Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
|Author||Topic: Neo-Classic Forum|
posted 05-28-2000 01:16 PM ET (US)
Here is a separate forum just for discussion of the newer, Neo-Classic boats.
"What's a 'Neo-CLassic' Whaler?"
Strictly speaking, a Neo-Classic would be a boat that marks the reappearance of certain classic styles or elements. But I think that definition might be too strict, so let's just say that a "Neo-Classic" Boston Whaler is any boat made after c.1990.
I'm picking 1990 because it is an epochal date in Boston Whaler history, marking pretty much the end of the Fisher-Dougherty hull designs.
Maybe I should call it "Post-Classic"?
Let's see what people have to say...
posted 05-29-2000 10:52 PM ET (US)
Jim, great forum, I`m going to have fun with this one! I`ll be nice! Regards-JACK.
posted 05-31-2000 05:06 PM ET (US)
I'd vote for "post classic", rather then get too hung up on wordsmithing...
But so much of what we talk / message about is not classic / post-classic dependant.
Best - Don
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-15-2001 02:50 PM ET (US)
I just thought I'd bring this back up as there seems to be some confusion about what to post in the Post-Classic section.
posted 11-15-2001 05:51 PM ET (US)
Shouldn't a Classic Whaler really be defined as boat designed during the Fisher-Dougherty era, rather than whether it was made before or after 1990?
Certainly some of the classic designs were made into the 1990's and some can still be purchased through the Commercial Products Division.
I think Post-Classic is a better classification than Neo-Classic. After all, it's too early to determine whether the newer Whalers, which look like just about every other white plastic boat on the water, will ever develop in the minds of their users the type of emotional attachment that people have for the Classic Whalers. Only time will tell.
posted 11-15-2001 06:40 PM ET (US)
The description says "Post-Classic...those boats made after 1990." It does not say that all boats made after 1990 are Post-Classic, but all Post-Classic boats are made after 1990.
Post-Classic implies designed and made after 1990.
Made after 1990 does not imply Post-Classic.
I remember they used to teach SET THEORY to us in the fifth grade, back in 1961...
The set of boats that are POST CLASSIC contains boats that are all made after 1990.
The set of boats that are made after 1990 contains all the POST CLASSIC boats.
But not ALL BOATS in the SET of boats made after 1990 are POST CLASSIC.
I don't think they teach SET THEORY to fifth graders any more. Instead they teach them to work in groups and accept a group grade for their collective work instead of their individual work. They do this so when they get jobs in the laminating shop at a SEA RAY plant they will feel good about themselves...
posted 11-15-2001 08:07 PM ET (US)
That is an interesting opinion, “the newer Whalers, which look like just about every other white plastic boat on the water,”
I feel quite differently about that. After going to a number of Boat Shows this year from Seattle to Annapolis, I was able to recognize the new Boston Whalers from all the other boat displayed at the show as well as other makes. They are distinct with the reverse chine on the bow, the broad bow, bow and side rails, the lines of the side of the hull and the different look of the construction. Of course you might not be able to tell a Ford from a Chevy also.
As for the phrase “neo” Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (tenth edition) defines it as –
Maybe the more precise term might have been “Neo-Whaler”, which would denote the change in the company even while the classic and the new hull designs are still manufactured.
With all the above put aside, I believe that the description for the forum where it states it is for those whalers made after 1990 is fairly clear regardless if it is titled Post or Neo.
The process of evolution allows for change in nature or in business, in nature the change could be in a spices to better adapt to the physical environment for the best change at survival, and in business the change can be in design, product or service, again for economic survival. For both the possibility extinction would be the price to pay to be unable to change.
1) Set – boat,
Even in sets a Whaler is a Whaler, including the Rage, Mischief, Dauntless, Montauk, Outrage etc. etc. etc.
What is this thread for? To eliminate anything that is not “Classic” or to accept all Whaler models, years, and owners as part of the Whaler family.
posted 11-15-2001 08:32 PM ET (US)
Before ther is any chance of things getting out of hand here, please look at the posted thread above.
