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Author Topic:   Swist's Swift Exit
swist posted 05-27-2015 05:24 PM ET (US)   Profile for swist  
[Regretably, the original topic of this thread, an insulated [or possibly an insulted] butt-splice with heat-shrink sealing material pre-installed, was soon over whelmed by several sidebars begun by a rather odd response to a suggestion, by me, that the connector under discussion, not yet clearly identified, might be found in illustrations on a website that was selling those connectors. I have preserved this thread and its numerous sidebars as I find the behavior demonstrated here to be astonishing. The thread is closed to additional postings.--jimh]

I am replacing the bilge pump which sits in the sump of [a Boston Whaler 170 MONTAUK] boat. The electrical connections are subject to complete immersion in water--saltwater in my case. The factory connectors appear to be some sort of barrel crimp connector with a sleeve that is sealed on both ends, whether by heat or some kind of compound I'm not sure.

The original connectors lasted the 11 years I have owned the boat where it was primarily moored in salt water, and used the pump to keep the boat dry, so whatever Boston Whaler did, they did it right; it is the pump that failed, not the connectors.

What are these connectors called and what technique is required to make them waterproof? Thanks.

Tom Hemphill posted 05-27-2015 06:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom Hemphill  Send Email to Tom Hemphill     
From your description, it sounds like heat shrink adhesive lined butt connectors were used. To install them all you need is an ordinary terminal crimping tool (available from a hardware or auto parts store) and a source of heat (a heat gun works great). After crimping, applying heat causes the insulating cover to shrink and melt the included adhesive, further sealing the connection.
jimh posted 05-28-2015 07:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Perhaps you are trying to describe the bullet connectors shown here:

http://www.cycleterminal.com/bullet-connectors.html

swist posted 05-28-2015 08:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
I don't know if those motorcycle products make a strong enough statement about being completely impervious to water. And quantity of 10 is $3.35, hmm too cheap?

Also, the plural of Honda is Hondas, not Honda's.

Can't we find a legitimate marine product?

swist posted 05-28-2015 09:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
This looks like it. Agree/disagree?

http://www.amazon.com/Ancor-309125-Electrical-Insulated-Connectors/dp/B000NI3BGE/ref=sr_1_2_m?s=boating-water-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1432817925&sr=1-2

jimh posted 05-28-2015 11:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
SWIST says:

quote:
Also, the plural of Honda is Hondas, not Honda's.

You have lost me. Honda was not mentioned in this thread. Why do you want to talk about spelling? I thought you were interested in electrical connectors.

jimh posted 05-28-2015 11:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I would not call a butt-splice a "connector." Connectors usually are devices that can be connected or disconnected. A butt splice is not a connector in that sense because it is a permanent, one-time use device. Is that what you are trying to replace? You can get them many places. To pay the most for them, go to a ship's store. I'd probaby just twist the conductors together, solder them, and cover the joint with heat shrink.
swist posted 05-29-2015 02:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
Jimh:

This site ceases to be useful.

Connector is VERY common parlance for a device not intended to be disconnected, and surely you understood what I meant from your years with dealing with boat electrical, and probably bilge pumps in particular.

Pointing me to a low-end motorcycle site where they can't spell Hondas is not useful.

Telling me to solder and cover with shrink wrap is not useful as surely you know this is not ideal for water, particularly saltwater, incursion.

Tom Hemphill provided me with the name of the "connector" and I found them online. Thank you Tom.

If you are not going to contribute positively to these threads, then at least let others do so.

jimh posted 06-02-2015 09:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
SWIST--you completely mislead me by asking about a "connector." An insulated butt splice is not commonly called a connector by anyone familiar with electrical wiring. The bullet connections I referred you to are used in many marine applications. The particular vendor site having an orientation to another market for their application does not in any way exclude their use in boats. Look under the cowling of a Yamaha outboard to find bullet connectors in use.

The attitude you express is less than friendly and not welcome.

jimh posted 06-02-2015 09:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
SWIST decides his place here is to instruct me:

quote:
If you are not going to contribute positively to these threads, then at least let others do so.

I suppose you consider your recent posting to be a positive contribution:

quote:
Also, the plural of Honda is Hondas, not Honda's.

