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  255 Conquest: Architectual design vs. ride quality

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Author Topic:   255 Conquest: Architectual design vs. ride quality
RudyV posted 09-02-2003 09:29 PM ET (US)   Profile for RudyV   Send Email to RudyV  
we're looking at several models (conquest 255, pursuit 2460 and formula 260 ss) as possible cuddy cabin style crusiers in the 24-26' range for use in the chesapeake bay. i've noted in some boat reviews (eg, Boating magazine), that some of the conquest boats (notably the 255 and 265 conquests) tend to ride bow high (typically 6 degrees) at cruising speeds. is the ride attitude with such a steep angle a design flaw (with most of the engine/fuel weight aft) or a desired design attribute, perhaps to increase the ride in rough water? if most consider it a design flaw, do trim tabs provide enough force to push the bow down without markedly affecting fuel economy through the extra drag?
thanks for your thoughts.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-02-2003 11:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
I have had my 03 255 with twin Yamahas [200 hpdi's] since May and have put on 115 hours. The boat rides fine, handles well, trims nicely and is an overall fine fishing and cruising boat. I have fished it out of west palm all summer and now out of south carolina/savannah. Of course there are always some items I wish Whaler would have did differently, but overall this is the finest Whaler I have owned. I looked at Contenders, Intrepids, Jupiters and Pursuits before making this purchase. I trailer it on a magic trail triple axle with no problems from GA to FL to SC.
mustang7nh posted 09-05-2003 06:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
I had a 23 Conquest and felt that it didn't really settle down until almost 30mph or so. The ride quality actually increased in terms of pounding but you certainly were hanging on and bouncing around some more. I too had a similar question about tabs as I did not have them.

I had a single 225EFI. The boat had many many strengths and for a dual consule cuddy it was overall excellent. But the 25 Revenge I drove seemed to lay flat on top of the water when it cruised and rode better; but the Conquest was a much nicer boat in most other respects. I agree with Traffic Laywer, I was pleasantly surprised with the neo-Whalers.

RudyV posted 09-07-2003 01:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for RudyV  Send Email to RudyV     
we just came back from the atlantic city boat show where we were able to look at 2 of the 3 boats i listed. my wife was most impressed by the amount of storage on the 255 and the fact that the whaler unsinkable. i liked the cockpit but disliked the relatively low position of the top of the windshield. i'm 6'3" and i suspect that once on plane, i would not be able to see the horizon unless i sat down.

i also want to do a bit more research on the power options and fuel economy for this model. any idea of what your consumption of fuel and oil is with the yamaha's? i think an ideal set up would be twin 150 four strokes, but i don't know if whaler allows this option or the boat could be purchased without the motors. what's the slowest you can cruise without falling off plane and without using the trim tabs?

btw, we saw the 2670 pursuit denali at the show and my wife liked that one even more than the 255 but that's a story for another board.

mustang7nh posted 09-09-2003 07:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for mustang7nh  Send Email to mustang7nh     
My experience with the 23 Conquest that likely generalizes to the 255: Don't skimp on power, max it out. You will likely get better fuel economy. The boats are relatively heavy so I found low end torque real important to slow that plane speed down. On my single, I had trouble dropping it any lower than 3200rpm which was about 21mph. The max HP on that boat is 450, twin 200s are a minimum and forget four strokes (IMO). You want good torque to push that thing on a slow plane to get a better ride quality. I wouldn't go EFI because of the fuel useage, but the DI engines would be great. I've just got my newest Whaler with a 225 YamEFI and now know what low end torque is about. I have to say that having a setup that purrs at 3000rpm (not bogging down or falling off plane) makes using the boat so much more enjoyable. 225s would be even better and will likely burn no more fuel than 200s and will give you better resale.

Underpowered Whalers are do not hold their value as well IMO, think about, if I want to repower I've got to add 30 grand or more to that package down the road.

I did not have tabs and would consider having them a must.

I was told by a dealer that you could not order them without engines. Its a package now-a-days.

As far as the windshield, I'm not as tall as you but would think that when cruising the bow rise would bring the window up a bit and you may be ok. Not sure on that one.

