Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
|Author||Topic: Dougherty Era|
posted 05-17-2001 06:38 AM ET (US)
I read a posting mentioning Robert Dougherty, and his leadership of BW under Reebok.I understand he started EdgeWater Boats, after his BW stint. Out of curiosity I looked at the EdgeWater model lineup and lo and behold their 155 CC hull is a dead ringer for my BW 16SL hull,which Dougherty introduced in '91. I was pleased to see that the hull design was seen as competitive and worth continuing.
It seems the 16SL was overbuilt for its niche, and was not competitive because of its price. The boat was $12000 in '91, and that for a 15'6" product. It is amazing how these things occur.
posted 05-18-2001 10:56 AM ET (US)
If I ever had to buy another boat, it would probably be an Edgewater. My father has a '97 20' CC Edgewater with a 200Hp yahmaha. They seem to hold their value as well or better than a BW. They're built using alot of stuff pioneered during Dougherty's days at BW, but further refined. Nice boats with every bit as loyal a following as the die-hard BW fans. The Edgewater company sends out literature every year on the annual get together for owners.
posted 05-20-2001 07:56 AM ET (US)
Thank you, Where2, I appreciate your comments. It appears that one way or another Dick Fisher's ideas will keep moving on.
posted 05-23-2001 12:46 PM ET (US)
RFK - I think your information on the "Reebock" ownership era of Whaler is incorrect, or the post you are referring to might have been incorrect.
I believe Dougherty never designed Whalers under the Reebock ownership. He had left by then (late '89 I think), and they brought in Peter VanLanker, previously of Black Watch boats, to function as Chief Designer. The 16SL was one of Van Lancker's boats. I believe the last Whaler designed by Dougherty was the 1991 17 Outrage, but don't hold me to that. If you compare the 1991-95 17 Outrage to the 16 SL, you'll see they are by different designers.
Dougherty started the "Marlin" boat line immediately on leaving BW, but the name was soon changed to "Edgewater". There was another line of "Marlin" boats, in
I have been told that Dougherty has now sold Edgewater, and supposedly has another new venture underway.
I recently had a chance to inspect an Edgewater 20, and it looks more like a Whaler than a new Whaler! The fellow that owned it said it was a nice boat, but had little knowledge of the Classic Outrages.
posted 05-23-2001 04:56 PM ET (US)
Thank you. You are accurate. I went back to some articles written in '91 and they credit Van Lancker with the design.
The history you give on Dougherty is interesting. The resemblance between Edgewater's 155CC and the 16SL hull is remarkable.
posted 05-24-2001 08:26 PM ET (US)
Larry, those 18-20 Edgewaters look alot like the Classic Outrages, and I hope Daugherty goes on to make more Classic designs! I do wonder why he sold Edgewater, and I already see design changes on some of the new Edgewater. Regards-Jack Graner.
posted 05-31-2001 03:08 PM ET (US)
Bob's Edgewaters have similar parabolic deadrise hulls as his Boston Whalers did, but due to costs and patent restrictions are built with a fiberglass grid system which is foam filled, rather than the Whaler hull/liner system which is injected with foam while the parts are in their molds. Bob is still on the board at Edgewater but has his own thriving business.
posted 06-03-2001 10:55 PM ET (US)
Whats your opinion on the current accutrac
hulls?I've noticed the v-hull is not very
sharp compared to the competions hulls.
What is Dougherty building other than
posted 06-04-2001 09:14 AM ET (US)
Bob patented a process he calls RAM CAP in which he builds two halves of a part in separate molds. Think of them as the shells of a clam. Molded foam and reinforements are placed inside the frp molds which are mated with the parts still wet. Then a vacuum is pulled on the molds until cured to bond the whole system.
The process won the IMTEC innovation award the last year the show was held. He uses Ram Cap to build the Edgewater 140, hard tops, arches and other large boat parts for various companies.
As concerns the accutrac hulls, I feel they follow established rules for the design of v-hull with one exception. Whaler is obliged to perpetuate the "Whaler Smirk" chine line in new models which, I feel, does nothing for performance but does distinguish the brand from a distance.
posted 06-04-2001 09:28 AM ET (US)
I have to agree that the reverse chine does nothing for performace. What it does do is deflect the bow wake spray down and away providing a dry ride. That has been my experience with it as well as other owners and guests that have riden in my boat. This is also what has been relayed to me by the dealer.
posted 06-04-2001 11:02 AM ET (US)
I've seen quite a few Edgewater boats. The owners all say, "Edgewaters are better than Whalers." But when you own a Whaler, you recognize wishful thinking when you hear it. I owned a Montauk, and currently own a newish 17 Outrage. Each boat is amazing. The fit, the finish, the functionality -- all top rate. Someday, I hope to own a 25 classic Outrage with twin outboards on a Whaler drive bracket. As for Edgewater -- they aren't even my second choice of boat manufacturer -- I'd rather have a Mako.