Also it occured to me that some Whaler spices I used are extinct, Rag and Mishcief.
posted 11-15-2001 09:17 PM ET (US)
Lots of good comments on this subject. I can't find any arguments with any of them, as we all have our own toughts about Whaler ownership. I think jimh has done and is doing a tremendous job with this web site.
As a neo-classic Montauk owner, which I consider a classic as many do, I feel comfortable posting on all of the forums. What about the guy that owns a Dauntles or Ventura? To me they seem to be pushed out onto the backporch. This is Whaler's future, why not embrace the new model into the Whaler "classic" family and make them welcome.
Lets loosen up and make all Whaler owners welcome and and treat the new models with the same respect that any boat with a Whaler decal deserves, we all bought the boat because it was a Whaler which in most cases has been improved over the years. Some may not like the new designs, some do. They are still Whalers and deserve to be recognized as such.
I would be happy to see the neo-classic forum eliminated and all Whaler owners come together as one.
posted 11-15-2001 10:28 PM ET (US)
As "Post-Classic" owner, I cannot say that I feel particularly left out of the general discourse. Whaler did not make what I currently require in a boat during the "Classic" era. I have a 26 Outrage that has certain amenities that were simply unavailable back then. It is a larger, hardcore fishing boat that also appeals to family life. Believe it or not, the head counts -- I was moving down from a largish 33 footer. Also, the water never, never gets above 62 degrees around Boston. A dry boat --the Outrage is unbelievably dry -- is a good thing. A healthy freeboard is nice too, I don't know how many standing tide rips y'all have around where you live.
How do I feel about Classics? I love them. Particularly the Montauks built in Mass. Lots of beautiful teak and a finish to die for (and my old 13...). But could (or would) I take it out comfortably with my family in some of the foul weather that I typically enjoy? No, not really. If this is a discussion of what it is to be a "true" Whaler owner or not, let me illustrate with the following:
Just a few weeks ago, during the odd spell that both motors were actually running (I just ignored the check engine warning), I had her out in 35 knots of wind in about 45 degree weather. As I came on the plane heading out by Logan airport, a Coast Guard Whaler decked out with that lovely .50 cal in the bow and two 7.62s in the stern came up alongside me about 50 feet to my starboard. Together we cruised out of the harbor at about 35 mph in some serious chop. They were decked out in waterproof dark grey and flak jacket PFDs and my two boys and I had weatherproofs and orange Mustang PFDs on -- all of us were getting drenched. They were looking at us (through goggles)like "look at these nuts" and we were just whooping it up, but the Coasties held station with us for a good while, perhaps a mile or more. Dark grey skies, sporadic rain, howling wind, two large Whalers, one dark grey with machine guns and the other white with black t-top and outriggers pelting out the harbor side by side, NOTHING else out there -- a Whaler moment, for ALL involved. Did it matter that mine was new ... not at all. Could I have even done that in a Classic ... maybe, depending on the stretch of the meaning of "Classic." But was it a Whaler moment? Absolutely. No stinkin' Gradys out there then!! Are Whaler folks basically the same, irrespective of their year of ownership? I think so. Do the similarities between us far outweigh the differences? I think so.
So glory in the differences. Admire each other's boats. Yes, I think that a Montauk owner or vintage Outrage owner can suck it up and say "nice boat" if it is. Bob Doherty did not design my boat. It was built in Florida. It has a swamped capacity of 7500 pounds. It is tough as nails. It IS a Whaler. And when my boys get old enough, I'll find a nice, clean 13 footer and slap a reliable new motor on it for them and make then do chores for gas money, or they can sell the fish they'll catch door to door like I did.