How does that represent some sort of cogent contribution to the discussion of electrical wiring and butt splices?

By the way, it would only be natural for me to contribute in a positive manner to an electrical discussion. I try to balance out the negative contributions.

deepwater posted 06-03-2015 02:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for deepwater  Send Email to deepwater     
jimh,,ya cant plz everyone all the time,,im still happy with this site if it makes ya feel better ,,^@^,, hey max
jimh posted 06-03-2015 06:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In the SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL discussion I try to collect and organize information about small boat electrical and electronic topics. I don't expect contributors to SMALL BOAT ELECTRICAL to give advice on how to form the plural of proper nouns, or to give their opinion about the usefulness of the website. SWIST has chosen to do both here. Such information is not part of the realm of information that I am trying to collect and organize. In the process of proclaiming that this site has lost its usefulness, SWIST's contributions are actually creating that problem, that is, they are reducing the usefulness of the information collected here. It is not useful to readers seeking information about small boat electronics to get a lesson from SWIST on how to form the plural of proper nouns, nor it is particularly useful to get his opinion about the website.

It is my observation, after running a forum for more than 15-years and running a website for more than 20-years, that a website that tries to collect information about itself is inherently not very useful. That is why I generally do not try to collect information about the website itself.

The website likes to collect information about boating topics, not about forming the plural of proper nouns. Apparently SWIST believes his information about forming the plural of proper nouns is more useful than my information in pointing to a page containing images and descriptions of electrical connectors he was trying to describe in a narrative manner.

fno posted 06-03-2015 05:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for fno  Send Email to fno     
Jimh, this website is so damn useless that I keep coming back 2 or 3 times a day to see if it is getting worse or better. But I also enjoy reading about electrical connectors.
fishgutz posted 06-03-2015 06:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for fishgutz  Send Email to fishgutz     
I think the manufacturer uses proper terminology.
http://www.ancorproducts.com/en/products/terminals/butt-connectors
Oldslowandugly posted 06-03-2015 11:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Oldslowandugly    
Don't sweat it, it's a full moon. And I feel the adhesive lined connectors are a decent alternative to the laborious real deal. Namely, soldering, sealing, shrink wrapping, sealing, electrical taping, and sealing one last time with liquid neoprene. Do all THAT and you will never have an electrical wiring problem.
jimh posted 06-04-2015 07:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I would not call a butt-splice a "connector." Connectors usually are devices that can be connected or disconnected. A butt splice is not a connector in that sense because it is a permanent, one-time use device.
fishgutz posted 06-04-2015 03:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for fishgutz  Send Email to fishgutz     
jimh: I think Ancor, the world's leading manufacturer of marine grade electrical wire products would know what they're talking about.

Please refer to the links here for easy explanations of what the parts are called:
http://www.ancorproducts.com/en/products/terminals

Parts that connect one wire to another without the ability to disconnect are called CONNECTORS and parts that can be connected and disconnected are called DISCONNECTS or SNAP PLUGS. Anything that is crimped to the end of a wire and connected to something other than another wire is generally called a TERMINAL.

Please point us to a reference that proves what YOU are saying.

swist posted 06-04-2015 05:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
As I stated before, the ONLY reason this Honda plural thing came up at all was because of Jimh's unhelpful reply to my original query.

First directing me to some 2nd rate motorcycle website (and I used the Honda plural to give some indication of the quality of that site).

Then sarcastic commentary, and nitpicking over commonly-understood nomenclature:

"I would not call a butt-splice a "connector." Connectors usually are devices that can be connected or disconnected. A butt splice is not a connector in that sense because it is a permanent, one-time use device. Is that what you are trying to replace? You can get them many places. To pay the most for them, go to a ship's store. I'd probaby just twist the conductors together, solder them, and cover the joint with heat shrink."

It was a simple question, using commonly-understood language. I fail to see what merited the above response.


sail16 posted 06-04-2015 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for sail16  Send Email to sail16     
It is hard to argue with Ancor when it comes to marine connector terminology. I'm with fishgutz.

