posted 09-07-2003 01:00 PM ET (US)            

i also want to do a bit more research on the power options and fuel economy for this model. any idea of what your consumption of fuel and oil is with the yamaha's? i think an ideal set up would be twin 150 four strokes, but i don't know if whaler allows this option or the boat could be purchased without the motors. what's the slowest you can cruise without falling off plane and without using the trim tabs?

posted 09-09-2003 07:35 AM ET (US)            

Underpowered Whalers are do not hold their value as well IMO, think about, if I want to repower I've got to add 30 grand or more to that package down the road.

I did not have tabs and would consider having them a must.

I was told by a dealer that you could not order them without engines. Its a package now-a-days.

As far as the windshield, I'm not as tall as you but would think that when cruising the bow rise would bring the window up a bit and you may be ok. Not sure on that one.

posted 09-11-2003 02:33 PM ET (US)         

In all of the above, I would say Mercurys are THE "excellent" motors, although Yamahas are still a FINE motor.

So obviously, Homey's definition of excellent is different from mine, which is fine by all of us, I'm sure. But is this a "drawback against Mercury & Boston Whaler's ability to sell boats? Hardly.

Now, regarding the "drawback" of having to buy a Whaler instead of a Yamaha. What could be the drawback here?

Is it having to take one or two of Mercury's new 250HP supercharged 2.6 liter 250HP 4-stroke engines on your Whaler instead of a "previous generation technology" 3.3 liter Yamaha 225 4-stroke or 250 HP HPDI?

Is it having to take one of the Mercury/Yamaha joint ventured 30, 40, 50 & 60 HP 4-stroke EFI's instead of the same Yamaha motor with only carbs?

Is it having to take a Whaler with a Mercury/Yamaha produced identical 75, 90, 115 or 225 4-stroke engine in black rather than grey, especially when the black engines are reported to have better powerhead sound insulation?

So we know Mercury's 4-strokes could not be the "drawback".

How about Optimax's. Is it having to take one of these instead of the slower, heavier, and just as troublesome HPDI's. The 2003 HPDI's have had some problems, especially the 250, the 2003 Opti's, none. Maybe this is the drawback?

What about Mercury's new 75,90 and 115 Optimax offerings, certainly an option for the 170, Dauntless and new Nantucket. Yamaha only has 2-stroke and 4-stroke offerings in this HP range, for these boats, but now Mercury has the additional option of clean, faster DFI performance. More performance/technology choices does not seem to me to be a "drawback", as others here have pointed out in the Suzuki discussions.

Or is the drawback the good old fashioned 2-strokes. You can't even get a Yamaha 225/250 2-stroke EFI, while Merc still makes them. Again, more choice is not a drawback. Even when they made one, the Merc would outperform it. Mercury had EFI's ten years before Yamaha. How about the drawback of having to take a Mercury 90, actually about 100HP and with an 18 amp alternator, on a new 170, instead of a Yamaha 90, actually about 82 HP, and with a 10 amp alternator. Not a drawback to me. Or about having to take a Merc 60, at 59 cubic inches and a 16 amp alternator as opposed to a Yamaha 60 at 52 cubinc inches and a 6 amp alternator, on a new Sport 150. It's not even necessary to bring up Mercury's 150-200 EFI V-6's. They run a lot quieter and faster than the same size Yamaha's, believe me. Mercury powers the racing, go-fast and bass boat circuits for a reason.

So now I have explained why I think having to take a Yamaha on a new Whaler would be a real "drawback".