posted 06-04-2001 02:55 PM ET (US)
I'm not a Marine Architect, and I've had little experience in the "Accutrac" Outrage and Dauntless models, but I can say that the broad "smirk" bow design of the Classic Whalers and Outrages 18-25, adds a LOT to the performance of the hull. I am continually impressed how these boats keep their nose high in heavy seas, with the broad bow design and it's smirk making the difference, and giving an incredible dry ride besides. I've been in some deeper V "offshore fishing boats", and have seen them go THROUGH the waves rather than over them, getting soaked at the same time!
The "smirk" on the newer models is just an affectation, as mentioned, but on the older models it's an integral part of the hull design.
posted 06-04-2001 07:18 PM ET (US)
My post-classic Whaler's smirk is not an affectation, it's just happy to be among the finest boats ever built -- Whaler. (either that or it's laughing at other boats, like Edgewaters - lol)
posted 06-04-2001 10:46 PM ET (US)
I'm very pleased with the dry ride of my
23 Outrage.Until this past week I could count
on one hand how many times I had gotten wet
on the 23.
We were returning from a offshore fishing
Other than getting soaked in my dry riding
Not all lost we did have some nice grouper
posted 06-04-2001 11:24 PM ET (US)
lhg I have a deep respect for your knowledge and experience yet I am dissapointed that you have made that conclusion without the experience required to determine the value and function of the reverse chine on the newer whalers.
I disagree with statement that it is just an affectation, the reverse chine on the accutrack is functional and not for show. It serves the same purpose as it always have, the chine is in fact is carried from the broad bow all the way through to the stern so it is intergal with the hull. It has proven itself in the past and today when riding through a chop.If this is considered part of the hull's performance, then I was wrong in my earlier post. Form follows function and it seems this puts an end to the sentiment that the new whalers look like all other boats.
Of course it does not help when it is raining and your going so fast the drops seem to be falling horzontally.
posted 06-05-2001 01:13 AM ET (US)
Bear, I was only responding to the comment by "boatdesigner" above. He seems, incidentally, to know more about Whalers than he is letting on!
I would agree that the new Whalers have the anti-spray chines on them, as do most boats nowadays. I was not considering that feature a "performance" characteristic, as "boatdesigner" was also not doing. The new boats now tend to have more conventional "pointy" bows, and do not have the distinct "spray deflecting" lip of the older hulls and broader shape to lift the hull over an oncoming wave. That I do consider a performance feature. The overall bow design of the new ones is not the same as the "squarer" older ones. Most of the new Whaler "smirk" look is purely cosmetic, except for the spray rails, which are also used to make a deeper V boat a little more laterally stable.
See the cetacea section on the 23 Walkaround, first introduced in 1991 without a smirk. Compare it to the 24 Outrage, which is the same hull, but they did some cosmetic work on it in 1994 to add a minor smirk because people were not used to the plain looking hull. They were trying to re-capture the old Whaler look, without actually using a Dougherty hull. They're still trying to do this. But I am suspecting that changes may be in the works for yet another series of newer hull designs. We'll have to see. The newer 22 Dauntless has a different bow design from the earlier 14, 16 and 18 Dauntless models. It looks a little more traditional.
posted 06-05-2001 01:34 AM ET (US)
I just took a close look at some of the newer hulls, and I think they do have a very substantial anti spray hull shape in the bow, maybe even more so than the classics.
Guess I need to look more carefully at the new shapes, or not visit this section! Sorry
for the mis-information.
posted 06-05-2001 09:10 AM ET (US)
I think you should continue to visit this section of the forum. Your knowledge and input is invaluable. I based my Dauntless 14 purchase on some of your input. Without your input I would still be thinking about getting a Montauk or Outrage 18. Both of which would have been the wrong boat for me. It was through your input on the "offshore" capabilities that I was able to determine that I wasn't defining my needs well enough. I know that you probably think I wasn't listening to you, but in reality I was. I just came to the conclusion based on my own soul searching coupled with your input and the input of BigZ, Tsuriki BW. B Bear, and others that I needed the boat that I got. If I hadn't gone through this process I would have ended up with a boat that wasn't a good fit for me and my wife.
So please keep posting in this area. Perhaps what you might consider is going fo a good long ride in some of these post classics if the oppurtunity presents itself. Experience is the best way to make a judgement. Don't let the early Brunswick era Dauntless/Outrage/Cross Tackle designs be the only point of referrence. As you stated the Dauntless 22 is different than the 18s and 16s.