Also, a quick google search will show about 2.3x the number of results for the term "butt connector" vs. "butt splice".

jimh, I appreciate your curation but I believe you've gone too far here. Real men admit when they are wrong.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 09:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I would not call a butt-splice a "connector." Connectors usually are devices that can be connected or disconnected. A butt splice is not a connector in that sense because it is a permanent, one-time use device.

There is a very long thread asking for advice about connectors to use with navigation lamps. In that lengthy thread, no one suggested using a butt-splice. If a butt-splice were considered by most readers to be "a connector", you would have expected that after dozens of suggestions for a connector for a navigation lamp, someone would have suggested a butt-splice. It would be the least expensive and smallest connector. Yet, no one did that. That is because no one understood that a "connector" could be something that was a one-time, permanent wiring device. Everyone one understood that when a recommendation was sought for "a connector" the butt-splice crimp-on device was not included in the realm of connectors.

Sorry, but if you ask me any questions about "connectors", I will not ever suggest that a crimp-on butt-splice is a connector. It is a permanent splice.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 09:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Swist replies:

quote:
As I stated before, the ONLY reason this Honda plural thing came up at all was because of Jimh's unhelpful reply to my original query.

You are being completely disingenuous. My reply was only "unhelpful" because it did not identify the device you were seeking, but it certainly was helpful in eliminating a type of connector.

Your comment about a misspelled word on that website was completely off-topic. The spelling of Honda in the plural was not in anyway related to or important in the process of identifying the type of connector you were trying to describe. Your comment seemed to me to be completely off-topic and of no help at all in identifying the connector you were seeking. Yet, you accuse me of offering unhelpful advice--really? That is rather inconsistent.

Swist insists that it is not helpful for me to point to a website having many images of connectors that fit his vague description--"The factory connectors appear to be some sort of barrel crimp connector with a sleeve"--but it is supposed to be helpful for Swist to comment on spelling--"the plural of Honda is Hondas, not Honda's." Swift made no reference in his initial comment that he was commenting about the spelling of a word on another website. The words "Honda" or "Honda's" or "Hondas" were never part of this discussion until Swift introduced them. And that is supposed to be more "helpful" than discussing electrical connectors.

I am at a loss to understand Swift's line of thinking that has lead him to declare that this website is no longer useful. He gives a rather vague description of a wiring device, calls it a connector, then decides that the entire website has lost its usefulness because a response suggested an actual connector that fit his description quite nicely. This astonishes me. Swist, do you really want to insist this website is no longer useful on the basis of one reply? I must again disagree with you. I don't refer to butt-splices as connectors, and I don't think this website is no longer useful.

fishgutz posted 06-05-2015 10:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for fishgutz  Send Email to fishgutz     
swist: here you go.
Heat shrink butt connectors: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ ancor-marine--heat-shrink-butt-connectors--P009_275_004_003
Or you can use these: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ ancor-marine--nylon-single-crimp-butt-connectors--P009_275_004_002
AND add these: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ ancor-marine--adhesive-lined-heat-shrink-tubing-alt--P009_275_003_003
Or use the heat shrink butt connectors and add more heat shrink tubing for double protection.
This might be handy, too: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/ west-marine--liquid-electrical-tape--544171
Good luck.
swist posted 06-05-2015 11:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
Thanks to all who responded with useful information to a query worded as accurately as possible. Had I known the exact name of the part, I wouldn't have had to ask, would I?

Thanks to all who have made this site an enjoyable part standard part of my boating experience.

I'm sure I will see many of you on the other boating and Whaler sites.

Jim
Westport Island, Maine
jimswist@gmail.com

swist posted 06-05-2015 11:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for swist    
Hmm, can't find the "unsubscribe" button. Jim H, if you could do me the courtesy of taking care of it. I shan't bother you further. Best wishes for all you do in boating and everything else in your life.
jimh posted 06-05-2015 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Swist--you have no subscription. All you need to do to stop making use of the 400,000-articles available on this website is to stop visiting it. I am afraid I cannot offer you some special deal that will help you stop visiting.