Homey, would you please explain, at least for the benefit of those Boston Whaler factory poeple who frequent this site, with some facts if you can, as to why Mercurys, either in 4-stroke, DFI or 2-stroke technology, are such a "drawback" whne compared to Yamaha's offerings, for Boston Whaler. Or maybe I have now changed your brand loyalty?

posted 09-12-2003 12:33 AM ET (US)            

Whats really great about this site are all the opinions, experiences, and views are shared. My response to Rudyv was based on my personal opinion, and experience.(Us. Coast Guard-active duty, lifelong boat owner, (2)Whalers, and employment at 2 marinas/boat dealer)

Trafficlawyer, You said your Conquest has plenty of wood. Your statement was vague. Wood accents, stringers, or deck panels? (pursuit has wood stringers, transom, and balsa decking) I saw a 2001 Pursuit 24' transom split, and nearly ripped off. It was inspected and ruled structurely defective. Warranty covered it, Probably a rare occurrence...

lhg, I bet that Yamaha painted black costs the consumer more...Mercury is going to roll the added cost right back on the consumer. The fact that Mercury didn't have the technology to build their own high horsepower 4-stroke makes me less confident in their product...The supercharged 2.6 liter hasn't been on the market long enough to be tested yet...

I could go on and on but, its not necessary. In my opinion Yamaha makes better outboard motors than Mercury...Ask the guys that repair them...

posted 09-12-2003 02:40 PM ET (US)            

1. I didn't trash Mercury, actually I said it was a fine motor. I personally prefer Yamaha...

2. In order to get a real perspective of a brands reliability you have to ask more then 1 mechanic...

3. I wasn't looking to kill Whaler sales either. In my prior post I pointed out Whaler's 10 year hull warranty...

posted 09-14-2003 12:16 PM ET (US)            

The site should be open to all opinions, especially from those who have personal experience with a particular product. I personally would like to hear both sides and make my own decision. I also like to hear about those who had good experience with a product.

Personally, I have a 1994 Johnson 90 2 stroke on my Montauk. I have no complaints. But some day I will have to repower and I am always curious to hear opinions about various products.

From what I have heard, on this site and others, I don't think that at present I would touch any of the high pressure direct injection 2 strokes of any brand. There seems to be a lot of complaints from a number of different sources about this technology, what with powerhead failures and so on.

Resale value also tells you a lot. Some almost new engines are basically worthless due to their reputations.

posted 09-14-2003 07:44 PM ET (US)            

It has been reported that dealers like to sell Yamaha engines because the premium price they can charge for them creates more profit for the dealer. Maybe some of these guys who get on here and rave about the Yamaha engines are really dealers just trying to keep those prices high. Who really knows.

As for LHG, I really do know and can state without hesitation that he has no connection at all with Mercury, other than being from the same state that hosts Mercury's headquarters, Illinois. He has been boating for 40 years or more and has owned multiple Boston Whaler boats, all with Mercury engines on them.

Everyone is welcome to report their anecdotal experience with their particular brand of outboard. When people start painting with broader strokes it causes problems.

posted 09-14-2003 08:50 PM ET (US)            

I think, where we are now with the 2 strokes with injection etc. and 4 strokes, is good, whatever outboard you buy. The manufacturers have got it. We complain about the little things now, such as plastic parts versus brass parts. The great outboards are coming. The competition between the manufacturers is unreal. This is to our benefit. But, it's whatever you want to pay for too. ....Let's move on.

posted 09-14-2003 10:01 PM ET (US)         

The predominant reason that dealers like to sell them, Is because they work and delaers like happy customers.

posted 09-15-2003 01:02 AM ET (US)            

I would stick with Japanese power, very reliable....Huge companies like Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha. They have the money to drop into new and better technology. They lead in many electronics and manufacture all sorts of products...

posted 09-15-2003 10:09 AM ET (US)            

Boston Whaler, hmm... also American.

As for Foreign wants and the Whalers? Europeans LOVE American products.

What PJVH is not telling you is that GREECE has thousands of islands and soem very small fishing villages...
What you are not hearing is that the Greek Whaler in question is probably on one of the little islands and that is why no one has a Merc power plant. Hell the fishing boats are mainly powered my FIAT or SEAT Diesel motors.

I lived in Sicily for 5 years, The Sicilians LOVED my S-10 Chevrolet. No doubt Europeans like the Whalers, they are American and standout in a crowd.

I have a 90 HP Merc and I love it.