I can't comment on the Denali as I have no experience with that boat or brand. I would say that the fit and finish of my Conquest was superb and if I was shopping in the 255 price range new I would definitely consider the Whaler. Plus, Whaler owners are one big family as you can see here and that comraderie and helpfulness is worth a lot in my opinion and brings much enjoyment to the boating lifestyle.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-09-2003 11:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Rudy;
The Denali is a nice product,if you can't find a dealer to rig Yamahas on your purchase, buy the pursuit. The largers Whalers with opti power do not resell well, much less run.
lhg posted 09-09-2003 06:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
If you believe the above comment, I've got a bridge I'd like sell you.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-10-2003 10:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Still trolling for Mercury I see.
homey posted 09-11-2003 12:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
Both brands(Whaler & Pursuit)are high quality. I worked part time for a Pursuit dealer a couple of years ago and was able to seatrial most of their boats. The Denali's are nice and the model you mention 2670, I beleive is new for this year. You may want to wait until they work all the bugs out first... Pursuit still manufactures their boats with wood.(old technology) Also, they only offer a 5 year warranty on those pricy toys...The Whaler is unsinkable and they offer a 10 year warranty. Thats something to consider when your ready to sell. The only drawback with Whaler is the Mercury power. Mercury is a fine motor but, Yamaha is excellent...Good luck in your choice! Homey.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-11-2003 07:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
News for you, plenty of wood in my new Conquest.
lhg posted 09-11-2003 02:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Homey's "drawback" and "excellent" statements need to be examined, since it's an unsubstantiated slap at Whaler's parent again. It's getting old around CW these days. Let's take the word "excellent". It is all in the eyes of the beholder/user. I take excellent to mean:

1. getting what you're paying for in HP ratings, or how the 10% fudge factor is used & manipulated.
2. overall design and how the engine looks on a boat, it's
shape, in other words.
3. overall performance, such as power, top speed, acceleration, fuel use and engine decible sound at running speeds.
4. long life, corrosion resistance, and service availability.

In all of the above, I would say Mercurys are THE "excellent" motors, although Yamahas are still a FINE motor.

So obviously, Homey's definition of excellent is different from mine, which is fine by all of us, I'm sure. But is this a "drawback against Mercury & Boston Whaler's ability to sell boats? Hardly.

Now, regarding the "drawback" of having to buy a Whaler instead of a Yamaha. What could be the drawback here?

Is it having to take one or two of Mercury's new 250HP supercharged 2.6 liter 250HP 4-stroke engines on your Whaler instead of a "previous generation technology" 3.3 liter Yamaha 225 4-stroke or 250 HP HPDI?

Is it having to take one of the Mercury/Yamaha joint ventured 30, 40, 50 & 60 HP 4-stroke EFI's instead of the same Yamaha motor with only carbs?

Is it having to take a Whaler with a Mercury/Yamaha produced identical 75, 90, 115 or 225 4-stroke engine in black rather than grey, especially when the black engines are reported to have better powerhead sound insulation?

So we know Mercury's 4-strokes could not be the "drawback".

How about Optimax's. Is it having to take one of these instead of the slower, heavier, and just as troublesome HPDI's. The 2003 HPDI's have had some problems, especially the 250, the 2003 Opti's, none. Maybe this is the drawback?

What about Mercury's new 75,90 and 115 Optimax offerings, certainly an option for the 170, Dauntless and new Nantucket. Yamaha only has 2-stroke and 4-stroke offerings in this HP range, for these boats, but now Mercury has the additional option of clean, faster DFI performance. More performance/technology choices does not seem to me to be a "drawback", as others here have pointed out in the Suzuki discussions.

Or is the drawback the good old fashioned 2-strokes. You can't even get a Yamaha 225/250 2-stroke EFI, while Merc still makes them. Again, more choice is not a drawback. Even when they made one, the Merc would outperform it. Mercury had EFI's ten years before Yamaha. How about the drawback of having to take a Mercury 90, actually about 100HP and with an 18 amp alternator, on a new 170, instead of a Yamaha 90, actually about 82 HP, and with a 10 amp alternator. Not a drawback to me. Or about having to take a Merc 60, at 59 cubic inches and a 16 amp alternator as opposed to a Yamaha 60 at 52 cubinc inches and a 6 amp alternator, on a new Sport 150. It's not even necessary to bring up Mercury's 150-200 EFI V-6's. They run a lot quieter and faster than the same size Yamaha's, believe me. Mercury powers the racing, go-fast and bass boat circuits for a reason.

So now I have explained why I think having to take a Yamaha on a new Whaler would be a real "drawback".

Homey, would you please explain, at least for the benefit of those Boston Whaler factory poeple who frequent this site, with some facts if you can, as to why Mercurys, either in 4-stroke, DFI or 2-stroke technology, are such a "drawback" whne compared to Yamaha's offerings, for Boston Whaler. Or maybe I have now changed your brand loyalty?

