2009 190 Outrage with Verado 200 - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Post-Classic Whalers
  2009 190 Outrage with Verado 200

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   2009 190 Outrage with Verado 200

Perry posted 10-08-2008 03:12 PM ET (US)
whaler.com shows the new 190 Outrage has an option for a Verado 200. The performance report doesn't show performance numbers yet for this boat/motor combination but it will be interesting to see how fast this hull will go with 200 HP.
The maximum HP for this hull will also be increased to 200 HP. I am wondering if this will also apply to older 190 Outrages and Nantuckets. Can we get a new capacity plate that shows this increase in Max HP for our older Nantuckets?
highanddry posted 10-08-2008 04:36 PM ET (US)
You, this is funny, this was argued about long ago with some of us in minority who claimed that 150 horses was adequate but that 200 would be better. Finally, just as BW increased the transom weight when the Verado became available they have now allowed for the four cylinder version of the 200 by the same magic feat. They have done nothing but to change the placard to what it should have been to begin with. No, I doubt you can get a new placard and I doubt I would care.
Kencvit posted 10-08-2008 06:17 PM ET (US)
I just checked the mercury site...and the new 4 cyl 200 is the same weight as the old 150 which is 510 lbs with a 20 inch shaft, the nantucket/outrage takes the 25, so i`m guessing that adds 20 pds...so thats how they do it.
The 6 cyl verado with a 25 inch shaft is a whopping 635 pds.With the verado 6 you`d have water coming in your scuppers.
Now if mercury could shave 100 lbs off the 150 verado, then they`d have something great.
I think the current 150 verado is heavy for the outrage
I have the yamaha 150 at 466lbs (45 lighter than is Verado is heavy)
the optimax 135-175 all weigh in the same at 430 lbs,a much better weight for the nantucket/outrage, but a louder engine.
This could be in its own thread....but I wonder if in 5-10 years the same hp motors will be 100 lbs or significantly less weight?
chopbuster posted 10-08-2008 06:43 PM ET (US)
Speaking of alternatives;
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US
Buckda posted 10-08-2008 06:55 PM ET (US)
High - "I doubt I would care"?? Well which is it - would you care or not? LOL
Anyway...I agree with you - I don't think that you have very good prospects for getting Whaler to retroactively change the placard..but in a year or so, you may be able to order a "replacement" placard for your 190 Outrage that would have the new information on it.
As was discussed in earlier threads, this reveals how close the relationship is between Whaler and Mercury. Not that it is a surprise - we already suspected as much, however, this just tips the hand and gives us some confirmation.
I'm also interested to see the revised performance numbers with the 200 HP on this hull. I was one who agreed from the beginning that it would benefit from the higher HP rating and who wondered at the reasons/rationale behind the decision not to rate it higher.
chopbuster posted 10-08-2008 07:30 PM ET (US)
Just a thought and may well be off topic but this senario has happened.
Should one have the unfortunate experience of a boating accident and local law enforcement and/or your insurance company determined that the capacity plate had been switched for one not in compliance, I would not want to be in their shoes.
bluewaterpirate posted 10-08-2008 07:55 PM ET (US)
One thing for sure Whaler has beefed up the HP ratings on the new Outrage models.
The most hp you could get on the 270 Outrage was twin 225's. On the new 280 you can choose from twin 225/250/300's. The 220 Outrage is interesting in as much it has an 8' beam which is 4"s shorter than the 210 Outrage it replaced but you can buy it with a 300 hp Verado. The 250 Outrage has a 9 foot beam and the 240 it replaced has an 8'6" beam.
The other interesting aspect is the new hull designs more deadrise at the transom. 21 - 23 degrees
highanddry posted 10-08-2008 08:47 PM ET (US)
I think they are increasing horsepower across the line on significant models and along with their new Gen X look on the bottom end is intended to counter the widely held belief that Whalers are old men boats for the blue blazer crowd.
