posted 01-28-2013 09:54 AM ET (US)            

If so, the Verado L4 200 HP engine could be a contender. If you go that way I believe you'll like the SmartCraft gauges and the fly by wire throttle and shift. I suspect the performance of the Verado 200 would be on par with an older Mercury two stroke 225 HP engine. An Opti would also be a possibility but they are a noisy compared to the Verado.

I'm sure an E-Tec would serve you very well if you prefer to stay with a two stroke and save a few pounds.

Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha will all have an interesting offering for your boat if you have no objection to buying an offshore product.

posted 01-28-2013 10:03 AM ET (US)            

--Mercury OptiMax

--Mercury VERADO L6

Let's look at those two options.

The Mercury OptiMax may not fit your requirement that the engine be quiet. Of all presently available engines of 225-HP of any brand, I believe the Mercury Optimax is the loudest. Since you require a quiet engine, this may eliminate the Mercury OptiMax from consideration. Also, at 225-HP, the only model available seems to be Mercury OptiMax Pro XS 225-HP model. For some reason--that I do not quite understand--Mercury only offers a 225-HP model in this special racing motor style.

The Mercury VERADO 225-HP L6 engine is the other option. This engine will certainly meet your requirement for being quiet. The Mercury VERADO L6 engines are among the most quiet--indeed they might very well be the most quiet--outboard engines made today. However, fitting a Mercury VERADO 225-HP engine on your 21 CONQUEST transom may be a problem for two reasons: weight and rigging.

The weight of the Mercury VERADO 225-HP L6 engine is a staggering 635-lbs according to Mercury, but this weight seriously underestimates the actual total weight. With the VERADO L6 engine you will need to account for the weight of the mandatory electro-hydraulic boost pump. And, as usual, account for the weight of a propeller, the lubricants, and other rigging. I would estimate the actual weight of the VERADO installed will greater than 710-lbs. This is likely to be a substantial increase in the transom weight compared to your present engine.

A further drawback to re-powering your boat with a VERADO L6 is the significant change in rigging that will be necessary. First, your entire steering system will have to be totally overhauled and upgraded to accommodate the mandatory electro-hydraulic steering for the VERADO L6. If you presently have hydraulic steering, it may be possible to adapt your helm pump, but you will be likely to spend several thousand dollars for the steering upgrade. Also, with VERADO L6 you will have to tear out all your present controls and gauges, and replace them with the mandatory Mercury digital throttle and shift (DTS) controls, as well as mandatory Mercury SmartCraft digital instrumentation. I think you can probably expect the re-rigging to add about $3,000 in component costs and perhaps $1,000 in labor if you hire this rigging to be done. And you probably are going to be required to hire the rigging to be done by a certified Mercury VERADO dealer and mechanic, as this is the only way to get a VERADO installed. You need to find a specially qualified Mercury dealer who can perform this rigging. In my area, Southeast Michigan, where boating is enormously popular, I believe there is only one Mercury dealer presently certified and offering re-rigging of VERADO engines, out of more than a dozen Mercury dealers.

If you want to study more about the Mercury options of the OptiMax or VERADO, here is a good starting point:

http://www.mercurymarine.com/compare/outboards/?compare=46,40

posted 01-29-2013 08:57 AM ET (US)            

I apologize for my comment on offshore products. Obviously the US produces offshore products. I tend to forget we have an international membership.

As always, prices vary. For purposes of warranty, etc. you will probably be dependent upon your Australian Mercury Distributor. If not you'll need to find a discount dealer somewhere who has the expertise and willingness to handle an export sale and shipping.

An internet search may find a couple of dealers you can check with. The one that comes to mind for me is Ed's Marine in Virginia. I believe there is another discount dealer in Georgia. A search here on CW my yield some useful results and THT is another site to search.

Good luck.

posted 01-29-2013 05:06 PM ET (US)            

I got a price of 21K for a 200HP Verado installed.

judging what I see at Ed's superstore I reckon I could save a couple of grand.

posted 01-31-2013 01:19 AM ET (US)            

I've been looking around the net and discovered a couple of scams. You know the saying "If the price is too good to be true, then it isn't true".

Seems there are no cheap offerings in the large Honda range, so I am now leaning back towards the 200 Verado.
I also think your motor could temp me too (great value).

I met a guy on the weekend, both he and his son bought new two of the same boats with your motor and they were very happy.