With respect

-Jeff

posted 09-15-2003 02:14 PM ET (US)         

You should take your anti-Mercury agenda elsewhere.
Where'd we pick up this guy, anyway?

posted 09-15-2003 03:06 PM ET (US)            

Because MERCURY was a ROMAN god! (what is the greek equivalant to Mercury? Please tell me it is not Yamaha)

I loved the times I went to Rhodes and Crete...

posted 09-15-2003 10:36 PM ET (US)            

--very low compression make easy to pull start;
--loose fitting rings with lotsa blow by so cylinder walls drenched in oil and last for ever;
--hey, it smokes a little, but that keeps the bugs off;
--not too heavy 'cuz gotta haul up from the beach every day else Pepino and the boys steal her at night;
--magneto ignition so need no battery to run her;

posted 09-16-2003 01:06 AM ET (US)            

During a brief break in my career I went to work for a boat manufacturer. The manufacturer sold outboards made by Yamaha, Mercury, and Honda. I can't recall the exact numbers, but I believe our total outboard volume was in the neighborhood of 35-50 outboards per month between the three manufacturers. At the time I was hired, the company had OEM status with Mercury, which meant that we were buying motors substantially BELOW dealer cost. By the time I left the company we were in the process of converting to OEM Yamaha. That switch, by the way, was driven by marketing and margin, not motor quality. Yamaha simply made a commitment to compete more aggressively in our market. (Mercury was relatively new to the four stroke market, and we needed a viable and popular four stroke kicker to compete with Honda. Yamaha's sustained popularity in the four stroke kicker market helped to earn our OEM business. Honda had no OEM program and was not willing to offer a competitive discount.)

I negotiated wholesale motor purchases and worked with manufacturer's representatives and customers, including retailers, on warranty support issues. In my experience ALL three of the above motor manufacturers provided VERY good motors and good warranty support. The failure/warranty return rate was EXTREMELY low for all three manufacturers. Based on my observations of failure rates, I would not hesitate to repower my boat with a motor made by ANY of the three manufacturers I worked with. I would expect similar reliability with most OMC/Suzuki motors too, I just don't have volume experience with them.

Every manufacturer will lay an occasional egg. That's especially true if the manufacturer is on the leading edge of technology and trying to stay there. Pushing the envelope, and trying to fund the research it takes to stay there, tends to net an occasional mistake. We see the same phenomenon in the auto industry - but we don't trash General Motors just because their 7.2 liter diesels were a disaster.

Mercury has made some motors that had problems requiring extensive warranty support. The same is true of Yamaha. Honda, which has a justifiably outstanding reputation for quality, has had their share of mistakes too. I have a pair of Honda 115s which were recalled because of a design flaw in the fuel injection system. The repair bill, absorbed by Honda, was over $900. None of the foregoing provides justification for trashing any of the three manufacturers, because the overwhelming majority of their motors are reliable.

Somebody recently opined that the reason fishermen in Belize bought Yamaha motors was because they couldn't afford to have a motor fail. That statement has a nice, dramatic ring to it, but it's not based in fact. The reality is that those fishermen are buying Yamaha motors because, for whatever reason, Yamaha has committed to support that market. The parts are at least somewhat available through local dealers, and the motors are sold at a price the locals can afford. That has everything to do with Yamaha's commitment to the Caribbean market, and NOTHING to do with relative motor quality.

I don't have the numbers, so this is speculation on my part, but I suspect the Country of Belize probably buys fewer outboard motors in a year than a large marina in a city like Miami - and that probably explains why Mercury/OMC/Suzuki are not falling over each other trying to get into the market.

posted 09-16-2003 04:16 AM ET (US)            

The Greek equivalent of Mercury is Hermes - like the scarves.

jimh is just plain insulting and talks like a small-towner when actually there's a big world out there. If he bothered to take a closer look at it he would discover that we are surprisingly civilised in Europe. But people like him probably want to keep this forum strictly American with no one from overseas rocking the boat, so to speak.

posted 09-16-2003 02:24 PM ET (US)            

LHG (Larry) does not "work in the trade", nor does he claim a right to exert disproportionate influence over this forum. His status and influence here are a function of the respect he has earned over time, and that is a function of his willingness to help and the time-proven quality of his advice.