I do think Yamaha makes a fine motor, however, just not all around excellent when all aspects and characteristics of an outboard are taken into consideration.

homey posted 09-12-2003 12:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
Rudyv,


Whats really great about this site are all the opinions, experiences, and views are shared. My response to Rudyv was based on my personal opinion, and experience.(Us. Coast Guard-active duty, lifelong boat owner, (2)Whalers, and employment at 2 marinas/boat dealer)

Trafficlawyer, You said your Conquest has plenty of wood. Your statement was vague. Wood accents, stringers, or deck panels? (pursuit has wood stringers, transom, and balsa decking) I saw a 2001 Pursuit 24' transom split, and nearly ripped off. It was inspected and ruled structurely defective. Warranty covered it, Probably a rare occurrence...

lhg, I bet that Yamaha painted black costs the consumer more...Mercury is going to roll the added cost right back on the consumer. The fact that Mercury didn't have the technology to build their own high horsepower 4-stroke makes me less confident in their product...The supercharged 2.6 liter hasn't been on the market long enough to be tested yet...

I could go on and on but, its not necessary. In my opinion Yamaha makes better outboard motors than Mercury...Ask the guys that repair them...

Disclaimer:I do not work for Yamaha or Boston Whaler. I currently own a 25' Outrage,Whalerdrive/cuddy with a pair of old Johnsons! Homey.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-12-2003 07:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
The fact that Mercury didn't have the technology to build their own high horsepower 4-stroke makes me less confident in their product...

Interesting,that's gonna piss off the merc troll.

lhg posted 09-12-2003 02:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Well, Homey & Traffic, I hope you feel good about coming into the section frequented by the owners of new Boston Whalers with Mercurys, and dumping on the engines that they have, or might purchase, with their Whaler. Nice work. How many killed BW sales is your objective? Great for the morale, goodwill and reputation of the participants of this site, too. By association, you're not doing the people who own Yamahas, but don't ever trash Mercury, any favors either.

As for asking the guy that repairs Yamahas, the last Yamaha mechanic I talked to, doing a repair on a mint Yamaha 200 on a Whaler, said that engine really only puts out about 170HP at the prop. The owner was not too thrilled to hear this, and has even said his next engine will be a Mercury.
I guess it just depends on who you or I is talking to!

homey posted 09-12-2003 02:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
lhg,

1. I didn't trash Mercury, actually I said it was a fine motor. I personally prefer Yamaha...

2. In order to get a real perspective of a brands reliability you have to ask more then 1 mechanic...

3. I wasn't looking to kill Whaler sales either. In my prior post I pointed out Whaler's 10 year hull warranty...

pjvh posted 09-12-2003 03:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
I have a Conquest 23 with twin Yamaha 130s which I keep in Greece. I can get a top speed of 46 mph - with the bimini down! - and she goes like a dream. She's a proper boat. You don't find many Mercury outboards in Greece. They are pretty unpopular. In fact, the boatyard where I keep my Whaler pleaded with me not to get a boat with Mercurys as they can be such a problem. They love Yams because they're simple to service and, simply don't go wrong so much. The only guy in Greece I know with Mercurys on his Whaler had terrible problems with them. I'm hoping to import my next Whaler a year or two old direct from the States - much cheaper than sourcing in Europe even with transport costs. But the problem is finding one either with Yamahas or with no engines at all so I can rig it later. Any ideas gratefully received.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-12-2003 03:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
lhg;
You ALWAYS lose sight that this web is full of differing opinions, good or bad or just plain different. You have My opinion of the mercury optimax in that its simply a POS and thats based on personal experiences which by way you don't have. I don't care if yamaha or anyone else gets bashed either its just opinion, take it or leave it, but for goodness sakes stop taking it personally and always defending the indefensible. By the way I had a printout some time time ago that listed your occupation as a Mercury Representative and shortly after one of our 'debates' you deleted it.
Clark Roberts posted 09-12-2003 03:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Clark Roberts  Send Email to Clark Roberts     
I have been on this forum since its inception and so has LHG and to my knowledge he has never listed "Mercury Representative" as an occupation/connection/profile..etc. He is a passionate boater, helpful poster, Merc/Whaler owner and always tells it like he sees it! Clark ... Spruce Creek Navy
pjvh posted 09-12-2003 04:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
Also, look up BWs for sale in Europe and you'll find the majority of them come with Yamahas - for a very good reason...
lhg posted 09-12-2003 05:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Yea, God forbid the French and Germans and Greeks would have to buy a boat with US made power. Sure hope they're not buying those Yamaha 30, 40 & 60 HP 4-strokes though!
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-12-2003 06:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Mr. Clark Roberts;
I don't have any problem with him 'telling it like he sees it'. I encourage that. The problem I have is when he belittles other people for expressing opposing views.
pjvh posted 09-13-2003 03:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
Is it absolutely necessary for lhg to make xenophobic remarks about the French, Greeks etc? I think that's just pathetic and distinctly unhelpful in these uneasy political times. And what he says is nonsense anyway. If Europeans hate America so much why are they buying Whalers in the first place? It's just that Mercurys either don't start when you want them to or they tend to stop suddenly rather too often. That might not matter on a U.S. lake ,but it's bad news when the meltemi is hurtling across the Aegean.
North Beach posted 09-13-2003 09:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for North Beach    
Did LHG deny being a mercury rep? I think it is important to know that when reviewing a poster's posts. Its fair to ask about financial intersts in the topic discussed.
AllanR posted 09-14-2003 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for AllanR  Send Email to AllanR     
I have to agree with Trafficlawyer. There appears to be a definite bias against those who simply would not prefer Mercury engines. Even those who have a had a bad experience with them get attacked. It is almost that they are unpatriotic if they do not support the only choice of engine that BW offers, no matter if they are good or not.