It was, until this recent and most unpleasant outburst from you where you declared this website to no longer be useful, my pleasure to operate this website and provide its resources to you free of charge for 20 years.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 11:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
On the original topic of replacing a sump pump, I am astonished that the original installation by Boston Whaler has such a bad electrical practice in that it has placed a splice in the conductors at a location which causes them to be completely immersed in water. This is a horrible practice, and I cannot endorse it.

Electrical pumps designed to be used in a submerged location on a boat sump are available with electrical leads that are long enough to permit the splice of the leads to the electrical circuit operating the pump to be made far above any level that water might rise. The best practice in replacement of this original pump is to choose a replacement pump with longer electrical leads. It is often an option when purchasing an electrical sump or bilge pump to get the pump with long electrical leads attached to it. These leads can be three-feet long or longer. A vertical rise from the pump of three feet ought to be sufficient to place the electrical splice to the boat's pump circuit far above the level that water could rise to, unless the boat has sunk to its gunwales.

If the present installation has placed the connections close to the pump and in an area that can be submerged, that mistake should be corrected with a replacement pump.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 11:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If a butt-splice qualifies as a "connector" then I guess it would have been more helpful if I suggested this "connector" to Swist:

An electrical "connector":

--save the threaded caps from two tubes of tooth paste which have an inside diameter of about 3/16-inch;

--wash the caps carefully in hot water to remove any trace of toothpaste residue;

--strip the two conductors of their insulation for about 0.75-inch;

--twist the two conductors together

--thread on to the connected conductors a toothpaste cap; tighten moderately;

--obtain a source of silicon sealant such as the common electrical product RTV silicon;

--instill into the bottom of the tooth paste caps sufficient RTV or suitable sealant to completely seal the connection; let the RTV cover the bare conductors and about 3/8-inch of the wire insulation

--wait a day or two for the RTV to dry thoroughly.

According to the new standard suggested in this discussion, we have a waterproof electrical "connector."

I don't believe that what I have described above qualifies as an electrical connector by my own definition, but it is closer than the one-time use crimp butt-splice; the home-made wire nut connector could be disconnected and possibly reused.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 12:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I find this completely ironic:

Swist points to a website as a means of illustrating the type of connector he wants to buy. On that website there is a misspelling. If I operated by the same logic as Swist, I should have chastised him for being unhelpful and offered a correction to the spelling of the word found on the website he pointed to.

This is another complete inconsistency in Swist's behavior here. If I give a pointer to a website which contains a misspelled word, I am being unhelpful and it renders the entire website as being no longer useful. Yet, Swist does the exact same thing he has accused me. How ironic.

Using Swist's own reasoning, I must declare that his replies were unhelpful, that I found them not useful, and the website he mentions is "2nd rate." Note that "2nd rate" is itself a misspeliing, and in this case, done by Swift himself. This is again ironic, because Swift sets a standard for websites presented by others to which he cannot adhere with his own writing.

P.S. The misspelling was exactly the same mistake pointed out by Swist himself: the inappropriate use of an apostrophe in forming a plural. This makes it doubly ironic:

--Swist points to a website with a spelling error, and

--the spelling error is precisely the same error he has found so objectionable.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 01:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
SAIL16, only tangentally on the topic of electrical connectors, directs to me the following comment:

quote:
Real men admit when they are wrong.

I am glad to recite the following errors I made in this discussions:

--I erred when I failed to realize that Swist lacked familiarity with the extremely common term "butt-splice";

--I erred when I made an incorrect guess at what connect connector Swist was trying to describe;

--I erred when I did not immediately recognize that Swist was changing the topic of discussion to begin a lesson on how to form the plurals of proper nouns because somewhere, if you scrolled far down the long page of connectors and their illustrations that I referenced as a way to assist Swist in identifying the connector, there was a word, a proper noun, and the form used to create a plural of that proper noun, as means to refer to the products of that company, not the company itself, was formed in a manner or style that Swist objected to.

I cannot admit that I have made an error when I said:

quote:
An insulated butt splice is not commonly called a connector by anyone familiar with electrical wiring. The bullet connections I referred you to are used in many marine applications. The particular vendor site having an orientation to another market for their application does not in any way exclude their use in boats. Look under the cowling of a Yamaha outboard to find bullet connectors in use.

