 PM ET (US) When Lowrance says that their "Track your buddy" feature is an exclusive, they probably meant to enhance its value, but for me their advertising copy does just exactly the opposite. I really do not want to get involved with the "Track your buddy" feature at all if it really is something exclusive to Lowrance. What "exclusive" tells me is that it excludes all of my other boating friends who don't have the exact same Lowrance equipment. I want to invest in equipment that operates according to recognized standards and protocols. It would be far smarter for Lowrance to inform me that their new VHF Marine Band radio can provide the NMEA datagrams DSC and DSE via NMEA-2000 networking or NMEA-0183 serial connection, and that their multi-function display can accept the DSC and DSE datagrams an display the position of the remote vessel on a chart display. If Lowrance told me that, then I would be certain that I'd could invest in their equipment and have it interoperate with other boats that have equipment that was in compliance with the standards of NMEA and SOLAS.