If I have to write about my boat in this area, fine. I hope that other "Post Classic" owners will let me know about how they feel about their boats. I want to know. And I'll read about everyone else's boats wherever. If someone feels that I have a white plastic boat, cool. You don't have to read about my boat. I know better. I own a Whaler.
posted 11-15-2001 10:47 PM ET (US)
And before anyone gets too bent out of shape -- yeah, an Outrage 27 might have worked, I think the hull is the business -- but I don't really like the Whalerdrive, I like the integrated transom on mine. I like the proper marine head in the center console, the sink there too. I don't like cuddies -- my brother-in-law has a Strike with a cuddy, it stays wet, stinky and a vault for all sorts of garbage that nobody knows what to do with. I like being able to access the entire boat. I like the livewell, I like the fish boxes, I like the ... well you get the picture.
I do lust after some of the commercial division boats....
posted 11-15-2001 11:05 PM ET (US)
Well, here we go again. I do have to agree with Dick's assessment that the owners of "post-classic" Whalers are pushed onto "the backporch" of the Classic Whaler forum. We've discussed this numerous times in the past...new Whalers (and their owners) are treated a lot like Rodney Dangerfield..."we don't get no respect". It's gotten to the point for me that I rarely post on the forum anymore. I read some of the ever-present snide comments and just grit my teeth to myself. It's taken a lot of the enjoyment out of it...and I don't feel that my participation is particularly welcome.
As Bear pointed out...and I've said in the past...we don't feel like we bought some look-alike, inferior piece of #%$...we bought Whalers...one of the best-made brands available...and one with a great heritage.
It's hard to enjoy that warm, fuzzy sense of Whaler community when it's obvious that some of you feel that we are foolish, ignorant dupes (or else just plain stupid) for being hoodwinked into buying such an inferior product as a new Whaler. Obviously, if we were as smart as the rest of you, we would recognize the inherent goodness of the Classic Whaler and dump our "Sea-Ray Laguna look-alike Whalers built by the bowling company".
It's great to love your Classic toy...whatever it is. I've owned a lot of classic cars over the years and one of my current pride and joys is a classic 1966 Airstream trailer...but it doesn't mean you have to rain on other peoples' parades. Remember, they probably love their toy as much as you love yours.
I've spent a lot of time on The Hull Truth forum in the last couple of months. There is a lot of good information there and a lot of good people. Most of the folks there don't have a lot of love for Whalers (except for those of you who participate in both forums)...and they are certainly entitled to their opinions. However, one perception there seems pretty universally held...that participants in the Classic Whaler forum are a bunch of arrogant, hostile snobs who won't tolerate "foolish" questions. I don't happen to agree with that view...but I can sure see how someone who only came here casually could form that opinion! This can be a very harsh crowd.
Jim H...you've done a great job with this forum...and of course, it's yours and you can do whatever you like with it. But, in my opinion, if you want it to continue to flourish and expand, I think you need to defuse the "old vs. new" debate once and for all. I can't speak for anyone else...but I don't see a lot of future in participating in such a "closed-loop" society.
I guess I had a lot of pent-up feelings to get off my chest...sorry if I offended anyone, but that's the way I see it.
posted 11-15-2001 11:54 PM ET (US)
Truth be told...
The "Post-Classic"/"Neo-Classic" forum was started more or less to provide a "safe haven" forum people to discuss the newer boats without having to have constant harrassment about new-vs-old.
Actually, the forum was "Neo-Classic" at first, but that term was not exactly right, and eventually I changed it to "Post-Classic" sometime later.
I should also point out that some of the boats of the "classic" era get a rather dull reception from the purists, too. The boats like the GTX, the Temptation, and the Mischeif are not exactly heralded as triumphs of form and function by unanimous consent.
I think we should all get together next summer and have a Rendezvous--all drive each others boats, drink each others beer, etc. We just have to find the right time and place, and have it somewhere that doesn't need a 50-mile offshore run to get there.