As to the data plate, if I were to build a boat in my garage as I have built airplanes in my garage exactly who would tell me what engine I was required to install on it? I could build an airplane in my garage and install a Mr. Fusion it it is I wanted to, I imagine there is a way to install a 200 on my Nantucket, heck, I just change the deacals out, they don't know.
continuousdave posted 10-13-2008 12:52 PM ET (US)
Does anyone still have the performece spec sheets from the whaler website before they just launched the new models. I'm looking for the specs on the 190 outrage. Specifically, I'm curious about the speed, fuel efficiency, etc for the Optimax 135 and Opti 150 vs the Verado 150, etc. They seemed to have take the performace spec sheets off for the Optimax engines and now just pose the Verados. Thanks
Dave
Perry posted 10-16-2008 10:08 PM ET (US)
Boston Whaler has the performance data now on their website for the 200 Verado on the 190 Outrage and it shows slower acceleration than the 135 Verado but a top speed of 51.2 MPH.
I was expecting closer to 55 MPH since I have seen 46+ MPH on my boat with a BF135 and others here claim 50 MPH with 150 HP Yamaha and Honda 4 strokes on their Nantuckets.
Still good performance and economy for the 200 Verado. 5.8 MPG at 24.7 MPH cruise speed is impressive.
Perry posted 10-16-2008 10:09 PM ET (US)
Here is a link to the performance report:
http://www.whaler.com/site_media/Performance_Data/190OR_EnginePerf.pdf
Sal A posted 10-18-2008 04:48 PM ET (US)
It seems that much, if not nearly all, the advantage of 50 extra ponies is negated by the weight. It would not be worth it for me.
Sal A posted 10-18-2008 05:14 PM ET (US)
I have a 175 L4 generation 1 Verado on my 205 Conquest, and it is pretty much the same engine as the 200 L4 Verado, except that the 200 gets some extra tweaking. The extra 25 ponies is tweaked by making the pressure in each cylinder higher for a longer period during the power stroke. I realize that I am cynical when I type this, but I sure hope this would not affect the longevity of the engine.
If you are considering a new 190 Outrage, you are limited to three Verados for choices (all the same block I think?). But if you are repowering your older Nantucket or Outrage, you should consider the fact that the Verados require more substantial electrical feeding. Whereas my Yamaha F150 was a workhorse, and where its dual batteries could be configured in almost any manner, with a VHF and GPS/Plotter wired in, your new Verado will require AGM batteries, and they need to be wired in a certain way. The Smartcraft can give you extraordinary information, but will hurl out fault codes like a hedge fund manager hurling out his energy stocks, should the batteries not be optimal. You will get fault codes that are baffling. You will shriek what the heck is that? You will need a good dealer.
As a fair and final note regarding this Verado, the DTS is really wonderful. The engine is smooth and responsive. I think I will enjoy mine more come springtime, and after a winter of going-through, I'll be more confident in mine. So I guess I am saying that the engine is not simple at all, and I am the type that would sacrifice some features and smoothness for reliability.
CAP1 posted 10-18-2008 09:47 PM ET (US)
As I have only been a lurker at CW for a while, I will only note what I know from 2+ years of Verado use/experience. If you have batteries that meet Merc specs, AND you have a properly wired electrical system - dedicated starting battery, and separate dedicated battery for your house load - you will not have electrical issues, nor faults from electrical related issues. If you have a single engine application, you need at least 2 batteries. If you have 2 engines, you need at least 3 batteries. And, they must be wired in such a way so as to isolate/dedicate a battery to do nothing but start the engine.
Another must is to properly maintain your batteries when your boat is not in use. Connect a 3 stage smart type charger to your battery whenever they are not in use and your batteries will give you a number of good years of trouble-free service.
From much reading on BW wiring, there are apparently at least some models not wired per Merc requirement from the factory. If you are repowering a BW with a Verado, you need to meet the Merc requirements for the Verado engine of your choice, both in battery type and rating, and in wiring configuration.
Thanks,
imko posted 10-19-2008 09:34 AM ET (US)
In this performance report the dry weight for the Outrage 190 with 200 hp is higher.
The engines 135, 150 , 200 are the same weight. Maybe the new Outrage 190 is heavier / stronger than the old one?