The site should be open to all opinions, especially from those who have personal experience with a particular product. I personally would like to hear both sides and make my own decision. I also like to hear about those who had good experience with a product.

Personally, I have a 1994 Johnson 90 2 stroke on my Montauk. I have no complaints. But some day I will have to repower and I am always curious to hear opinions about various products.

From what I have heard, on this site and others, I don't think that at present I would touch any of the high pressure direct injection 2 strokes of any brand. There seems to be a lot of complaints from a number of different sources about this technology, what with powerhead failures and so on.

Resale value also tells you a lot. Some almost new engines are basically worthless due to their reputations.

If that doesn''t tell you something about a product, then nothing does.

pjvh posted 09-14-2003 02:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
What I don't understand is that if it's straightforward getting a new Whaler rigged with a non-Mercury engine in Europe, why is it such a problem in America? Is it because Boston Whaler recognise that some Europeans have a problem with Mercury and, on the basis that if you can't beat 'em you might as well join 'em, they reckon that they would rather sell their boats rigged with another engine than not sell their boats at all? Perhaps prospective BW buyers in the States need to be a bit tougher about demanding the engine of their choice.
jimh posted 09-14-2003 07:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The perception of brand quality and reliability is probably influenced most by the local dealer. If you have a strong dealer selling a decent brand, he will fill his local market with those engines. I have never seen a SUZUKI outboard in Michigan in my life, yet when I visited North Carolina they were on half the boats I saw. The presence of three strong local dealerships, all selling Suzuki, probably contributed to that.

It has been reported that dealers like to sell Yamaha engines because the premium price they can charge for them creates more profit for the dealer. Maybe some of these guys who get on here and rave about the Yamaha engines are really dealers just trying to keep those prices high. Who really knows.

As for LHG, I really do know and can state without hesitation that he has no connection at all with Mercury, other than being from the same state that hosts Mercury's headquarters, Illinois. He has been boating for 40 years or more and has owned multiple Boston Whaler boats, all with Mercury engines on them.

Everyone is welcome to report their anecdotal experience with their particular brand of outboard. When people start painting with broader strokes it causes problems.

Barney posted 09-14-2003 08:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barney  Send Email to Barney     
At this point, it seems all of the outboard manufacturers have learned lessons. Some have been real hard lessons. Some broke the company, and some have caused mental scars on the customer, "can't trust the thing". I guess that improving the 2 stroke outboard has been an extremely tough path. Building a 4 stroke when you've been building 2 strokes for decades is hard path too. And, let's face it, it has been very bitter path for some outboard owners. In some cases very, very bitter, with some buyers giving the boat back to the bank because of multiple powerhead failures and no warranty.

I think, where we are now with the 2 strokes with injection etc. and 4 strokes, is good, whatever outboard you buy. The manufacturers have got it. We complain about the little things now, such as plastic parts versus brass parts. The great outboards are coming. The competition between the manufacturers is unreal. This is to our benefit. But, it's whatever you want to pay for too. ....Let's move on.

Whalers are us. RudyV should buy the Whaler. Period. Jim

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-14-2003 10:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
"It has been reported that dealers like to sell Yamaha engines because the premium price they can charge for them creates more profit for the dealer."

The predominant reason that dealers like to sell them, Is because they work and delaers like happy customers.