Now as for the "rough crowd" reputation, I guess I am going to have to go visit that other boating forum and lurk around for a while...see what they're saying.
posted 11-16-2001 09:49 AM ET (US)
Few things if nobody minds.......good! Juris couple things that confused me and please don't get mad but.... You state that your boat is dry...very dry. Then you say you and your kids were getting drenched in choppy seas? 2nd You ask if a classic whaler could have kept up, was'nt the CG boat a Guardian? 3rd The fact that your engines are lets say "less than reliable" if something did happen, you and your 2 boys would have less than 20 minutes of life if dunked overboard. When the CG thinks you're nuts, that usually means turn around.
Main Entry: pru·dence
Again I am not here to judge(no pun intended:) but why would you boast about that?
As far as this board having opinionated arrogant and hostile members.....what forum does'nt? Nobody on this board has been subjected to more hostility than me, mainly because i am an opinionated, arrogant and hostile poster:) Yes there are some jerks here and this forum does have that reputation(so now you know Jimh) but I still enjoy talking about whalers and obviously alot being almost 1500 posts since June.
I think this is a great forum and honestly am a bit confused on the segregation of non-Dougherty designed owners and I think General should be general. I have only owned classics, can't afford a "neo".
Don't drive angry!
posted 11-16-2001 10:13 AM ET (US)
I totally concur with Ventura16’s comments above. I have actually been warned myself about asking questions on this board by fellow posters who have dropped off the board for the above-mentioned reasons. I have referred folks who have specific questions to this board as I think there is valuable information but it can be an unpleasant place to hangout sometimes when the bashing or scolding kicks up.
posted 11-16-2001 11:56 AM ET (US)
Well everyone's entitled to their opinion on which boats they prefer. Me, I've had a couple classics and also 3 post-classics. I feel the post-classics are better boats-all around better boats..Better running and better designed period. Go hull-to-hull up and down the model line starting at the 13 and moving up. They are better riding and have better designed cockpits, while still maintaining the "unsinkablilty" that has been a Whaler trademark.
posted 11-16-2001 05:27 PM ET (US)
OK, I'll bite. I guess this deserved a rebuttal ... mostly due to misconceptions. So excuse me for the need to "ventura" post off topic:
1. Yes, the Coasties were on a Guardian -- I guess that is where I thought (think) the stretch in the term "Classic" comes in (and the silliness of the whole issue). Strictly looking at what appears to be viewed as a "Classic" (pre-1990 build or design) the Guardian and the hull design on which it is based qualifies -- as I subsequently pointed out that the "Classic" 27 Outrage would have been great boat too. HOWEVER, really, the boat the Coasties use is pretty far from the domestic "Classic" that occupies most of the discussion on this forum. Primarily, I was pointing out that the Montauk (which I DO like) and the smaller outrages which seem to form the core of the "Classic" discussion would most likley have been out of place due to the conditions. A "Classic" 27 Outrage would have been a perfectly at home out there. A 21 foot anything (Whaler or not) would have hated it -- it is a matter of weight, deadrise and waterline length. I am certainly not dumping on "Classics" -- I did state that I "lusted" after some of the boats from the Commerical Division ... Guardians, Challengers.
2. Come on, you should understand the difference between a wet boat and a dry boat -- everything depends on conditions. Quartering into the chop with that wind, even with a "dry" boat (and mine is) the spray gets EVERYWHERE. Sheets of it. The hull knocks it down and the wind picks it up and thrashes you with it. I shudder to think what it would have been like on a Regulator or similar boat of that size. Probably like a waterfall (but a softer ride). Therein lies the Coasties looking at us like we were nuts: it was WET not dangerous -- and it looked like they were getting wetter than we were (their Guardian was a 25, I am pretty sure, a smaller boat than mine by a good measure). But, I am SURE that they enjoyed the moment as much as we did -- you could see the grins on their faces. We were bundled up and so were they. It was exhilarating. If it was dangerous (it was a nasty short wind-against-tide chop, but hardly dangerous), don't you think they might have "had a word with me?" Its not as if I went out over a breaking bar. For the record, isn't the classic outrage/guardian hull reputed to be a dry riding hull too? They were soaked!