highanddry posted 10-19-2008 12:51 PM ET (US)
No,it is the same boat, everyone thought the same thong when they upped the transom weight---no, it is the same boat. Hades man, it is already HEAVY for a 19 foot boat at over 2100 pounds.
seabob4 posted 10-21-2008 08:02 PM ET (US)
Sal,
No offense intended, but you do not need AGM batteries with Verados. What you do need are 800 CCA. We use Exide Nautilus. But, as you said, the key to the whole DTS/Smartcraft system is HEALTHY voltage. Always hook up your charger after a day out on the water. It will save you a lot of grief.
glen e posted 10-21-2008 09:31 PM ET (US)
merc is now requiring AGM's for verados - see the bulletin...or call 920-929-5040 and ask...both 4 cyl and 6 cyl....
fourdfish posted 10-27-2008 10:32 PM ET (US)
OK--Let me get this straight! Mercury is now requiring that all 4 & 6 cyl Verados must be run with AGM batteries.
REQUIRE! That means no warranty if run with any other kind of battery??? NOT RECOMMEND, REQUIRE?????
fourdfish posted 10-28-2008 06:13 PM ET (US)
Since glen did not answer my post I think a thread should be started on the AGM-Verado post of his!
glen e posted 10-28-2008 09:08 PM ET (US)
willnot joust with f**k face here - he does not care about the asnwer, just wants to start a fight...call merc and ask if anyone cares about his question....
fourdfish posted 10-29-2008 06:36 AM ET (US)
Same old foul mouth, same old lady in heat attitude.
Requiring an AGM battery is indeed a revelation!
boatdryver posted 10-29-2008 09:17 AM ET (US)
My 2007 200 Dauntless/175 HP Gen I Verado came with two conventional group 24 lead acid batteries and a 1-2-All-Off type Perko switch.
I have had zero electrical problems. I keep the boat in the water with no charger and use it at least every 3 weeks, usually weekly, and alternate between battery #1 and #2, switching to Off when not in use.
When these batteries need replacing I'll go to AGM, but I'm not changing now.
Is the new requirement for AGM batteries to reduce electrical problems for Verados which sit a longer time between usage without attached chargers? Did it arise out of the experience with 6 cylinder Verados which have power steering which uses a lot of electrical power?

JimL
glen e posted 10-29-2008 02:03 PM ET (US)
this change was indeed for those that let them sit or do not use a charger. It is not retroactive and is only for new verados delivered after 6/09 or so.
RonB posted 11-03-2008 09:03 PM ET (US)
I made the switch that Glen mentions, removing my single Group 24 lead acid battery for an AGM from Cabelas. With my Verado running with my lead acid battery, the voltage meter was reading 12.4 Volts, with the AGM Battery, it reads 14.2. Over the winter, I am adding a second battery as CAP1 recommends as I feel that a single battery configuration with the group 24 lead acid battery is a cheap set-up for a boat that cost me an arm and a leg. My previous Whaler, a 2000 18 Outrage came with dual batteries, I was disappointed that Whaler/Whaler dealers seem to be cutting corners with the 190 Outrage at least in the battery department.
Ron
imko posted 11-07-2008 01:54 PM ET (US)
Has someone asked Boston Whaler if it's possible to get a new capacity plate for the Outrage 190 / Nantucket?
In Holland you must have a new plate for the insurance company.
Regards,
Imko

imko posted 03-07-2009 08:14 AM ET (US)
The dealer told me that it is not possible to get a new
capacity plate for the Outrage 190 (2007). The max hp stays 150 for my rig and for the insurance company....
JoeyP posted 03-07-2009 11:15 PM ET (US)
What makes that 200 so much better than the 150? Is there any measurable fuel economy with the 150 over the 200? That speed issue has me wondering. In my 08 190 with the 150 I have hit 45 mph once on a calm river with about 25 gals of fuel and myself. Other than that 42-43 mph seems to be the norm at WOT. Now, if you install or have the optional t-top I can see the need for the extra 50 hp to balance out the power to weight ratio.
Yiddil posted 03-08-2009 06:37 PM ET (US)
I spoke to WHaler about it a few months ago...You can not retro fit a Capacity plate ...what ever the year is your boat is , is the Max and min HP it was rated for....not matter that the boats for years 2003-2009 are the exactly the same...Per Mt Bennett...
imko posted 04-09-2011 12:47 PM ET (US)
I bought a new 200 Verado L4 for my Outrage 190.
Must i go for the 19" Mirage prop, or is a Enertia 20"
a better choice?
