170 Montauk: Re-Power with Fuel Injection Motor

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Author Topic:   170 Montauk: Re-Power with Fuel Injection Motor

whaler1234 posted 05-20-2008 07:16 PM ET (US)
I am looking for some advice re the motor on my 2004 MONTAUK. It has a 2004 Mercury 90-HP four-cycle carburetor motor. I'm fed up with having to rebuild the carburetors every year if I store the boat more than six months. I always store the boat [with fuel that has been] treated [with fuel additives] and I do have a RACOR filter in [the fuel] line. I know there are many owners with similar [problems] in this forum.
If I re-power with a new fuel-injected Mercury 90, will it give me fuel related problems after storing for six to eight months [with gasoline] treated with stabil and quickleen?
I'd like to hear the experiences new 170 owners have been thru with their fuel injected motors.
Thanks.
contender posted 05-20-2008 09:05 PM ET (US)
You think that fuel injection will not get clogged. The problem is not starting the engine, old gas sits and turns to varnish. I do not have an FI engine but I think you would have the same problem...good luck
whaler1234 posted 05-20-2008 09:53 PM ET (US)
I don't have any first hand experience with the current motors [with fuel injection], so I don't know for sure.
I have two small six-gallon tanks which I empty out after long periods of storage. I empty out the racor as well.
I have taken every preventative measure except for running the motor every month. I would hope the motor would run fine for 6 mo storage periods.
I would like to know if the F.I. motors are less prone to getting clogged fuel systems. That would be enough to justify my repower.
Thanks,
Marsh posted 05-20-2008 10:44 PM ET (US)
One account does not necessarily prove anything, but my [fuel-injection] Mercury 115 sat in my garage from September 2007 to March 2008, then started without incident, sputtered slightly after planing off, then has run flawlessly ever since.
This was with a 1/4-FULL tank of untreated E10 gasoline and ethanol blend in my on-board Moeller tank for the duration. I have since filled my tank with fresh E10, and it continues to run normally.
YMMV
Marsh
jimh posted 05-21-2008 12:15 AM ET (US)
Fuel systems with carburetors are vented to the atmosphere in the carburetor. During storage the fuel in the carburetor tends to evaporate, leaving behind some residue which causes problems. In fuel systems with fuel-injection, the fuel system is not directly vented to the atmosphere in the injectors, so fuel does not tend to evaporate from the injectors. (The fuel system is vented in the vapor separator, but generally there is a large volume of fuel in the vapor separator, and there are not small orifices in the vapor separator to become clogged.)
If there is debris in the fuel and no filtering is in place, debris will cause problems in a fuel system, both for fuel-injectors or carburetors. Typically, debris in the fuel was not a problem. Fuel residues from evaporation has been more of a problem.
The 90-HP Mercury four-cycle motors using the Yamaha power head and multiple carburetors have been frequently reported as having problems with fuel clogging in the carburetors. This is believed to be due to the use of four carburetors, one for each cylinder, and correspondingly small size orifices (or "jets") in the idle fuel-air mixture passages. The small orifices seem to be prone to clogging.
The new Mercury 90-HP FOURSTROKE motors are an entirely different motor from your 2004 model. The new all-Mercury 90-HP motors have not been reported as having any problems with their fuel systems.
fishinchips posted 05-21-2008 12:25 AM ET (US)
Have you tried putting in quickleen in your fuel everytime you fuel up?
I really helps me out. After I started doing that, I have no more problems.

Ken
whaler1234 posted 05-21-2008 04:31 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the responses guys. Jim, after reading your explanation, I recalled you or someone else had mentioned this quite a while back.
Everytime I take off the cover and look at the four carbs I shake my head thinking... way too many things that can go wrong. Not knocking carbs cos I loved my dellorto carbs on my old rx-7, but just ain't working for me here.
Oh well... I'm open to make/model suggestions on a 90HP repower (fuel injected of course) :)
Thanks
gbcbu posted 05-21-2008 05:49 AM ET (US)
For the first time I had my 90 HP Mercury 4 stroke EFI winterized from September to March. The boat is an '06 model year that I purchased in March of '07. Before putting the boat in the water this season I hooked up the earmuffs and started her up. Absolutely no problem. I used the 4 or so gallons of gas left over for my lawn mower and snow thrower. When I took delivery of the boat I was instructed to use a gas additive by Startron which I use religiously.