3. We got to the fishing grounds at the harbor "entrance" (even that is a misnomer as it is still protected by islands and reefs further out) got the lines wet (I had some live eels), got a couple of strikes and then promptly turned around -- not too choppy, rough or dangerous, ultimately just too cold. The Coasties went to check out the cruise liners and the other commercial vessels that ply the harbor. They did not get out of Dodge leaving the moron to head on out into the perfect storm. It helps to know Boston Harbor to picture this -- but there is really no spot more than 3-400 hundred yards from an island and Boston Harbor is vast. You could spend an entire summer exploring it and never venture offshore.
4. True, both engines could have crapped out on me, but without reliable motors, I would not (and will) not go where there is a (more than a remote) possibility of a threat to the boat and the lives of my family. While capable of a truly wicked chop, Boston Harbor does not have direct access to ocean conditions and until I have reliable engines, I won't go out there. I AM (juris)"prudent," not that I have claimed previously that I was.
So boast about the experience? You bet. It was a great moment. A Whaler moment. Irrespective of who designed my boat.
Jurisprudence, n. 1. Knowledge of or practical skill in the law. 2. The philosophy or science of law; legal theory or study. Black's Law Dictionary, 353 (Pocket ed. 1996).
Whew. Tough crowd. Better not tell anyone that I am planning on putting two turbine outboards on it as soon as I can get rid of the Opti-trash. Should be good for 600 hp each. Drag that red 15 footer for pink slips. 0-60 in 5 seconds. Topend limited by the propensity of the hull to act as an airfoil. Yeah, that's it. Now is that "Classic" or "Neo-nuts?"
posted 11-16-2001 07:43 PM ET (US)
For approximately two years now, I have read the posts about the old versus the new. In reality, the newer boats ride better and are more comfortable and, most importantly, unsinkable. Yes, I could have bought a used 17 Montauk and I understand the attraction to this boat. Its a good boat. But being a biologist, who has been out there in bad weather in an old whaler, and has been punished by the pounding for five hours or more while working, there is no way I would have bought a whaler if they stayed with the old designs and models. You got to use one for your work to trully understand the limitations of any boat design.
Whaler was smart to change. My Dauntless 16 performs like a dream as compared to the bone crunching older hulls. It makes the journey offshore enjoyable, not bearable.
Now, about this forum. Whalers are whalers. The number one priority for any boat should be its ability to get you back to shore alive. Whalers will do that in all sorts of weather (old and new). That is why government agencies purchase whalers. The Marine patrol in Florida are now using the newer designs (Outrage hulls with the euro transom). The officers like their ride and their boats.
If whaler didn't evolve and change, they would be out of business or a small niche provider.
I have learned a lot from other whaler owners at this forum. However, I'm getting tired of all the bs about my boat is better because it was designed pre-1990. Once again, a whaler is a whaler. Compare all the boats out there and their quality. Not one of them can hold a candle to a whaler (old or new).
If this crap doesn't stop between the old versus the new, I'm out of here permanently.
posted 11-16-2001 09:33 PM ET (US)
I had thought that the Old vs. New had been laid to rest. Even though there has been a pot shot once in while about the newer Whalers, it has not been anything really serious that could not be addressed in a courteous logical manner.
RussBel who so far has made ten posts, managed to be very insulting with this post,
He is so wrong in his assumption that any owner of a new Boston Whaler would not have an emotional attachment for their boat. In truth anyone who owns a boat, of any make, can and most likely will have an emotional attachment. It cannot be helped due time, effort, and money invested plus the times on the water and memories from the use of the boat.
He is also out of line by saying the new Whalers look like every other plastic boat on the water. The fact is they do not look like every other boat, they are distinct and so are other boats out there. What kind of person can you imagine using the phrase “they all look alike to me.”
Dang if it isn’t almost like telling someone that they have an ugly baby! The good news is that there are not many people that are that insensitive, cruel or stupid enough to say such things.
I want to Thank JimH for this: Truth be told...
It tells me he has welcomed every new whaler owner here to his wonderful site. Even to the point as to try and give us a sanctuary from any negative feedback. And as a reminder to us all, he has asked for photos of newer whalers to be submitted for use here.