Jefecinco posted 04-17-2011 10:25 AM ET (US)
IMKO,
No reply in a week? Try Performance for a response.
Butch

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: 2009 190 Outrage with Verado 200
Perry	posted 10-08-2008 03:12 PM ET (US) whaler.com shows the new 190 Outrage has an option for a Verado 200. The performance report doesn't show performance numbers yet for this boat/motor combination but it will be interesting to see how fast this hull will go with 200 HP. The maximum HP for this hull will also be increased to 200 HP. I am wondering if this will also apply to older 190 Outrages and Nantuckets. Can we get a new capacity plate that shows this increase in Max HP for our older Nantuckets?
highanddry	posted 10-08-2008 04:36 PM ET (US) You, this is funny, this was argued about long ago with some of us in minority who claimed that 150 horses was adequate but that 200 would be better. Finally, just as BW increased the transom weight when the Verado became available they have now allowed for the four cylinder version of the 200 by the same magic feat. They have done nothing but to change the placard to what it should have been to begin with. No, I doubt you can get a new placard and I doubt I would care.
Kencvit	posted 10-08-2008 06:17 PM ET (US) I just checked the mercury site...and the new 4 cyl 200 is the same weight as the old 150 which is 510 lbs with a 20 inch shaft, the nantucket/outrage takes the 25, so i`m guessing that adds 20 pds...so thats how they do it. The 6 cyl verado with a 25 inch shaft is a whopping 635 pds.With the verado 6 you`d have water coming in your scuppers. Now if mercury could shave 100 lbs off the 150 verado, then they`d have something great. I think the current 150 verado is heavy for the outrage I have the yamaha 150 at 466lbs (45 lighter than is Verado is heavy) the optimax 135-175 all weigh in the same at 430 lbs,a much better weight for the nantucket/outrage, but a louder engine. This could be in its own thread....but I wonder if in 5-10 years the same hp motors will be 100 lbs or significantly less weight?
chopbuster	posted 10-08-2008 06:43 PM ET (US) Speaking of alternatives; http://www.evinrude.com/en-US
Buckda	posted 10-08-2008 06:55 PM ET (US) High - "I doubt I would care"?? Well which is it - would you care or not? LOL Anyway...I agree with you - I don't think that you have very good prospects for getting Whaler to retroactively change the placard..but in a year or so, you may be able to order a "replacement" placard for your 190 Outrage that would have the new information on it. As was discussed in earlier threads, this reveals how close the relationship is between Whaler and Mercury. Not that it is a surprise - we already suspected as much, however, this just tips the hand and gives us some confirmation. I'm also interested to see the revised performance numbers with the 200 HP on this hull. I was one who agreed from the beginning that it would benefit from the higher HP rating and who wondered at the reasons/rationale behind the decision not to rate it higher.
chopbuster	posted 10-08-2008 07:30 PM ET (US) Just a thought and may well be off topic but this senario has happened. Should one have the unfortunate experience of a boating accident and local law enforcement and/or your insurance company determined that the capacity plate had been switched for one not in compliance, I would not want to be in their shoes.
bluewaterpirate	posted 10-08-2008 07:55 PM ET (US) One thing for sure Whaler has beefed up the HP ratings on the new Outrage models. The most hp you could get on the 270 Outrage was twin 225's. On the new 280 you can choose from twin 225/250/300's. The 220 Outrage is interesting in as much it has an 8' beam which is 4"s shorter than the 210 Outrage it replaced but you can buy it with a 300 hp Verado. The 250 Outrage has a 9 foot beam and the 240 it replaced has an 8'6" beam. The other interesting aspect is the new hull designs more deadrise at the transom. 21 - 23 degrees
highanddry	posted 10-08-2008 08:47 PM ET (US) I think they are increasing horsepower across the line on significant models and along with their new Gen X look on the bottom end is intended to counter the widely held belief that Whalers are old men boats for the blue blazer crowd. As to the data plate, if I were to build a boat in my garage as I have built airplanes in my garage exactly who would tell me what engine I was required to install on it? I could build an airplane in my garage and install a Mr. Fusion it it is I wanted to, I imagine there is a way to install a 200 on my Nantucket, heck, I just change the deacals out, they don't know.