I like the idea of a light motor on the back of a boat, but I worry about the future of 2 stoke motors in this country.

posted 02-01-2013 10:06 AM ET (US)            

"I can't see why you wouldn't be happy with a new Verado. "

Here's some advice from the Veradoclub.com website:

"no dice...PLEASE DON'T BUY A VERADO IF THERE IS NO ONE CERTIFIED AROUND YOU....or a BMW, or a Lear Jet or a complex house alarm system...and on & on...

and if you say "but I can get it cheap", remember "cheap and broke does not equal more expensive and running"

This is esp written for our Canadian owners...."

I'm not Verado bashing; I have a Verado and couldn't be happier after 4 seasons.
But I think the above is good advice.

posted 02-02-2013 03:48 PM ET (US)            

http://www.inkbox.net/whaler/whaler-2012-09.jpg

I shared this with a co-worker who comes from the sailing world, who remarked on the "enormous" outboard.

posted 02-02-2013 05:55 PM ET (US)            

http://www.inkbox.net/whaler/

By the way, on the noise issue, I noticed I have a couple of short videos of my old two-stroke and the OptiMax idling. Here's the old two-stroke (at age 15 years):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzMGFlTFk1o

Here's the new OptiMax when we launched it after it was installed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TpBiuFGqs

Obviously this is not a controlled comparison because the cameras and settings are different. To my ear the OptiMax idles more smoothly (I think Larry likened it to the sound of a sewing machine), whereas the older outboard sounded rougher. Also the OptiMax is much quieter at speed -- we used to have to shout over the old engine, not so now.

posted 02-03-2013 05:33 AM ET (US)            

When I got home I googled Suzuki and found many owners to be happy with the motor's reliability.

posted 02-04-2013 03:00 AM ET (US)            

You mentioned having an interest in HONDA. You should give the HONDA a careful look. You may not be aware, but our own United States Coast Guard uses the HONDA BF225 as the standard outboard engine on its RESPONSE BOAT-SMALL. They have over 1,000 HONDA BF225 outboard engines in service on over 500 boats. Their contract requirements with the supplier demand that these outboard engines will run 4,000-hours before major overhaul. It is anecdotally reported that the HONDA BF-225 engines even exceed that, and are reported with 6,000-hours of operation without any major repair. That sort of record of reliability and durability is unmatched. They have just ordered 500 new boats and all of those will have twin HONDA engines. The continued use of the HONDA outboard on the standard boats of the United States Coast Guard seems to me to be a commitment to the demonstrated reliability and durability of the HONDA outboard engine.

Since quiet operation and fuel economy are two important concerns for you, I think you will find that the HONDA engine will deliver in both areas. I believe that due to the experience of producing automobile engines where fuel economy is paramount, HONDA seems to be able to deliver the best fuel economy of any outboard engine. Their fuel economy data is extremely impressive. You should look closely at HONDA for fuel economy.

For quiet operation you will not be disappointed with a HONDA. They are also very quiet engines. I do not know of any really reliable comparative data, but my impression of the HONDA when I hear them in operation is they are certain among the group of very quiet four-cycle engines.

Since you are much closer to Japan than the USA in terms of importing outboards, I suspect the HONDA may be more competitively priced in your market compared to USA products imported to Australia.

Regarding the smaller VERADO engine, I would strongly suggest you take a sea trial on a boat that has the four-cylinder VERADO before you decide to follow recommendations that specifically suggest that is the best engine for you. I was quite surprised that when I was on a sea trial of a boat with the four-cylinder VERADO that it did not display the same characteristics of low noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) that I have so admired in the six-cylinder model. I have been on three sea trials with the four-cylinder VERADO. On one of those there was also aboard one of the most fervent Mercury supporters you will ever meet, and even he was surprised by the four-cylinder model's NVH characteristics. It is just not quite up to the standard set by the six-cylinder. You should be aware of the difference among these VERADO models.

The four-cylinder VERADO does not require the mandatory electro-hydraulic power boost steering, so it is somewhat easier to rig on an existing boat; you should be able to adapt your steering, if you presently have hydraulic steering that can handle a very heavy engine. You would still need to completely re-do the rigging. You would have to install Mercury's digital throttle and shift controls and their proprietary gauges.

I am very surprised that a 200-HP engine has been represented as "the engine of choice" when your boat currently has a 225-HP engine, particularly when so often we hear that powering a boat with plenty of horsepower is important. I don't know if giving up some horsepower just to fit a particular engine on the transom because it says "Mercury" is a reasonable argument. You can decide for yourself what horsepower you like. If you want less power, that is up to you. I wouldn't be swayed by recommendations to take less power just to get a particular model.

posted 02-04-2013 05:50 AM ET (US)            

Currently I'm swayed by the light weight of the 200 Verado over the 200 Honda and I feel there are better deals in the larger US market for Merc's. It seems one is paying an extra $1500 for a Honda.