And as a New Whaler owner I have posted in all the forums except for the OEM forum. After all the issues/topics in General, Performance, Repair and Modification, META, and Marketplace apply to all years and models. So I feel that Dick’s post here should carry a lot of weight and consideration. Maybe someday there will not be a need for a Post-Classic Forum and some of the other forums suggested in the META may be put in it’s place. For now let us consider the Newer Whalers as Special, deserving it’s own forum. Everyone has something to contribute.
Consider this, the Taliban tried to turn back time and impose their beliefs upon everyone within their domain. Pretty sick isn’t it RussBel.
posted 11-16-2001 10:39 PM ET (US)
I am seeing strange dates appear. On one screen the date is 11/16/2000, when it's really 2001. In this thread only!??? Odd.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 11-17-2001 12:46 AM ET (US)
I have a dream, I have a dream that my Boston Whaler will one day live in a nation where it will not be judged by the date of its manufacture but by the softness of its ride....
posted 11-17-2001 08:39 AM ET (US)
posted 11-17-2001 09:04 AM ET (US)
A nation where...
One day the sons of former Classic Whaler owners and the sons of former Post-Classic owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.
posted 11-17-2001 01:30 PM ET (US)
To answer the original question, I would call this forum "the new classics." Think about it. Thats exactly what they are.
posted 11-19-2001 04:32 PM ET (US)
I think I understand the reason behind the post classic section in that it gives a place for people to discuss 16 dauntless vs 155 Edgwater or whatever without 12 people telling them to buy a Nauset and restore it.
Juris I was just playing with you but you handled that very well. It was a bad joke pointed at the "opinionated jerks attacking "neo" classic owners, etc. It did not come off that way, sounded more like an "opinionated jerk" criticizing you. Which it was supposed to in a kidding way but ...oh never mind. Sorry!
posted 11-19-2001 05:19 PM ET (US)
Made me think of "...the sons of Pullman Porters and the sons of Engineers..." from Arlo Guthrie's "The City Of New Orleans", which resides in kingfish's list of the top ten singles of all time.
posted 11-19-2001 07:20 PM ET (US)
I'm not old enough to remember first hand, but wasn't the classic 13 sort of unusual when it came out compared with other boats of the day? They were not pointed on the end.
I seem to remember that in the early 70's folks who liked the 13' whaler were shocked to see the first generation Outrage. What's that rub rail doing down there on the water line anyway? I don't think that the Outrage was well accepted at frist.
I also seem to remember thinking the smirk looked dumb on the new 17. Now I like it.
So I agree with Dick: the post classics are Whalers, and upon reflection I also agree with Bear.. the certainly don't look like every other boat out there. I'm not sure I understand them yet, but that's probably because I can't affort one.
posted 11-26-2001 07:28 PM ET (US)
I am getting educated. I found the Whaler site some 2-3 months ago and have enjoyed the experienced comments and responses. The majority of the responses are objective and constructive, however, some have been somewhat pointed and abrasive. When I would observe those problems, I would think O'boy, here we go again. And, then reading this thread, the problem became clear - the Whaler site being divided into "classic" and a "not-classic" subsets.
I have had both - in 1976 I bought a new 13 Sport and then in 1996, a 17 Outrage. Know what? - they are both Whalers.
The Whaler site should be directed toward objective and constructive discussions regarding Whaler boats and associated/related equipment, accessories and experiences. As such, there is a significant benefit/value to this "charter". Introducing the "classic" and "not-classic" subsets serves no purpose (that I can see) and only separates and divides the Whaler site as a whole. I don't see a benefit in that result - but if there is a bonafide reason, so be it.
Regardless, the discussions regarding Whaler boats, the experience and knowledge of others are of significant value and I will continue to read and contribute as appropriate.
And above all else and the real bottom line - Jim - your efforts in providing this Whaler site are commendable - many thanks. --- Jerry
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