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New Boston Whaler 36 mold in progress!
|Author||Topic: New Boston Whaler 36 mold in progress!|
posted 08-01-2005 06:26 PM ET (US)
From what my dealer has told me, Boston Whaler is coming out with the mold for their new 36 designed for trip Verados.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat this heavy with trips because I wouldn't get performance out of it anyways and I'll be burning trip fuel. I bet it will be a tank, though.
Look forward to seeing it in the next year or two!
posted 08-01-2005 09:19 PM ET (US)
Hard to imagine BW would invest money in a 36.
There are numerous 36'ers out there that BW can't compete with.
Why chase a market for 10-15 boats per year??
posted 08-01-2005 10:40 PM ET (US)
Because every picture of a Whaler SKA boat in the newspaper or sport fishing magazine is free advertizing for Whaler. Those 15 hulls a year are ambassadors for the company that will sell a bunch of smaller boats. It also gives Merc an in to the go fast fishing crowd as they now have a chance to showcase their high tech verados in the same arena as the competition who are eating their lunch in that niche. The real question is how effective will this strategy be when the Whaler is the last one to get to the fishing grounds. With the weight penalty of the hull construction and Verados matched against the existing boats that compete in that arena, Whaler is going to really have to do something out of the ordinary (for Whaler) with that hull to get it a place in the winner's circle. BillS
posted 08-01-2005 10:48 PM ET (US)
Why assume that it will be a center console only? There is a new trend toward 36' express boats with triple outboards...look at the new Grady White 360...and I believe that Pursuit has one coming out too.
They are much faster than a similar size hull with inboards...and generally have better fuel economy. They also have considerably more interior space than an inboard-powered express. The only real drawback is not having the clean transom of an inboard for netting/gaffing fish and getting them onboard.
posted 08-02-2005 12:05 AM ET (US)
My dealer told me it is a cuddy...by which..CC...probably will start out like the 38 Fountain TE and then they will make an open...
Either way, it is going to be a pig...and if they don't redesign the hull and they make the hull similar to the 320, they're going to be dead last to the fishing grounds and weigh in...bottom line. Hopefully they make this hull design to make up for some of the weight...
Still, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole...
Like I said, 36 ft. boat, arm and leg price, trips...
Something that will make it worth the price of trips and 36 fter...speed and fishability...
I bet the 36 will be a nice boat for sure...but IMO, 32 is as high as we're going for Whaler and the next boat is out of the outboard league all together...
I love the 32, though...Whaler did a good job with it.
posted 08-02-2005 08:25 AM ET (US)
I will be running by the Edgewater plant tomorrow on the ICW. I will bring my binoculars and camera. If there's a new hull outside, I'll post a picture.
posted 08-02-2005 10:02 AM ET (US)
Money is not an issue for the boaters they're targeting with a that hull. In other words money is no object to those buyers. I boat on the Pamilico Sound (Fountain has their plant there) & you'd be surprised to c how many 32 - 38' Fountains u c on the water.
posted 08-02-2005 11:15 AM ET (US)
If they're shooting for an express with triples, that makes even less sense in the current market. For the guesstimated price of a 36 cuddy with triples, you could probably buy a Pursuit or Stamas with twin diesels that will be much more economical. BillS
posted 08-02-2005 01:34 PM ET (US)
Guys, I think you seriously underestimate this market. Whaler sells more big boats than you imagine. I know a dealer in a little Mississippi coast town that has already sold his yearly allotment of Outrage 32s. That's 4 boats that sell way over $100,000.00 each. In fact, he would love to trade out with another dealer that hasn't/won't sell out of their allotment. Trouble is, he can't find another dealer that will trade out.
So, the point is, if this little dealer is selling 4 of Whalers biggest offering, then mutiply that times all of the dealers that get these hulls... you get the picture. If just a fraction of the dealer network gets these hulls, I'll bet they sell 100 plus. You don't make expensive boats for free advertising. You make them because they make you a big profit.
As an aside. J boats, Inc. (a large sailboat manufacturer) has sold over 300 40 foot J-120s since they were introduced roughly 10 years ago. At a price tag of over $325,000.00 (almost 3x the expense of the largest Whaler) that's a lot of moolah. This is just one of over 20 models they sell and it is not anywhere near to the largest or most expensive. And this is in the sailboat market. A market that is a fraction of the size of the powerboat market.
posted 08-02-2005 03:46 PM ET (US)
I agree, my dealership has sold 12 32's this year, mine being the 13th, and another I saw being rigged for the 14th just recently.