PSW posted 09-15-2003 12:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for PSW  Send Email to PSW     
Actually I just talked to a service manager at a very reputable dealer that stated he thought yamaha has become arrogant and he thinks that there are other brands out there now that deserve a fair shake, specifically Evinrude.

PSW

homey posted 09-15-2003 01:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for homey  Send Email to homey     
If I were buying new power, I would steer clear of Evinrude/Johnson at the present time. From what I've heard Bombardier is currently trying to sell/offload their outboard division...I read a article in a boating magazine, anyone heard anything similar?

I would stick with Japanese power, very reliable....Huge companies like Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha. They have the money to drop into new and better technology. They lead in many electronics and manufacture all sorts of products...

Before you start bashing me for not endorsing American Outboards, we(Amaerica) are working with these Japanese companies. However, I work hard for my money and I'm not about to buy a product based only on where its made. I will buy the product I feel is the highest Quality...

Knot at Work posted 09-15-2003 10:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for Knot at Work  Send Email to Knot at Work     
Mercury, hmm... American.

Boston Whaler, hmm... also American.

As for Foreign wants and the Whalers? Europeans LOVE American products.

What PJVH is not telling you is that GREECE has thousands of islands and soem very small fishing villages...
What you are not hearing is that the Greek Whaler in question is probably on one of the little islands and that is why no one has a Merc power plant. Hell the fishing boats are mainly powered my FIAT or SEAT Diesel motors.

I lived in Sicily for 5 years, The Sicilians LOVED my S-10 Chevrolet. No doubt Europeans like the Whalers, they are American and standout in a crowd.

I have a 90 HP Merc and I love it.

With respect

-Jeff

pjvh posted 09-15-2003 01:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
Yes, I keep my Whaler on a lovely little Greek island and it is much admired by the locals. Each year I have offers to buy her, but I think I will hold out until I can afford my total fantasy which is a Conq 28. My Conq 23 is not the only Whaler in the yard. There are also a couple of the little ones and a spanking, new, envy-inducing Outrage 28...all powered by Yamaha.

Mention the name Mercury and the fishermen silently make the sign of the cross....

lhg posted 09-15-2003 02:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Those Greek fisherman sound like a bunch of idiots to me.

You should take your anti-Mercury agenda elsewhere.
Where'd we pick up this guy, anyway?

Now, does anybody have anything positive to say about the Boston Whaler 255 Conquest itself?

Knot at Work posted 09-15-2003 03:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Knot at Work  Send Email to Knot at Work     
Mercury- and greek fisherman making the sign of the cross...

Because MERCURY was a ROMAN god! (what is the greek equivalant to Mercury? Please tell me it is not Yamaha)

I loved the times I went to Rhodes and Crete...

I prefer my Mercury on my Whaler, but then again I have a an American Flag flying on my Whaler

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-15-2003 04:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
YES lhg:

GREAT BOAT, GREAT MOTORS, that's it!

jimh posted 09-15-2003 10:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I heard that Greek fisherman really like outboards that have these characteristics:

--very low compression make easy to pull start;
--loose fitting rings with lotsa blow by so cylinder walls drenched in oil and last for ever;
--hey, it smokes a little, but that keeps the bugs off;
--not too heavy 'cuz gotta haul up from the beach every day else Pepino and the boys steal her at night;
--magneto ignition so need no battery to run her;

Not exactly your 225-Optimax customers over there, I'd guess.

alkar posted 09-16-2003 01:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
These motor brand bashing arguments are just plain silly. I don't understand why they surface so regularly, or why folks become so passionate in their efforts to trash the competition. The reality is that most of the motors built today are very well designed and very durable. In my experience, ALL the manufacturers are building motors that are better than the best motors of the 1980s. That's interesting, I think, because much of the anecdotal support for the trashing of brand X is based upon a bad experience with a brand X motor built during the 70s or 80s. Is it rational to judge the new Dodge/Cummins trucks based on a bad experience with a 1973 Dodge Dart? I don't think so. Well, my 1973 Johnson "Sea Horse" has about as much in common with a new ficht...

During a brief break in my career I went to work for a boat manufacturer. The manufacturer sold outboards made by Yamaha, Mercury, and Honda. I can't recall the exact numbers, but I believe our total outboard volume was in the neighborhood of 35-50 outboards per month between the three manufacturers. At the time I was hired, the company had OEM status with Mercury, which meant that we were buying motors substantially BELOW dealer cost. By the time I left the company we were in the process of converting to OEM Yamaha. That switch, by the way, was driven by marketing and margin, not motor quality. Yamaha simply made a commitment to compete more aggressively in our market. (Mercury was relatively new to the four stroke market, and we needed a viable and popular four stroke kicker to compete with Honda. Yamaha's sustained popularity in the four stroke kicker market helped to earn our OEM business. Honda had no OEM program and was not willing to offer a competitive discount.)