I hope you raise hell and try to exercise any warranty you may have. Mercury should at least, IMHO, offer a huge discount to re-power. If you do re-power are you considering going to the newer controls? I'd love to switch over.
Good luck
jimh posted 05-21-2008 08:51 AM ET (US)
You probably read my similar comments (regarding fuel injection systems versus carburetors) in
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015235.html
That is a good discussion regarding the many problems reported with the Mercury 90-HP carburetor engine and the many odd rationalizations which have been proposed to explain them. I think you will find it interesting reading if you are contemplating retiring your four-year-old Mercury outboard motor due to chronic problems with its carburetors. It contains links to other discussions about the problems in the Mercury 90-HP carburetor engine as reported by multiple owners.
Also, the advice you received urging you to seek some remedy from Mercury (for the cost of replacing your four-year-old Mercury motor) is, in my opinion, good advice. You may find that Mercury is willing to cooperate with you and ease the cost burden of replacing that four-year-old motor, as long as you get another Mercury, of course.
The new Mercury motor, the motor they currently call a 90-HP EFI FOURSTROKE (but is completely different than the Yamaha motor they used to call the 90-HP EFI FOURSTROKE in c.2006), is earning a good reputation with regard to the fuel system. (We call this the Veradito motor, to help identify it more easily.) The Veradito would be a good choice for replacement of your current Mercury motor because I believe that most of the rigging and electrical harnesses on your boat would be compatible with the new motor. If you changed to a different brand of engine on your boat you would likely not be able to easily re-use the existing engine wiring harness and other elements of the rigging.
Casco Bay Outrage posted 05-21-2008 11:44 AM ET (US)
123-
Before you go and spend $6,000+, I strongly suggest you do some searches and read the threads on the engine.
I do recall running Quikclean and other similar products made a big difference.
Are you draining the carbs when not in use?
Whether or not an additive will solve your issue, only you can know.
EFI does get clogged. I just spent $500++ getting my entire fuel rail, injectors, VST and associated parts cleaned.
Nothing on a boat or engine is 100% turnkey.
andygere posted 05-21-2008 12:29 PM ET (US)
For what it's worth, I did not run my E-TEC 200 from mid October until May 3. It spent all winter in a wet slip with a full (77 gallon) tank of fuel. I use BRP 2+4 fuel conditioner for regular fuel fills, and used it at the higher dose for preserving the gasoline with the last fill up of the season. I used the self winterization feature after the last run of the season.
I just returned from 3 days of boating, where I burned about 40 gallons of that fuel. The motor started on the first click every time, and performed flawlessly. No problems with old fuel here.
The point is that if properly preserved, the fuel should work just fine, and constantly clogging carburators seems abnormal. If the appropriate fuel filter is used, there should not be any particles in the fuel that reaches the carbs.
andygere posted 05-21-2008 12:36 PM ET (US)
To continue the comparison, I also have a 2-stroke 15 h.p. Mercury outboard on the boat. I winterized that one in October as well, using fogging oil sprayed into the carbs, applying the oil until the motor eventually stalled out. I also sprayed some into the spark plug holes, and hand cranked the motor a few times to lube up the cylinder walls. In May, this motor fired up after about 20 seconds of cranking. It sputtered and smoked for a few minutes, then settled down to a smooth idle. I ran it for a while under load, and it performed as normal. I did not drain the carbs, but I did run the motor with preserved fuel when I layed it up. I had no problem with the 1989 vintage carbs on this little motor clogging up, nor have I in the years that I've owned it. Again, it seems like the carbs in Whaler 1234's outboard have a flaw. As I recall, WT replaced his carb'd 4-stroke Mercury 90 with a fuel injected model for the same reasons.
Feejer posted 05-21-2008 12:43 PM ET (US)
05 90hp 4 stroke EFI here. Did normal winterizing in October, fired right up smooth and strong in April
Barney posted 05-21-2008 09:47 PM ET (US)
Well I've got one of those.
Long time since I've posted. I've got the same 2004 Mercury carburetor outboard on a 2003 170 Montauk that I bought 5 years ago. The Racor was the ticket for my fuel problems.
There are three options for 6 month storage of that outboard:
a) Put a valve in the fuel line and run the outboard dry. b) Run the outboard every month to 6 weeks. (My preference)
c) Disassemble and clean the carburetors every year.