They also sell a lot of 270s and 240s as well.
In fact, this large Whaler dealership is FRESH out of 320's and I think they've been using my boat for demos while it was being serviced.
Around here, big boats are appreciated especially during the rough winter time for sailfish and gulf stream crossings to the Bahamas.
Guess what the owner of Wrigley gum owns? Yup, a 320 with 250 XS Optimaxes. It's probably one of his 10 boats, being the smallest.
My guess is that the 36 won't sell nearly as well as the 320 and smaller models will and the 36 will not be ours either. That thing is going to be a pig just like the 320 is...
I love the 320, but the hull still needs to be redesigned because I can run through 3-4 ft. stacked chop at 30 mph, but I will get a little bit of spray and I will take a beating and won't have much of a back anymore. Anything bigger than 2-4 and the boat doesn't ride that great.
One thing I can say is that that boat is DRY.
posted 08-02-2005 05:14 PM ET (US)
The 32 or 36 BW will never make it on the SKA circuit if it can't run 30+ in solid 3'ers.
The folks with $200k+ to spend will step even higher to the Intrepids for a far superior ride.
Verado power is one thing....having the hull design to utilize the HP is another.
Keep selling Verados to mfg's with better riding hulls!!
posted 08-02-2005 06:27 PM ET (US)
BW 23, couldn't agree with you more.
The 320 nor the 36 (unless the hull is good) will never be SKA contending boats. I am upset that I did not get a much faster and better riding/efficient hull...however, not many of those hulls have the fit and finish and the 'little things' that the Whaler has...I regret getting this 320 when I'm out and need to get to the fishing grounds before sunset...when I'm running 35 and burning 30 gph...
I regret not having a Fountain that will do 45 cruise...and 60's top end...
However, the competition will sink like a rock, and none of these boats, no, not the Fountain, will compare with the 320 Whaler in fit and finish along with design on deck and the little things that make a boat nice...
Either way, our next boat will not have lawnmowers on the back of it....
I still love my 320, though...great boat!!
posted 08-02-2005 06:28 PM ET (US)
Whaler isn't building this hull to compete on the SKA circuit they're competing with Grady, Fountain, and Donzi for the comfort crowd. Besides that many of fisherman on the SKA circuit are dropping back into the 23' and under class. There is plenty of money to be won there -vs- operating expenses.
posted 08-02-2005 11:57 PM ET (US)
Whaler can't touch a Fountain or a Donzi!!
Fountains and Donzis are built around the demand for a good riding and fast stepped hull that rides on a pad of air...
posted 08-03-2005 06:20 AM ET (US)
Believe it there is a crowd of boaters buying Fountain & Donzi not because they go fast but because they are comfortable. Why do you think Whaler added the 2nd model 320 Outrage.
posted 08-03-2005 08:25 AM ET (US)
Sorry guys, my fishing trip was cancelled due to work load. We are rescheduled for the 15th. If someone can get by the factory sooner than that, please look for the mystery mold
|BOB KEMMLER JR||
posted 08-03-2005 05:36 PM ET (US)
Fishing tournaments are a perfectly good way to ruin something fun.Your 15 and don't want to be running slower than your buds,perfectly understandable.However you have a boat that will last you a lifetime in safety and comfort while they go through a few of those faster rigs
posted 08-04-2005 12:50 PM ET (US)
Good point. When you've got a dealer or factory sponsorship, you're likley replacing the rig every two years. Hard to assess overall long term durability in those circumstances. BillS
posted 08-08-2005 06:36 PM ET (US)
Word is that this thread is all baloney, and no such boat is in the works.
But I am curious why some here think that Contender, Intrepid and Sea Vee are superior v-hulled riding boats to a Whaler, foot by foot. Isn't a "V" a "V"? Do they have greater deadrise and less stability?