I negotiated wholesale motor purchases and worked with manufacturer's representatives and customers, including retailers, on warranty support issues. In my experience ALL three of the above motor manufacturers provided VERY good motors and good warranty support. The failure/warranty return rate was EXTREMELY low for all three manufacturers. Based on my observations of failure rates, I would not hesitate to repower my boat with a motor made by ANY of the three manufacturers I worked with. I would expect similar reliability with most OMC/Suzuki motors too, I just don't have volume experience with them.

Every manufacturer will lay an occasional egg. That's especially true if the manufacturer is on the leading edge of technology and trying to stay there. Pushing the envelope, and trying to fund the research it takes to stay there, tends to net an occasional mistake. We see the same phenomenon in the auto industry - but we don't trash General Motors just because their 7.2 liter diesels were a disaster.

Mercury has made some motors that had problems requiring extensive warranty support. The same is true of Yamaha. Honda, which has a justifiably outstanding reputation for quality, has had their share of mistakes too. I have a pair of Honda 115s which were recalled because of a design flaw in the fuel injection system. The repair bill, absorbed by Honda, was over $900. None of the foregoing provides justification for trashing any of the three manufacturers, because the overwhelming majority of their motors are reliable.

Somebody recently opined that the reason fishermen in Belize bought Yamaha motors was because they couldn't afford to have a motor fail. That statement has a nice, dramatic ring to it, but it's not based in fact. The reality is that those fishermen are buying Yamaha motors because, for whatever reason, Yamaha has committed to support that market. The parts are at least somewhat available through local dealers, and the motors are sold at a price the locals can afford. That has everything to do with Yamaha's commitment to the Caribbean market, and NOTHING to do with relative motor quality.

I don't have the numbers, so this is speculation on my part, but I suspect the Country of Belize probably buys fewer outboard motors in a year than a large marina in a city like Miami - and that probably explains why Mercury/OMC/Suzuki are not falling over each other trying to get into the market.

In a world in which Suzuki is building Johnson motors, Yamaha is building Mercury motors, Mercury is building Yamaha motors, and Tohatsu is building Nissan motors, it's just plain silly to trash each other - but if somebody decides that it's necessary or productive, he ought to dig for the data to support a rational fact-based argument.

pjvh posted 09-16-2003 04:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
lhg could do with getting a sense of humour - and why does he have more right to feature in this forum than anyone else? That's the trouble with these boating forums: they get so incestuous; jammed up with people working in the trade.

The Greek equivalent of Mercury is Hermes - like the scarves.

jimh is just plain insulting and talks like a small-towner when actually there's a big world out there. If he bothered to take a closer look at it he would discover that we are surprisingly civilised in Europe. But people like him probably want to keep this forum strictly American with no one from overseas rocking the boat, so to speak.

13DAUNTLESS posted 09-16-2003 09:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for 13DAUNTLESS  Send Email to 13DAUNTLESS     
When in Rome do as the Romans do. When in Greece DON'T DO AS THE GREEKS DO!!!
alkar posted 09-16-2003 02:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for alkar  Send Email to alkar     
Pjvh,

LHG (Larry) does not "work in the trade", nor does he claim a right to exert disproportionate influence over this forum. His status and influence here are a function of the respect he has earned over time, and that is a function of his willingness to help and the time-proven quality of his advice.

People who characterize Larry as a Mercury "shill" are trying, unfairly, to depreciate the value of Larry's support for Mercury motors. His support for Mercury is based on his substantial personal experience with them. His experience should not be at all surprising, as the vast majority of Mercury motors run like a watch and provide many years of great service (as do the vast majority of Yamahas, Suzukis, etc...)

I've never met Larry, and we live half a country apart, but he's helped me with numerous Whaler projects, more than once at his expense (mailing information, etc).

We'd all be better off if these discussions didn't devolve into personal attacks.

North Beach posted 09-16-2003 03:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for North Beach    
Did LHG ever say he was not a mercury rep. as Trafficlawyer has alleged? If not, he should say not, himself.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-16-2003 04:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
alkar;

you're right, these discussions should not evolve into personal attacks, however lhg has an obsession with this mercury puffery and usually insults persons who dont share his simplistic view of the 'brunswick' world. Personally, I don't care what anybody buys, its like that old addage, one mans golds is anothers shit.

lhg posted 09-16-2003 04:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Posts above by JimH, Clark Roberts and Alkar aren't good enough for you?