If you are ever in the West Michigan area let me know. You are welcome on my 14 anytime. I wouldn't object to ride on you 25 Outrage either. Specifically, I will be on vacation the last week of August and the first week of September. Most of the time fishing at St. Joe, maybe South Haven, Holland, or Grand Haven.
posted 06-05-2001 10:36 PM ET (US)
lhg don't limit yourself on where you post, your input is important and I enjoy reading the perspective you bring into a thread. And most of all I feel you must be good soul to be able to see another's view point. Thank you for being a part of this forum.
By the way I believe the reverse chine on the new whalers is not as pronounced as with the classic hull design, maybe due to the higher freeboard.
posted 06-13-2001 11:13 AM ET (US)
This conversation seems to have run up on the rocks. Let's see if we can get something going.
Let me mention some things concerning terminology. Although terms vary from place to place, "reverse chine" usually refers to a design where the outboard edge of a chine is lower than the inboard edge. The obvious effect of this is to knock spray down and therefore out of the boat. The width of the chine also important for this purpose. Some newer Whalers have a very wide reverse chine forward. The challenge in this design is to know when enough is enough. Knock the spray down, but not all the way to the ocean floor. When the hull is knocking the water down, the water is pushing the boat up, which creates an uncomfortable ride.
On this page I've seen the term "reverse chine" used to describe what many call the "Whaler smirk". The smirk is the laid over lazy S shaped chine line. This feature, I believe, is for brand recognition and family resemblance.
One other tidbit of food for thought on something lgh mentioned. Imagine two boats running side by side in moderate seas. Boat A cuts through the waves. Boat B rides over the waves. Consider the path taken and the forces acting on the passengers. Boat A's path through the waves is a much straighter path and more comfortable. Would you agree?
posted 06-13-2001 11:40 AM ET (US)
But B is probably getting better gas mileage
and will be more stable at rest. Everything
about boats is a tradeoff.
posted 06-13-2001 01:52 PM ET (US)
The experience I was referring to was in an OMC 26' Statos offshore center console fishing boat, with a pointed bow. Lets call that Boat A. Let's call my 25' BW Outrage boat B. If there is any crosswind blowing at all, you get soaked in Boat A. In 6' seas in Lake Michigan, which by definition would have 25 knot winds blowing, the deep v Stratos was a nightmare in stability and wetness. We had the bow go right thru several waves at 15 mph. This would never happen in my Whaler. Absolutely horrible, heavy boat (weighed 7500 lbs). No wonder they stopped making them.
Boatdesigner - your professional input here is appreciated. Since you are in Sarasota, do you work for Genmar/Wellcraft, or Chris Craft?
posted 06-13-2001 02:37 PM ET (US)
Now with Genmar.
Formerly US Marine
posted 06-13-2001 03:14 PM ET (US)
I think "comfort" must be defined in this debate.
Just a week ago I was returning to home port in 3 foot seas with 15-20mph cross wind from port in my 22 Revenge (Boat B). A 22 ft Grady-White Seafarer (Boat A) made the same approach returning to the same home port under the same conditions just several minutes later. All of the passengers in Boat B were dry as a bone. All of the passengers in Boat A looked like they took a shower with their clothes on. Is being bounced a little more (assuming that the Whaler bounces more on the same tack) but being totally dry or being bounced a little less but nearly soaked to the bone more comfortable? For me, I'll take dry with a little more bounce anyday.
Not only does my old Smirk show character, it keeps me dry. Thank you Smirk.
posted 06-13-2001 03:17 PM ET (US)
Interesting topic actually thought this post had been answered and the thread rested, but I see we have moved on ---
Larry, "moderate seas" are not a 25 knot wind with 6' waves! :)
I have been trying to get another ex-designer from Whaler to join in the forum so some ideas can be dispelled and others enlightened up on, so far no luck ( you hear me "T"). It is certainly nice to have input from professionals.
posted 06-22-2001 11:23 AM ET (US)
Boatdesigner, do I know you; my name is Jeff Angeleri, I worked as a designer for Wellcraft in 1996 as an intern from Art Center- I worked for Rod Gerrard, with Greg Haldeman (now with Baja) and Mark Smith. I grew up in Sarasota (I'm now in Detroit designing Chevy trucks)
posted 06-25-2001 02:17 PM ET (US)
Admitedly I started this discussion with mistaken facts, but it has turned out so rich. I wonder if Boatdesigner and Ledfoot would care to apply some of their thoughts to pictures in the Cetacea forum. The information you have shared on design is really interesting. It would be great to see applied to various models of Whalers.
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