Jim

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Author	Topic: 170 Montauk: Re-Power with Fuel Injection Motor
whaler1234	posted 05-20-2008 07:16 PM ET (US) I am looking for some advice re the motor on my 2004 MONTAUK. It has a 2004 Mercury 90-HP four-cycle carburetor motor. I'm fed up with having to rebuild the carburetors every year if I store the boat more than six months. I always store the boat [with fuel that has been] treated [with fuel additives] and I do have a RACOR filter in [the fuel] line. I know there are many owners with similar [problems] in this forum. If I re-power with a new fuel-injected Mercury 90, will it give me fuel related problems after storing for six to eight months [with gasoline] treated with stabil and quickleen? I'd like to hear the experiences new 170 owners have been thru with their fuel injected motors. Thanks.
contender	posted 05-20-2008 09:05 PM ET (US) You think that fuel injection will not get clogged. The problem is not starting the engine, old gas sits and turns to varnish. I do not have an FI engine but I think you would have the same problem...good luck
whaler1234	posted 05-20-2008 09:53 PM ET (US) I don't have any first hand experience with the current motors [with fuel injection], so I don't know for sure. I have two small six-gallon tanks which I empty out after long periods of storage. I empty out the racor as well. I have taken every preventative measure except for running the motor every month. I would hope the motor would run fine for 6 mo storage periods. I would like to know if the F.I. motors are less prone to getting clogged fuel systems. That would be enough to justify my repower. Thanks,
Marsh	posted 05-20-2008 10:44 PM ET (US) One account does not necessarily prove anything, but my [fuel-injection] Mercury 115 sat in my garage from September 2007 to March 2008, then started without incident, sputtered slightly after planing off, then has run flawlessly ever since. This was with a 1/4-FULL tank of untreated E10 gasoline and ethanol blend in my on-board Moeller tank for the duration. I have since filled my tank with fresh E10, and it continues to run normally. YMMV Marsh
jimh	posted 05-21-2008 12:15 AM ET (US) Fuel systems with carburetors are vented to the atmosphere in the carburetor. During storage the fuel in the carburetor tends to evaporate, leaving behind some residue which causes problems. In fuel systems with fuel-injection, the fuel system is not directly vented to the atmosphere in the injectors, so fuel does not tend to evaporate from the injectors. (The fuel system is vented in the vapor separator, but generally there is a large volume of fuel in the vapor separator, and there are not small orifices in the vapor separator to become clogged.) If there is debris in the fuel and no filtering is in place, debris will cause problems in a fuel system, both for fuel-injectors or carburetors. Typically, debris in the fuel was not a problem. Fuel residues from evaporation has been more of a problem. The 90-HP Mercury four-cycle motors using the Yamaha power head and multiple carburetors have been frequently reported as having problems with fuel clogging in the carburetors. This is believed to be due to the use of four carburetors, one for each cylinder, and correspondingly small size orifices (or "jets") in the idle fuel-air mixture passages. The small orifices seem to be prone to clogging. The new Mercury 90-HP FOURSTROKE motors are an entirely different motor from your 2004 model. The new all-Mercury 90-HP motors have not been reported as having any problems with their fuel systems.