Fountain - The company that sells so many boats that Mercury had to bail them out of a bankruptcy. Recently Brunswick took them over. Seems like Donzi was in bankruptcy also not too long ago and ended up as part of Proline
posted 08-08-2005 06:48 PM ET (US)
Actually, word is that no mold yet exists...but a "larger boat" is in the works. That directly from the mouth of a person who ought to know.
posted 08-09-2005 05:22 PM ET (US)
Come on, this is from (if we believe his profile) a 15 year old kid who got mommy to buy him a 320 Outrage. And now he is sorry he didn't get a Donzi.
posted 08-09-2005 10:29 PM ET (US)
Correct, there is no real MOLD that is OUT yet, HOWEVER, maybe I didn't word this out right, but, the mold is in the WORKS and will obviously take a couple of years of evolution and to develop. Either way, I doubt my dealer would make this up being a highly regarded master dealer along with being one of the major Whaler dealers in the country.
And for the comment about me and having my mommy build me a 320, I thank her for that and take care of the boat like I own it. Your comment far suprassed any immaturity I conduct myself with on this forum and therefore I regard it as something that is not even worth wasting my time over.
posted 08-10-2005 09:20 AM ET (US)
More big boats? Screw the big gas guzzlers. This is the worst time to be building that kind of behemoth. When are they going to come out with their 150 center console?!?
posted 08-10-2005 11:18 AM ET (US)
My comments comparing the Whaler to the other brands had nothing to do with ride, but everything to do with Speed. If you can't keep up speedwise in a SKA tournament, you are not very competitive. Those purpose built tournament boats sacrifice comfort (narrow beams and wet rides) to obtain max speed and be first to the buouy to catch bait, and first to the break to start trolling. BillS
posted 08-10-2005 11:44 AM ET (US)
I agree with you Bill. Has nothing to do with the hull shape or ride, but speed. While they may look like a SKA boat, the 320 or hypothetical 360 are not SKA competitive. The 320 is just too heavy and the 360 is not likely to be a lightweight in its class.
posted 08-10-2005 12:23 PM ET (US)
While I don't have the same regard for anything Donzi as TightlinesPE does, you should give him a break. From all his prior posts on this and other forums, he seems like a good kid. At 15 years old he has real blue water experience on the 320 Outrage and I appreciate his candor and enthusiasm for the Whaler brand. You may not agree with him on certain subjects, but at least afford him the same courtesy you would extend to any adult on this forum.
posted 08-10-2005 02:37 PM ET (US)
If a 36-foot outboard offshore boat is going to be made by Boston Whaler, I do not believe it has not reached the stage where actual production mold tooling is being made. There may be a concept boat drawn up and being looked over.
Based on previous attempts to build larger and heavier offshore boats with inboard motors, I would not be surprised to find that a new 36-foot boat would avoid that route and instead be designed for outboard power. Building outboard powered boats has always been Boston Whaler's main expertise, and attempts to enter the inboard boat market have not been, in the main, hugely successful.
Re the 150 Center Console: I have a strong belief you will see this boat in the 2006 Boston Whaler catalogue, probably on the way to your dealer as we speak. The actual boats will probably not be in production for some months.
posted 08-10-2005 03:56 PM ET (US)
Nobody had mentioned BW's arch competitor Grady White. They have a 33 express, that sells in the mid $300,000 range as fast as they can make them.
BW can make 2 305 Conquests per week and the last time I checked, the boats were back ordered almost a year.
A 36 express with comfortable accomodations would likely sell very well and provide a triple captive transome spaces for Verados as well as give them a bigger boat than Grady White.
A 15 foot center console might appeal to classic Whaler types, but the profit is a few thousand dollars a boat and it would compete with 2 or 3 other Whaler products.
There is plenty of competition in the SKA go fast center console market. Brunswick already has Fountain. Why would they want turn a sheep into a goat and put a slow BW in that market place?
Most of the 30 to 40 foot boats now made are outboard powered. As far as cost is concerned, if BW can put a 365 Conquest out the door for under $400,000, it would represent a good value compared to a 35 Cabo which lists for nearly $600,000.
posted 08-10-2005 04:39 PM ET (US)
Let me give you my opinion on the 320 ride. I've run this boat in anything from 6 inch seas to 4 foot chop..so far.
It rides out nice and will take, chew up, and spit out anything under 4 foot, but getting up over 4 foot starts to beat the living death out of you (well, not that bad)..it rides out...so/so...and is pretty dry...but there are sacrifices with a wide beam and hard reversed chine...I actually ran with a 25 Whitewater out of the inlet and I got spanked. He told me he got up to 60 mph and the seas were about 2-3 and he was riding out NO PROBLEM.