My plan now is to spend time searching the web for deals and seek out negative performance information on the 200 Verado which will justify a change in direction.

It was weird when I looked at the Suzuki site the other night, how the owners were unaminous in support for their motor. Visit Merc sites and you don't see the same hoorah.

Jim, even though we are closer to Japan we don't have the buying power of the US market so when it comes to picking up a Honda at a reasonable price in Aus, it's pretty remote.

I mentioned earlier that my wife is a Honda fan. In the back of my mind I know I would be held accountable if I bought a dud Merc!!!

posted 02-04-2013 10:06 AM ET (US)            

At the present moment I believe that there are many outboard engines on the market that are good choices. In the USA they are all covered by generous warranties. The differences in horsepower are very slim, a by-product of the careful emission regulations in which emission levels are defined by horsepower produced. This has tended to result in rather accurate power ratings. Those old stories told on the dock about certain brands having more horsepower--WINK-WINK--than shown on the cowling decals are relics of the 1960's. It might have been true 50 years ago, but not today.

Another influence on outboard engine purchase decisions should be the dealer that you buy from. Given the price of a 225-HP modern outboard engine, you will be handing over a lot of money. You should, at the least, choose a dealer that you feel comfortable with being involved in a purchase of this magnitude. I might mail-order a $100 bit of electronics, but I am not sure I would mail-order a $20,000 engine. And, of course, you want a dealer that is able to give proper support. No matter what brand you choose, you will need the support of a strong dealer to have a good experience. Proper installation and rigging are essential. In some models, notably the Mercury VERADO, only selected dealers who have been specially trained, qualified, or certified, can perform the installation and rigging. To bring the warranty coverage into force, you typically must comply with all the required installation and rigging details and have a dealer affirm that.

posted 02-05-2013 07:06 AM ET (US)            

There have been reports of water entering the exhaust system on some Honda V6 motors. With a Honda V6 motor, I think you need to pay close attention to how high the powerhead will be above the water line on your boat. If its weight on the transom would cause the boat to be stern heavy and the powerhead low to the water line, then it might be at risk. I recall reading that the exhaust idle relief port needs to be 6 inches above the water line. I'm not sure how you would be able to figure out in advance whether the motor would meet that requirement on your boat.

If I were in your situation, I'd be looking for a motor that doesn't add significant weight to the transom. If at 200 HP or less, the Mercury Verado 200, the Mercury Optimax 200, the Evinrude 200 or 200 HO and the new Yamaha F200F all seem to be viable candidates. The Mercury Optimax 200 would be the easiest repower because you could reuse your controls. All the rest require a rerig of the boat.

posted 02-05-2013 04:44 PM ET (US)            

In addition to the 225HP I currently run a 25HP 2 stoke Merc kicker motor on the stern on a cantilevering outboard bracket, I think it weighs around 120lbs.
I am concious the combined weight of the 225 Merc and the kicker is almost 600lb however the boat seems to look OK.
When I load the boat I keep much of the dead weight forward where I can.

The only issue I have is the kicker noticeable weighs the boat down to one side when at rest.

The Honda 200 is similar in weight to what I now carry.
I guess you highlight my worry of the 250 Honda slightly exceeds the acceptable mass.

Peter, I have seen a number of 21' Conquests with 250 2 strokes (in advertisments only). Do you know how heavy they are.

posted 02-05-2013 05:43 PM ET (US)            

If I were to repower I would just run twin four strokes and be done with it Im sure so would my wallet and bank account at that point. Yikes!

posted 02-05-2013 06:47 PM ET (US)            

200hp= L-Type 267 kg/588 lbs.
X-Type 277 kg/610 lbs.

250= L-Type 272 kg - 600 lbs.
X-Type 278 kg - 613 lbs
XX-Type 282 kg - 622 lbs.