I expressed my beliefs and my observations. Let's review them:

--An insulated butt splice is not commonly called a connector by anyone familiar with electrical wiring." I believe this. I have never had a colleague or someone well-versed in electrical wiring and electrical connections refer to a butt-splice by any name other than a butt-splice. Perhaps my exposure is limited and not as worldly as Swist's.

--"The bullet connections I referred you to are used in many marine applications." This is true. I have seen the bullet connectors used in outboard engines made by several manufactures, but particularly in Yamaha engines. I have seen them used in the power cords of electronic devices made by ICOM and others.

--"The particular vendor site having an orientation to another market for their application does not in any way exclude their use in boats." This just seems completely self-evident. Curiously, Swist puts forward a notion that he can only be satisfied with a connector sold exclusively for marine applications, but this is completely contradicted by the actual connector. Insulated butt-splices with heat-shrink sealing are sold everywhere, and sold for many applications.

--"Look under the cowling of a Yamaha outboard to find bullet connectors in use." This is true, at least for the Yamaha outboard engines I have owned.

I cannot "admit" I "was wrong" about any of this. The only possible area of dispute may be the use of the word "connector" as being a descriptor of any means by which two electrical conductors can be joined. As I pointed out above, such a broad interpretation of "connector" leads to some rather unusual choices of "connectors" available. I think of a connector as a device incorporating a connector body, a locking mechanism, a mounting mechanism (either to a cable or a bulkhead) and various electrical contacts or terminals. Connectors can be mated and unmated. This is my point of view. I am not particularly persuaded to change it. Wikipedia seems to agree with me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Electrical_connector#Types_of_electrical_connectors

jimh posted 06-05-2015 01:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
ASIDE:

One important basis for Swift's declaration that my responses were unhelpful and the site was now useless was his citation of what be believed to be an error in the use of an apostrophe to form a plural. Swift prefers that when referring to a lot of vehicles made by Honda, the proper form is "Hondas" and not "Honda's."

The use of apostrophes to form plurals is not really a matter of hard and fast rules, but more a case of style. For many years, apostrophes were used to form plurals. It was once common to see writing like this:

quote:
In the 1920's there was a spirit of optimism in America.

Currently, many respected style guides suggest that one ought to write:

quote:
In the 1920s there was a spirit of optimism in American.

In the case that Swift has made into a cause celebre, the word Honda is used as a metonymy. The writer was making a figure of speech. He used the brand name HONDA to refer to motorcycle products made by that company. HONDA is a proper noun. The use of proper nouns in metonymy is the topic of an interesting paper. For those who are particularly interested in this fascinating sidebar topic introduced by Swist, I recommend the follow:

http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/markert/Papers/metaphorbook2006.pdf

I have not carefully read the article for misspellings; if someone finds an error in spelling or grammar in that article they must hold me harmless.

jimh posted 06-05-2015 04:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Using a GOOGLE Search, SAIL 16 asserts:

quote:
Also, a quick google search will show about 2.3x the number of results for the term "butt connector" vs. "butt splice".

Try this: use GOOGLE search for images. Compare the results for

"butt splice" (my term)
https://www.google.com/search?q=butt+splice&biw=1063&bih=863& source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ogNyVfW8C8f1oASCrYPQBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

and for

"barrel crimp connector" (Swist's term)
https://www.google.com/search?q=butt+splice&biw=1063&bih=863& source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ogNyVfW8C8f1oASCrYPQBw& ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=barrel+crimp+connector

Compare which search terms results are closer to what we finally discovered as the connector being sought. Note one of the first results in the search for "barrel crimp connector" is the male portion of a bullet connector--precisely what I pointed to in my reply to Swist.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cycleterminal. com%2Fwpimages%2Fbullet-terminal.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. cycleterminal.com%2Fbullet-connectors.html&docid=o601m7PP0__3BM& tbnid=rWl4Upx5qyTjZM%3A&w=500&h=362&ei=pwRyVZrxEIWlyQTw0YO4Aw& ved=0CAIQxiAwAA&iact=c

I don't see anything in these GOOGLE search results that persuade me to change my opinion about "butt splices" and "barrel crimp connectors."

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