Here also is another thing that we can discuss...
A Fountain (fit and finish doesn't compare to BW, in my opinion) is a very heavy boat as well. Well, a Fountain will outrun me by a mile...why is it heavy and still fast?
Hull design. Reggie knows what he is doing with his stepped hulls but I believe Contender and SeaVee build their hulls relatively lighter and SeaVee will flare it's bow a little...
I rode a 38 Fountain LX yesterday with trip Optis and bottom paint with growth on the lower units...we hit 55 mph and this is one heavy boat. I'm not saying Fountain or SeaVee or anything of those companies are BETTER than BW, they build more high performance hulls. Fountain hulls are cored too and glassed as thick as BW is. Hull design, once again.
Either way, even though it is no speed demon and doesn't bust through 4-6 like a 34 Fountain with trips will...I like the little things it has to offer.
I just got finished waxing the entire interior deck and topsides - took me about 5 hours and hull sides are tomorrow. Time to go fishing tonight.
posted 08-10-2005 05:08 PM ET (US)
One comment on observations of how other boats are riding when you're alongside them.
I can now say for a fact that the grass is always greener on someone else's boat.
I was running back from Beaver Island (31 miles out in lake Michigan) in my 18 last weekend alongside Cidada in his 18. I'm running beside him in 2-3-4 footers, and I'm scratching my head. Yeah, both boats caught good air several times, but in general, he appeared to be riding much better than I was. Same boat same conditions. His ride looked positively marvelous compared to the time I was having, using my knees as shock absorbers.
Tough to make a direct comparison - that guy might have been riding 60MPH and been at the edge of sanity....just a thought.
I've appreciated your thoughts on the 320. Would be interested to see a 360 Express from Whaler.
posted 08-10-2005 05:21 PM ET (US)
I would love to see one come out, as well...
I think at that point....diesel motors...but BW is looking at trips for this...supposedly.
posted 08-10-2005 05:43 PM ET (US)
First of all, the "320" is 29'-6" hull with 30" built in engine setback bracket, or something close to that. It is not a true 32 footer in the sense of a traditional transomed boat like the classic Outrages. The 270 is 25' hull, and the 240 is a 22' hull.
Secondly, it used to be that BW's foam hull process had some limitations on boat size. Is anybody sure that they can reasonably make a 36' foamed hull, which would have to be called a "390"? I read many times that the older 31 Whaler was pushing the limits in length and beam for cast foam technology. Remember the 35 Defiance? No fully foamed Whaler hull
posted 08-14-2005 11:50 AM ET (US)
Grady just announced a 39 foot (length overall) express cuddy with Triple outboards. I bet a similar configuration Whaler will be coming shortly. BillS
posted 08-14-2005 07:56 PM ET (US)
39 with trips is just overkill now....might as well buy that 40 ft. with diesels and step up another 100K...
posted 08-14-2005 08:03 PM ET (US)
A 35 or 36 footer sounds big to us Wahler drivers, but to a guy looking to trade down from a big sportfisher, it's a no brainer. I know several people that are downsizing to something a little more economical, and something that will get used more often. Something that will still get to the canyons and back in a day or two. Face it, most people don't spend much time sleeping on the boat; why push that big, plush cabin and staterooms around, when we spend all the time in the cockpit fighting fish...
That's the crowd the big Whalers or Grady's are marketed to..
posted 08-14-2005 09:59 PM ET (US)
My neighbor's grandfather did just that. He sold his 65+ft Ocean and downsized to a 305 Conquest and had over a $million in change left over. He wasn't getting enough use out of the Ocean and wanted something less expensive to maintain. I'm hoping he wants to downsize again. I'll trade him my 170 MT ;)
posted 08-15-2005 10:01 AM ET (US)
Back of a napkin gymnastics using 2005 Boston Whaler and Mercury catalogue spec data: Swamped capacity for an open 36' LOA hull extrapolates into the 3000 - 3500 category. One 200 - 275 HP Verado specs out at about 650 lbs, 3x that would be 2000 lbs. dry. Now you have just 1000-1500 lbs. for rigging, fluids, passengers, gear, etc. While a sharper pencil is required, 36' appears to represent quite a challenge and perhaps an outer bound for BW unsinkability using current design and manufacturing technology. Enough now, back to rocket science.
posted 08-15-2005 02:45 PM ET (US)
Another engineering challenge at that length will be structural rigidity. Something will have to be added to undo the added flex the boat will have if Whaler maintains comparable hull thickness to the 305 with their foam sandwich construction. The issue will likely be flexing along the length and torsional twisting.