Personally I think your boat could handle that kind of weight from whatever engine you choose. Budget, patience and availability will be what to consider. With an additional kicker thats when you might be pushing it a bit. Thats a common concern with older Whalers and the big Four Strokes available. Sometimes thats exactly why the Etec or Optimax two strokes get the nod.

posted 02-05-2013 11:41 PM ET (US)            

I lived for a long time in the UAE and often use to consider imports from US, very few dealers will actually ship over sea's and even Ed's would not on certain outboards

Often the bundled packages you get on export models typically including prop, rigging, control and gauges soon outweigh what you may consider bargain prices at first from the US, where generally these are all extra

When I tried to buy a 9.9 Yam kicker from the states it was almost impossible to get some one export, the far east I could not trace a reliable dealer and thanks to currency fluctuations the UK actually turned out to be the best deal and was cheaper to air freight to UAE

Generally outside of the US I found Suzuki and ETEC offered the best value Honda and Yamaha being most expensive other than Verado that seem to be at premium

I suggest you also try a few dealers in Abu Dhabi and Dubai you may find a deal especially with the bundle they include

posted 02-07-2013 06:14 PM ET (US)            

It's not so easy to lift a 225 OB off the back of your boat and lean it against the house wall like you do with a kicker motor.

Then there is the issue of transporting the second hand motor you buy. ie need to build a cradle and organise freight.

Then there is the installation of the new motor, the amalgamation of instrumentation, throtle control, steering hydraulics and electrics and tunig the prop.

All that done, whats the chance of the new motor being faulty or something stuffs up during installation process.

With large motors you have to rely on mechancs who charge a minimum of $100 per hour.

posted 02-08-2013 03:59 AM ET (US)            

Once you step in to the world of grey imports you have to weigh up the pros and cons carefully re warranty etc regardless if you buy from the US or elsewhere

I bought all my electronics from the US and my kicker from UK but guarantees or support on for these is not international and return to base was not an option on the kicker

Your best bet is to find a buddy who is coming home with a container

posted 02-08-2013 05:21 AM ET (US)            

I think to buy low powered or cheaper motors where there is only a few grand at stake, thats OK. Grey is great in that situation.
However when you are talking of 200HP plus you need to consider backup warranties and on going service contracts.

Saying all that, I am a sucker for a good deal, infact you have just reminded me of a guy who does alot of importing.

posted 02-10-2013 03:24 AM ET (US)            

I saw a nice new 250 (last years model) on Ebay yesturday in North Carolina which did't reach it's reserve. The was one bid for 10.5k and a 17k buy now price.

posted 02-11-2013 08:10 PM ET (US)            

Hearing the word minor was good. However, as I was leaving his workshop he confidently remarked (mate like) that my motor had a bullet proof reptutation, as though he was very familiar and an expert with same.

Well, his remark did not reassure me, it worried me !!!
I really had hold back a strong urge to comment on his competance.

posted 02-11-2013 10:15 PM ET (US)            

I checked with the dealer that looked after my boat for years.

A full fitted ETEC 225hp all rigged plus I-command, control, cables (no battery), s/s prop etc etc is $16375 and the 250hp is $17300

I would guess at say $500 off for no fitting but $1000 to ship still makes it a good price (excluding import duty to AUS) as it is coming with $2k of accessories not typically included in the US prices.

Regards
Steve

posted 02-15-2013 03:44 PM ET (US)            

I think there is plenty of tests with data that shows the Verado to be very quiet. Many other outboards now approach that same degree of silence at idle. To include the OptiMax in that group is just not possible.

posted 02-15-2013 04:18 PM ET (US)         

Now I now you and Peter don't like that magazine because of John Tiger's Shootout articles not favoring Evinrude's performances, and it's sister publication Trailer Boats, but when it was in business, it was legitimate as far as I can tell. I think one of your Evinrude contributors here would confirm that fact.

posted 02-23-2013 10:01 AM ET (US)            

sounds like decision time for you.....

posted 02-24-2013 01:02 AM ET (US)            

The problem was most likely caused by a blockage in the oil line which has starved the lower cylinders.

After seeing the motor stripped down I am confident that once the pistons are back in and all the supply lines are cleaned then there is no reason why the motor shouldn't go for a good number of years.

posted 03-23-2013 04:57 AM ET (US)            

I have looked at and exhausted all the information I could discover about 200 to 250 Honda and Merc Outboards.
I also kept your advise in mind about the reliability of the Honda brand.
At the same time I also tried to reason why I should not go with the Merc Verado or the brillant new light weight 2 stokes which are producing amazing power and are much quieter than before, so my decision was not easy.

Next Thursday (Easter Holiday weekend)I shall pick up the boat and take it down to a place called Rhyll on Phillip Island. The bottom of mainland Australia.