continuousdave	posted 10-13-2008 12:52 PM ET (US) Does anyone still have the performece spec sheets from the whaler website before they just launched the new models. I'm looking for the specs on the 190 outrage. Specifically, I'm curious about the speed, fuel efficiency, etc for the Optimax 135 and Opti 150 vs the Verado 150, etc. They seemed to have take the performace spec sheets off for the Optimax engines and now just pose the Verados. Thanks Dave
Perry	posted 10-16-2008 10:08 PM ET (US) Boston Whaler has the performance data now on their website for the 200 Verado on the 190 Outrage and it shows slower acceleration than the 135 Verado but a top speed of 51.2 MPH. I was expecting closer to 55 MPH since I have seen 46+ MPH on my boat with a BF135 and others here claim 50 MPH with 150 HP Yamaha and Honda 4 strokes on their Nantuckets. Still good performance and economy for the 200 Verado. 5.8 MPG at 24.7 MPH cruise speed is impressive.
Perry	posted 10-16-2008 10:09 PM ET (US) Here is a link to the performance report: http://www.whaler.com/site_media/Performance_Data/190OR_EnginePerf.pdf
Sal A	posted 10-18-2008 04:48 PM ET (US) It seems that much, if not nearly all, the advantage of 50 extra ponies is negated by the weight. It would not be worth it for me.
Sal A	posted 10-18-2008 05:14 PM ET (US) I have a 175 L4 generation 1 Verado on my 205 Conquest, and it is pretty much the same engine as the 200 L4 Verado, except that the 200 gets some extra tweaking. The extra 25 ponies is tweaked by making the pressure in each cylinder higher for a longer period during the power stroke. I realize that I am cynical when I type this, but I sure hope this would not affect the longevity of the engine. If you are considering a new 190 Outrage, you are limited to three Verados for choices (all the same block I think?). But if you are repowering your older Nantucket or Outrage, you should consider the fact that the Verados require more substantial electrical feeding. Whereas my Yamaha F150 was a workhorse, and where its dual batteries could be configured in almost any manner, with a VHF and GPS/Plotter wired in, your new Verado will require AGM batteries, and they need to be wired in a certain way. The Smartcraft can give you extraordinary information, but will hurl out fault codes like a hedge fund manager hurling out his energy stocks, should the batteries not be optimal. You will get fault codes that are baffling. You will shriek what the heck is that? You will need a good dealer. As a fair and final note regarding this Verado, the DTS is really wonderful. The engine is smooth and responsive. I think I will enjoy mine more come springtime, and after a winter of going-through, I'll be more confident in mine. So I guess I am saying that the engine is not simple at all, and I am the type that would sacrifice some features and smoothness for reliability.
CAP1	posted 10-18-2008 09:47 PM ET (US) As I have only been a lurker at CW for a while, I will only note what I know from 2+ years of Verado use/experience. If you have batteries that meet Merc specs, AND you have a properly wired electrical system - dedicated starting battery, and separate dedicated battery for your house load - you will not have electrical issues, nor faults from electrical related issues. If you have a single engine application, you need at least 2 batteries. If you have 2 engines, you need at least 3 batteries. And, they must be wired in such a way so as to isolate/dedicate a battery to do nothing but start the engine. Another must is to properly maintain your batteries when your boat is not in use. Connect a 3 stage smart type charger to your battery whenever they are not in use and your batteries will give you a number of good years of trouble-free service. From much reading on BW wiring, there are apparently at least some models not wired per Merc requirement from the factory. If you are repowering a BW with a Verado, you need to meet the Merc requirements for the Verado engine of your choice, both in battery type and rating, and in wiring configuration. Thanks,
imko	posted 10-19-2008 09:34 AM ET (US) In this performance report the dry weight for the Outrage 190 with 200 hp is higher. The engines 135, 150 , 200 are the same weight. Maybe the new Outrage 190 is heavier / stronger than the old one?
highanddry	posted 10-19-2008 12:51 PM ET (US) No,it is the same boat, everyone thought the same thong when they upped the transom weight---no, it is the same boat. Hades man, it is already HEAVY for a 19 foot boat at over 2100 pounds.