All are correct and well stated.

diveorfish posted 09-16-2003 05:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for diveorfish  Send Email to diveorfish     
This Mercury debate rages on many discussion groups. Trafficlawyerís experience with Mercury was a legitimate nightmare and I really canít blame him for being bitter. My own experience with my supposed bullet proof 135 Optiís has been mixed. I currently have about 80 hours on mine. So far: Iíve blown a head, had all the injector sets replaced and had two service bulletins performed (one was to have the fuel rails re-routed and the other was to add some kit to keep them from overheating at trolling speeds, which was happening to me about a month ago). Frankly, I was pretty pissed off and very concerned that I bought two pieces of junk. I the flip side though, Mercury has been stellar in authorizing the work and sending the parts. Since this work has been completed, Iíve been on two open ocean trips of 70 miles each in 4 foot seas on average. During those trips my boat and motors have been flawless and the engines ran like a bat out of hell yet, sipped the gas and oil. I really think now that my boat and its engines have been fully debugged and my confidence is very high, but only time will tell. Thank god I have a 5 year warranty.

I believe that Mercury has had problems with the DFI technology but they are not the only ones. Iím reading a lot about Yamaha DFI problems on ďthehulltruth.comĒ these days and they are very Yamaha biased. The Evinude problems were legendary. If anything, I am kind of mad at all of them for marketing such temperamental machines before they were ready, but I guess itís the nature of the DFI beast. Finally, I believe that the Optis of this year are finally bullet proof from what Iíve been hearing. When they are working correctly they are great engines. You sure see a heck of a lot of them out there.

In my case, I bought a left over model from the previous year and in retrospect, I donít think it was very good for the boat or the engines to sit for that long. It may have been a big contributor to my problems.

Anyway back to the topic at hand. The trim tabs on the bigger whalers make all the difference.

My 23 Outrage with twin 135s, weigh is about 300 lbs more than a single 225, a Full gas tank weighs about 500 lbs more than half a tank, and three large fishing buddies at the stern weigh about 600 lbs. The total extra weight is about 1400 lbs over a single engine configuration with half a tank of gas just one buddy. That kind of weight will affect the performance of the boat and the trim tabs are definitely required to offset the aforementioned stern heavy configuration. When I put the tabs down, the bow comes down and the boat knifes though the water providing a very smooth ride. If I didnít have the tabs down, my boat would pound me like a pile driver and ride bow high. I couldnít imagine not having trim tabs on my Whaler and Iíll bet the same holds true for the 23 Conquest and the 255 as well. When the boat is trimmed right, the gas mileage is also better because the boat is running more efficiently.

I could be wrong but my personal belief is that they design the boat to run well with one engine and a about a quarter tank of gas. As you start loading the boat down, the boat gets stern heavy and you need the trim tabs to counter act the effect. I think they have to design them that way because if the boat is bow heavy, there is no way to counter act it.

ryanwhaler posted 09-16-2003 06:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for ryanwhaler  Send Email to ryanwhaler     
I can't see why anyone would want to buy a new Whaler without Mercury power. I was told by a Mercury sales rep the Mercury and Whaler work together disineing the hulls, all the make them peform well together.

I really can't give an opinon on the Mercury vs. Yammha thing. I've only owned two outboard motors in my life, they where both Mercurys. They where both under 20hp, so I really am in no place to say who makes a better motor. I'd like to try OMC power someday, but thats is not because I think "Mercury sucks", I just want to try something different.

I mean really, who cares?
This trool who calls himself "TRAFFICLAWYER " likes Yammha's. LHG likes Mercurys. So lhg can enjoy his Mercs and trafflclawyer can buy a Yammha. Their, no need to bash one another.

jimh posted 09-16-2003 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I'm not a "small-town" thinker, but I laugh at people who bring parochial values and expect to be immune to criticism.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 09-16-2003 09:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
ryanwhaler

No need to bash, you're right,so why the name calling? trool? Is that some new juvenile jargon you invented?