People who characterize Larry as a Mercury "shill" are trying, unfairly, to depreciate the value of Larry's support for Mercury motors. His support for Mercury is based on his substantial personal experience with them. His experience should not be at all surprising, as the vast majority of Mercury motors run like a watch and provide many years of great service (as do the vast majority of Yamahas, Suzukis, etc...)

I've never met Larry, and we live half a country apart, but he's helped me with numerous Whaler projects, more than once at his expense (mailing information, etc).

posted 09-16-2003 05:42 PM ET (US)            

I believe that Mercury has had problems with the DFI technology but they are not the only ones. I’m reading a lot about Yamaha DFI problems on “thehulltruth.com” these days and they are very Yamaha biased. The Evinude problems were legendary. If anything, I am kind of mad at all of them for marketing such temperamental machines before they were ready, but I guess it’s the nature of the DFI beast. Finally, I believe that the Optis of this year are finally bullet proof from what I’ve been hearing. When they are working correctly they are great engines. You sure see a heck of a lot of them out there.

In my case, I bought a left over model from the previous year and in retrospect, I don’t think it was very good for the boat or the engines to sit for that long. It may have been a big contributor to my problems.

Anyway back to the topic at hand. The trim tabs on the bigger whalers make all the difference.

My 23 Outrage with twin 135s, weigh is about 300 lbs more than a single 225, a Full gas tank weighs about 500 lbs more than half a tank, and three large fishing buddies at the stern weigh about 600 lbs. The total extra weight is about 1400 lbs over a single engine configuration with half a tank of gas just one buddy. That kind of weight will affect the performance of the boat and the trim tabs are definitely required to offset the aforementioned stern heavy configuration. When I put the tabs down, the bow comes down and the boat knifes though the water providing a very smooth ride. If I didn’t have the tabs down, my boat would pound me like a pile driver and ride bow high. I couldn’t imagine not having trim tabs on my Whaler and I’ll bet the same holds true for the 23 Conquest and the 255 as well. When the boat is trimmed right, the gas mileage is also better because the boat is running more efficiently.

posted 09-16-2003 06:48 PM ET (US)            

I really can't give an opinon on the Mercury vs. Yammha thing. I've only owned two outboard motors in my life, they where both Mercurys. They where both under 20hp, so I really am in no place to say who makes a better motor. I'd like to try OMC power someday, but thats is not because I think "Mercury sucks", I just want to try something different.

posted 10-15-2005 02:02 PM ET (US)            

Forget about the bigger block HPDI motors....the Yam 225 4 strokes don't have the gut the Verados do....

OptiMax is tried and true...they are a superb motor....

Mercury is leading the industry now with their Verados and I don't see anyone catching them anytime soon. DTS, power steering, digital information centers; it really can't get much sweeter than that.

posted 10-17-2005 11:36 PM ET (US)         

We just got back from 3 days in Beaufort,SC had the 15' sport serviced and fished the rest of the time. Weather was superb, about 80 not a cloud in the sky and little wind but that 8'+ tide is a pain in the butt.

We're planning on being down with the 15' around 12/24 to 12/30. PS Sherri really liked that restaurant you took us too somewhere around LHP.

posted 10-24-2005 01:55 PM ET (US)            

Regarding the boat....
The 275 rides bow high unless you run tabs down somewhat at cruise. Other than that we love the boat (wish the helm chair was a bit higher as I am not 6'3" so I stand most of the time).

Regarding the engines....
The Merc 225s are definetly better sound-proofed. The Yamaha we had was a 2004 225, and the Mercs are far easier on the ears. I am not sure if there are any differences regarding fuel use, although the underpowering comment is sure a good one. Our 2004 Robalo got about 2.1 mpg under ideal fully loaded conditions, the 2003 Conquest does about 1.8 mpg; not too bad considering the boat is almost twice the weight of the Robalo. The twin 225's are the max allowed for the 275; I would not want anything less. We test ran a boat with the Verado's on them, and they are even quieter, and the digital throttle controls are amazing. Too bad you cant have that retrofit!