Any structural engineers care to comment?
posted 05-24-2006 02:24 PM ET (US)
with rising fuel costs it is time for a BW 36 cuddy with yanmar diesels
posted 05-25-2006 08:46 AM ET (US)
If Whaler were going to build a diesel sportfish, it would make sense for them to utilize the new azimuthing pod drive system they have out. I believe that system uses Cummins motors. Cummins are low speed diesels (3000 rpm top) vs Yanmars which are high speed motors (4000 rpm). I much prefer low speed diesels for Marine use for their greater longevity and lower sound levels. BillS
posted 05-25-2006 12:19 PM ET (US)
The 31' was a pig of biblical proportions, an overgrown Outrage with an equally overgrown deck. It had a massive quantity of foam poured in and a LOT of foam that wanted OUT. NOW. The first shot scared the you-know-what out of most of us standing there. Snap, crackle, pop, pop, POP!!! I was waiting for the toggles to start stretching lol.
So as far as foaming goes, with a few changes in procedure it's probably not the end of the line length-wise. That 31's foam shot would probably have filled another 5' of boat at least. It's mostly a matter of getting the foam to flow evenly throughout. The designers just have to use their heads when laying out the inner/outer molds, perhaps a pour hole at each end of the mold and smaller shots to cover the distance to the center, perhaps just tilting it enough on one end will work, who knows? Whaler foams have changed a little since those days and I'm sure procedures have also, but I see no reason that it can't be done into the 34/36' range with a little forethought and experimentation. And yes, stronger fabrics will probably be needed on the bottom, depending on how much open space or unsupported "flat panels" there are, such as the area under the fuel tank. Molded in stringers, wings, and beams help cut these "unsupported" areas down but are not practical in every situation. I'm ALMOST sure they're smart enough to figure it out, we'll see....
posted 05-25-2006 02:26 PM ET (US)
Whaler had the 34 Defiance for 2 or 3 years, complete with the Yanmars, as an option. The only problem was that a 34 Pursuit could be had for about 100k less money
posted 05-26-2006 12:29 AM ET (US)
I have to observe that the prediction of a new 36-foot model in the works is now about nine months old, and there is still no new boat announcement.
It would not surprise me that Boston Whaler might have something in the works for this size range. There are several reasons for my belief.
There seems to be an ineluctable urge for boat builders to progress toward making larger boats. This is probably motivated by both profit, and here I assume that there is more margin in a larger boat than in a smaller, and by some combination of hubris and pride. The good folks at Boston Whaler have tried this before, with a 34-foot express cruiser with twin inboard engines. It would be natural to try it again.
A 36-foot outboard powered boat is much more practical in 2006 than ever before due to the 275-HP (or higher power) outboard motor. Triple outboard boats are now fairly common. Boston Whaler has always been primarily a maker of outboard powered boats, so there has never been a better time to design a 36-foot hull for outboard power.
The mandatory tie-in sale of Mercury Verado outboard motors makes the concept of a 36-foot Boston Whaler more attractive than ever. What better way to sell more 275-HP Verado motors! Also, the advanced digital throttle and shift controls which provide for shadow control of the center motor make the Verado a natural choice for triple engine installations. There is synergy for Boston Whaler and Mercury in making a triple-outboard boat.
The market for boats and motors in general has been a little soft lately, but the market for larger boats and more luxury boats has been surprisingly strong. It must be that people with disposable income for $300,000 boats do not feel any economic tightening like the people with income for $14,000 boats have in the past few years.
A larger hull from Boston Whaler could also be converted into a commercial and government division hull. I have heard some rumor that Brunswick Commercial and Goverment Products is going to stop using the older 27-foot Whaler hull as a basis for their larger commercial boats, and an entirely new hull will be developed for this application. This could be the start of a new series of larger commercial hulls. Whaler lost a lot of orders to the SAFE boat people. They would like to get some of that business back, and a new big boat might be one way.
So, for all of those reasons, it would not surprise me to discover that the door will roll up one afternoon down in Edgewater and a new 36-foot will come out of the prototype shop with three Verado engines on the transom.
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