seabob4	posted 10-21-2008 08:02 PM ET (US) Sal, No offense intended, but you do not need AGM batteries with Verados. What you do need are 800 CCA. We use Exide Nautilus. But, as you said, the key to the whole DTS/Smartcraft system is HEALTHY voltage. Always hook up your charger after a day out on the water. It will save you a lot of grief.
glen e	posted 10-21-2008 09:31 PM ET (US) merc is now requiring AGM's for verados - see the bulletin...or call 920-929-5040 and ask...both 4 cyl and 6 cyl....
fourdfish	posted 10-27-2008 10:32 PM ET (US) OK--Let me get this straight! Mercury is now requiring that all 4 & 6 cyl Verados must be run with AGM batteries. REQUIRE! That means no warranty if run with any other kind of battery??? NOT RECOMMEND, REQUIRE?????
fourdfish	posted 10-28-2008 06:13 PM ET (US) Since glen did not answer my post I think a thread should be started on the AGM-Verado post of his!
glen e	posted 10-28-2008 09:08 PM ET (US) willnot joust with f**k face here - he does not care about the asnwer, just wants to start a fight...call merc and ask if anyone cares about his question....
fourdfish	posted 10-29-2008 06:36 AM ET (US) Same old foul mouth, same old lady in heat attitude. Requiring an AGM battery is indeed a revelation!
boatdryver	posted 10-29-2008 09:17 AM ET (US) My 2007 200 Dauntless/175 HP Gen I Verado came with two conventional group 24 lead acid batteries and a 1-2-All-Off type Perko switch. I have had zero electrical problems. I keep the boat in the water with no charger and use it at least every 3 weeks, usually weekly, and alternate between battery #1 and #2, switching to Off when not in use. When these batteries need replacing I'll go to AGM, but I'm not changing now. Is the new requirement for AGM batteries to reduce electrical problems for Verados which sit a longer time between usage without attached chargers? Did it arise out of the experience with 6 cylinder Verados which have power steering which uses a lot of electrical power? JimL
glen e	posted 10-29-2008 02:03 PM ET (US) this change was indeed for those that let them sit or do not use a charger. It is not retroactive and is only for new verados delivered after 6/09 or so.
RonB	posted 11-03-2008 09:03 PM ET (US) I made the switch that Glen mentions, removing my single Group 24 lead acid battery for an AGM from Cabelas. With my Verado running with my lead acid battery, the voltage meter was reading 12.4 Volts, with the AGM Battery, it reads 14.2. Over the winter, I am adding a second battery as CAP1 recommends as I feel that a single battery configuration with the group 24 lead acid battery is a cheap set-up for a boat that cost me an arm and a leg. My previous Whaler, a 2000 18 Outrage came with dual batteries, I was disappointed that Whaler/Whaler dealers seem to be cutting corners with the 190 Outrage at least in the battery department. Ron
imko	posted 11-07-2008 01:54 PM ET (US) Has someone asked Boston Whaler if it's possible to get a new capacity plate for the Outrage 190 / Nantucket? In Holland you must have a new plate for the insurance company. Regards, Imko
imko	posted 03-07-2009 08:14 AM ET (US) The dealer told me that it is not possible to get a new capacity plate for the Outrage 190 (2007). The max hp stays 150 for my rig and for the insurance company....
JoeyP	posted 03-07-2009 11:15 PM ET (US) What makes that 200 so much better than the 150? Is there any measurable fuel economy with the 150 over the 200? That speed issue has me wondering. In my 08 190 with the 150 I have hit 45 mph once on a calm river with about 25 gals of fuel and myself. Other than that 42-43 mph seems to be the norm at WOT. Now, if you install or have the optional t-top I can see the need for the extra 50 hp to balance out the power to weight ratio.
Yiddil	posted 03-08-2009 06:37 PM ET (US) I spoke to WHaler about it a few months ago...You can not retro fit a Capacity plate ...what ever the year is your boat is , is the Max and min HP it was rated for....not matter that the boats for years 2003-2009 are the exactly the same...Per Mt Bennett...
imko	posted 04-09-2011 12:47 PM ET (US) I bought a new 200 Verado L4 for my Outrage 190. Must i go for the 19" Mirage prop, or is a Enertia 20" a better choice?
Jefecinco	posted 04-17-2011 10:25 AM ET (US) IMKO, No reply in a week? Try Performance for a response. Butch