fishinchips	posted 05-21-2008 12:25 AM ET (US) Have you tried putting in quickleen in your fuel everytime you fuel up? I really helps me out. After I started doing that, I have no more problems. Ken
whaler1234	posted 05-21-2008 04:31 AM ET (US) Thanks for the responses guys. Jim, after reading your explanation, I recalled you or someone else had mentioned this quite a while back. Everytime I take off the cover and look at the four carbs I shake my head thinking... way too many things that can go wrong. Not knocking carbs cos I loved my dellorto carbs on my old rx-7, but just ain't working for me here. Oh well... I'm open to make/model suggestions on a 90HP repower (fuel injected of course) :) Thanks
gbcbu	posted 05-21-2008 05:49 AM ET (US) For the first time I had my 90 HP Mercury 4 stroke EFI winterized from September to March. The boat is an '06 model year that I purchased in March of '07. Before putting the boat in the water this season I hooked up the earmuffs and started her up. Absolutely no problem. I used the 4 or so gallons of gas left over for my lawn mower and snow thrower. When I took delivery of the boat I was instructed to use a gas additive by Startron which I use religiously. I hope you raise hell and try to exercise any warranty you may have. Mercury should at least, IMHO, offer a huge discount to re-power. If you do re-power are you considering going to the newer controls? I'd love to switch over. Good luck
jimh	posted 05-21-2008 08:51 AM ET (US) You probably read my similar comments (regarding fuel injection systems versus carburetors) in http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/015235.html That is a good discussion regarding the many problems reported with the Mercury 90-HP carburetor engine and the many odd rationalizations which have been proposed to explain them. I think you will find it interesting reading if you are contemplating retiring your four-year-old Mercury outboard motor due to chronic problems with its carburetors. It contains links to other discussions about the problems in the Mercury 90-HP carburetor engine as reported by multiple owners. Also, the advice you received urging you to seek some remedy from Mercury (for the cost of replacing your four-year-old Mercury motor) is, in my opinion, good advice. You may find that Mercury is willing to cooperate with you and ease the cost burden of replacing that four-year-old motor, as long as you get another Mercury, of course. The new Mercury motor, the motor they currently call a 90-HP EFI FOURSTROKE (but is completely different than the Yamaha motor they used to call the 90-HP EFI FOURSTROKE in c.2006), is earning a good reputation with regard to the fuel system. (We call this the Veradito motor, to help identify it more easily.) The Veradito would be a good choice for replacement of your current Mercury motor because I believe that most of the rigging and electrical harnesses on your boat would be compatible with the new motor. If you changed to a different brand of engine on your boat you would likely not be able to easily re-use the existing engine wiring harness and other elements of the rigging.
Casco Bay Outrage	posted 05-21-2008 11:44 AM ET (US) 123- Before you go and spend $6,000+, I strongly suggest you do some searches and read the threads on the engine. I do recall running Quikclean and other similar products made a big difference. Are you draining the carbs when not in use? Whether or not an additive will solve your issue, only you can know. EFI does get clogged. I just spent $500++ getting my entire fuel rail, injectors, VST and associated parts cleaned. Nothing on a boat or engine is 100% turnkey.
andygere	posted 05-21-2008 12:29 PM ET (US) For what it's worth, I did not run my E-TEC 200 from mid October until May 3. It spent all winter in a wet slip with a full (77 gallon) tank of fuel. I use BRP 2+4 fuel conditioner for regular fuel fills, and used it at the higher dose for preserving the gasoline with the last fill up of the season. I used the self winterization feature after the last run of the season. I just returned from 3 days of boating, where I burned about 40 gallons of that fuel. The motor started on the first click every time, and performed flawlessly. No problems with old fuel here. The point is that if properly preserved, the fuel should work just fine, and constantly clogging carburators seems abnormal. If the appropriate fuel filter is used, there should not be any particles in the fuel that reaches the carbs.
andygere	posted 05-21-2008 12:36 PM ET (US) To continue the comparison, I also have a 2-stroke 15 h.p. Mercury outboard on the boat. I winterized that one in October as well, using fogging oil sprayed into the carbs, applying the oil until the motor eventually stalled out. I also sprayed some into the spark plug holes, and hand cranked the motor a few times to lube up the cylinder walls. In May, this motor fired up after about 20 seconds of cranking. It sputtered and smoked for a few minutes, then settled down to a smooth idle. I ran it for a while under load, and it performed as normal. I did not drain the carbs, but I did run the motor with preserved fuel when I layed it up. I had no problem with the 1989 vintage carbs on this little motor clogging up, nor have I in the years that I've owned it. Again, it seems like the carbs in Whaler 1234's outboard have a flaw. As I recall, WT replaced his carb'd 4-stroke Mercury 90 with a fuel injected model for the same reasons.
Feejer	posted 05-21-2008 12:43 PM ET (US) 05 90hp 4 stroke EFI here. Did normal winterizing in October, fired right up smooth and strong in April
Barney	posted 05-21-2008 09:47 PM ET (US) Well I've got one of those. Long time since I've posted. I've got the same 2004 Mercury carburetor outboard on a 2003 170 Montauk that I bought 5 years ago. The Racor was the ticket for my fuel problems. There are three options for 6 month storage of that outboard: a) Put a valve in the fuel line and run the outboard dry. b) Run the outboard every month to 6 weeks. (My preference) c) Disassemble and clean the carburetors every year. Jim