lhg posted 09-16-2003 09:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Didn't take long for "pjvh" to hang himself.
pjvh posted 09-17-2003 11:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for pjvh  Send Email to pjvh     
So anywhere outside America is "parochial", is it? Ahem.
Fishing Fanatic posted 10-14-2005 11:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for Fishing Fanatic  Send Email to Fishing Fanatic     
Well boys, I own a 255 conquest w/ duel 225 hp merc 4 strokes and anyone that has any quams about either the boat or the motors should come with me on a 69 mph ride !!!! Like MC hammer says u cant touch this. I've put 300 hours on the Boat now and nothing has missed a beat. Other than the $7000 worth of upgrades to the electrical system.. who the hell would not crimp the major ground wire for the front electrics and also mount the battery switches and the breakers below the static water line anyways.. oh I know.. Boston Whaler..
TightlinesPE posted 10-15-2005 02:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for TightlinesPE  Send Email to TightlinesPE     
I believe that the Verados are tried and true. Mercury has over 20,000 hours in testing, and I know many owners with over 400 hours on their Verados. I have 130 hours on mine without a hiccup...

Forget about the bigger block HPDI motors....the Yam 225 4 strokes don't have the gut the Verados do....

OptiMax is tried and true...they are a superb motor....

Mercury is leading the industry now with their Verados and I don't see anyone catching them anytime soon. DTS, power steering, digital information centers; it really can't get much sweeter than that.

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 10-17-2005 09:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
What's this old post doing back here anyhow????duh,duh's
LHG posted 10-17-2005 09:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Jack - I was wondering the same thing. Ok, I'm sufficiently embarrassed.

Let me know if you're going be down south this winter. I've got an old 21 you've got to see and experience!

TRAFFICLAWYER posted 10-17-2005 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
Larry:

We just got back from 3 days in Beaufort,SC had the 15' sport serviced and fished the rest of the time. Weather was superb, about 80 not a cloud in the sky and little wind but that 8'+ tide is a pain in the butt.

We're planning on being down with the 15' around 12/24 to 12/30. PS Sherri really liked that restaurant you took us too somewhere around LHP.

Jack

LHG posted 10-18-2005 12:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Great news - Susan and I will be there the same time. I'd like to see that 150. Let's do some boating, and the 150 should be a great boat for vacationing and trailering around. I will have my Classic 1971 rib side 21 Outrage down this season, for a change of pace.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 10-18-2005 07:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for TRAFFICLAWYER    
I'll get your cell # closer to the time.
JJN3 posted 10-24-2005 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for JJN3  Send Email to JJN3     
I had a 235 Robalo Cuddy with a 225 Yamaha, now have a 2003 275 BW Conquest with twin Merc 225 four strokes (yes the Yamaha blocks dressed in black).

Regarding the boat....
The 275 rides bow high unless you run tabs down somewhat at cruise. Other than that we love the boat (wish the helm chair was a bit higher as I am not 6'3" so I stand most of the time).

Regarding the engines....
The Merc 225s are definetly better sound-proofed. The Yamaha we had was a 2004 225, and the Mercs are far easier on the ears. I am not sure if there are any differences regarding fuel use, although the underpowering comment is sure a good one. Our 2004 Robalo got about 2.1 mpg under ideal fully loaded conditions, the 2003 Conquest does about 1.8 mpg; not too bad considering the boat is almost twice the weight of the Robalo. The twin 225's are the max allowed for the 275; I would not want anything less. We test ran a boat with the Verado's on them, and they are even quieter, and the digital throttle controls are amazing. Too bad you cant have that retrofit!

John

Salty Sally posted 11-04-2005 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Salty Sally  Send Email to Salty Sally     
I can't comment directly on the 255 but had a Conquest 23 with twin 115 Johnson Ficts and loved it. We traded it for a 2001 265 (later called the 275(Conquest to get an enclosed head and more space. Both boats have a good ride in the bay and ocean, no pounding, gets on plane quickly and pretty fuel-efficient. The big improvement I made to the 265 was getting rid of the original 225 Optimaxes and replacing them with 225 4 stroke Yamahas. My Optimaxes had electrical problems in 2001, air pump problems in 2002 and fuel system problems in 2003. No real show stoppers but very annoying. They were very efficient. The Yamahas are smooth, quiet and trouble free. This year we decided to change our boating activities and purchase a 24 Outrage with a pair of 150 Verados. My neighbor has 225 Verados on a 31 and its phenomenal. We're basically day (hour) boaters and now that our daughter is older and prefers to sit out in the open, no one enters the cabin other than to get a soda. Because we live on a lagoon, we never cruise the boat. The Conquest has about 55 hours on the Yamahas. It's now on the market at my dealer, Hance & Smythe in Manahawkin NJ. I've been with them now for 20 years and 5 Whalers. I would have a hard time buying any boat from another dealership.

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