The Island is very exposed on one side to the Southern ocean/Bass straight (scarey)and Western Port to the north which is protected from the open ocean can still blow up and be dangerous.
The waterway is very tidel and has a muddy bottom which can be a problem at low tide if you don't have local knowledge.
The fishing is great, you can expect to catch fish like Snapper, whiting, Gummy sharks, elephant fish, and bream to name a few.

posted 03-23-2013 08:41 AM ET (US)            

Keep in mind that Whaler factory installed the Verado L6 225HP on the Ventura 21 in it's last model years. This is the same hull as your Conquest, so the transom can take the weight. It would be a very expensive repower, but it is possible.

I was leaning towards the Honda 250HP, but the new Yamaha 200F currently has me intrigued. The digital control 200G will not be available here until late summer.

I do need some assurance that Yamaha has addressed their exhaust internal corrosion issues that have plagued their 3.3L 225/250 HP engines before laying down over $20K. It's too soon to tell if the 4.2L engines have improved corrosion protection.

posted 03-24-2013 03:40 AM ET (US)            

I am only too pleased to update you on my experiences with the new motor.
It's only the last week or two I noticed the new Yamaha 200F getting some good reports and I also are of the belief Yamaha have still alot of work (spin) to get people to forget about the corrosion issues which plague them in the mid 2000's.

I am always interested to hear from people who have eperienced Bass Straight when she's rough.
It's our local ocean and it is so tempting to cross when the weather is good, but most of us know to be aware,,,,,

posted 04-19-2013 06:50 AM ET (US)            

All has gone well so far, but I can't really say the motor is all that quite once you build the revs over 2k.

posted 04-22-2013 08:37 AM ET (US)            

Your my test bunny.... to try-out my first attempt at Flickr.
I've frustratingly downloaded some earlier photos of my boat and some scenery shots. Hopefully I have managed to put them on the system.
From what I can gather is that you go to http://www.flickr.com/photos/peteroney/

posted 04-22-2013 06:25 PM ET (US)            

The shots at the Marina are at the Dockland part of Melbourne's city. The whole area is being developed as fast as you would not believe. That was our second outing in the boat.

The next group of photos with the Pelicans is when we camped at a rural looking place called Leopold near Geelong. Geelong is a city on the southern side of our large bay and was established on the strengh of the wool industry.
These days it survives on government handouts which prop up the once profitable Ford motor car manufacturing plant.

posted 04-29-2013 08:43 AM ET (US)            

I try to drive or lets say power the boat to plane with much the same technique and effort I used with the old 225 Merc in attempt to compare acceleration if thats makes any sense.

The new motor seems to not acellerate or get out of the blocks as quick as the old motor. I guess it's because it's being powered by a larger 19" prop (the previous was 17").

Although we headed into a sea with a fair amount of wind chop we still managed to sit on a comfortably 30mph at around 4000 rpm, any faster than that the wife would start to grizzle.
I tried to test drive at a slower speed, say 20mph, around 3000rpm, the speed I would contemplate doing if I where to beat into a larger sea.
To my supprise I found the motor sort of laboured to power us through the chop and the boat noticably lost revs and struggled to stay on a plane. At that lower rev range it was a bit of a juggle with the throttle to keep her right.

I still found the winding sound from the motor at 4000rpm loud enough to make it awkward to carry on a conversation with my wife sitting beside me which meant I needed to back off and juggle the throttle to be heard.

We return to our little sheltered bay and where I couldn't help giving her a sqirt until the wife bare nuckled from hanging on told me to slow down. Well at 5000rpm. Wow....The 21 footer was a missle.

posted 05-01-2013 06:59 PM ET (US)            

Normally I moor the boat in a shallow channel about 200 feet off shore where it unfortunately gets a bit of bird crap and I have to use a canoe or dinghy for access.

This was the first time I have let the boat sit on the mud flat and it's because I got caught up doing another job. I forgot King tides move out quicker than the norm.

When I first realised my error I just packed a fender under the boat and left it as is, partly beached on the sand. The wind was going to remain heading offshore so there was no threat of wave action.

Later that afternoon I set the alarm for 2am in the morning (next high tide) and got up and moved the boat to deeper water.
This time however I planed to moor closer in. This time I put on my waders and walked it out to where I thought the ground was safe to dry out on.

Towards the end of April time of year we see King tides and full moons.
Well I had alot of fun moving the boat. The moon was so bright, the air was still and you could hear sounds and see the swans and other water birds inquisitively, and slowly moving towards you and watching as I secured the boat in it's new position.

posted 05-01-2013 11:45 PM ET (US)            

Most of the water I travel in would be described as shallow so I often check the fish finder (apelco 360) and it seems to be OK.

Commander, you have prompted me to look up the manual and I have noticed it adivises a 2" clearance from the circumferance of the prop.....
Oh! I now have a 19" prop.