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Author Topic:   Hull Blisters?

rbyrd posted 02-19-2003 11:59 AM ET (US)
Are Classic and Post Classic Boston Whaler hulls prone to hull blisters?
Does the factory change resin manufacturers to get better price to increase margins?
Has anyone researched this? I will see if I can get Material Safety Sheets for the Resins they use and for the gelcoat if I can.
Is this worth my trouble?
DaveH posted 02-19-2003 12:58 PM ET (US)
rbyrd:
All fiberglass hulls (by any manufacturer) have potential for blisters, period.
Most manufacturers use either polyester resin, vinylester resin or epoxy, in order of price and performance.
Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) will not tell you anything about the quality of the resin, just the exposure limits for humans, flammibility, and handling information per government guidelines. For performance information, you would need a material performance specification document.
No, I do not believe this is worth your trouble.
rbyrd posted 02-19-2003 04:27 PM ET (US)
I picked MSD sheets thinking they would be more prepared to give those to me. From there I could get the material data sheets from the company who makes the resin. Maybe I might have outsmarted myself, but I do know for companies I worked for we had to give MSDS if requested.
I know there are different levels of quality of resins and like to know what BW uses for their boats.
DaveH posted 02-19-2003 05:43 PM ET (US)
rbyrd:MSDS sheets are required to be on site and availble by the employer from the chemical manufacturer. They are used by any worker who specifically handles these products or comes in contact with them second hand. They are also required for Emergency workers when called to handle situations on the site.
[Expresses doubt that casual customers] are entitled to have these documents. I would also wonder what you would do with resin specifications if you did get your hands on them. It is almost like trying to tell if a bread will taste good only by knowing which flour the baker used. There are too many factors involved for you to extrapolate anything useful from resin type.
It is not stated in any document I have, but I would be willing to bet the farm that BW uses polyester resin like almost all other manufacturers do. The higher performance resins are typically geared toward Kevlar, carbon fiber, and other unique glass applications.
rbyrd posted 02-19-2003 08:01 PM ET (US)
DaveH,
I just read a big spiel about the quality of resin used on boats and wondered if there would be any useful info [in the MSDS]. The article states there is a difference in resins.
Maybe I am out smarting myself.
DaveH posted 02-20-2003 08:20 AM ET (US)
The bottom line is that polyester resin is what you should look at unless advised otherwise by someone at BW. I do not believe they will offer any information on possible additives to their resin (not to mention glass type,orientation, etc). Therefore, your research will not be effective since you are missing a lot of data which is needed to form a proper theory of comparing blistering rates between manufacturers.
jimh posted 02-20-2003 09:00 AM ET (US)
[This thread has been edited--Moderator]
Although the Boston Whaler company does not appear to disclose the brand of resin it uses, many other boat builders do.
Sea Craft touts their use of AME 5000 Vinylester. This is a popular "premium" brand of resin and is often mentioned by boat builders who use it.
Osmotic blistering is not especially common in Boston Whaler brand boat hulls. I think this is due to their being trailerable boats which often spend little time actually in the water.
stagalv posted 02-20-2003 09:53 AM ET (US)
For those not familiar with blisters there is a good article to read about it. Jeremy Hood with Bluewater Cruising wrote a good one. Check it out at bluewatercruising.com and click on articles.
Bigshot posted 02-20-2003 10:57 AM ET (US)
I have owned Whalers with blisters and without. They usually get REALLY small ones on the transom. I have never seen any Big blisters or deep blisters. Unfortunatley other than a 16' Hobie cat, the only other boats I ever owned with blisters were 3 Whalers but more like Goose bumps.
Chap posted 02-20-2003 11:52 AM ET (US)
I believe that Whaler's thin skin is less conducive to blisters because it is less likely to have pockets of uncured resin.
In addition, this thin skin is subjected to pressure from the foam injection process, like an internal "vaccuum bagging" of the hull which aids in uniform curing even though it is not hand laid cloth.
This of course could all be pie in the sky chopper gun talk like before because I like my boat.
Fun skiff.
newt posted 02-20-2003 12:24 PM ET (US)
I looked at a 1979 +/- v-20 outrage this past summer that was badly blistered. I believe the boat spent a considerable amount of time on a mooring. I dont think you could draw a 6" circle on the bottom that did not have a blister in it!
doobee posted 02-21-2003 01:00 AM ET (US)
As far as I know, Whaler always used polyester resin. The Boston Whaler company I knew was very conscientious when it came to materials and quality control. They had specific requirements for the materials they purchased and would not settle for less.
Bottom blisters became the scourge of the marine industry in the mid eighties. While not impossible, it is very rare on boats prior to that vintage. The popular theory is that EPA regulatory changes forced gelcoat manufacturers to make changes in the manufacturing process which caused the cured gelcoat to be more porous. Another common cause of blistering was oversanding the hull prior to painting.
Whaler spent a tremendous amount of money on independent testing labs trying to determine the cause of the gelcoat failure. They were never able to pinpoint the exact cause. Eventually blister block resins were developed and the point became moot (and mute). It would be fair to say that Whalers produced from the mid nineties on were less prone to blistering because they have some form of blister block resin.
There are 3 types of blistering you will find on a Whaler.
1. Air blisters were caused by poor application of the gelcoat/fiberglass layup. They are most common in the chines and strakes. When you pop an air blister it will probably have dry fibers inside.
2. Uncured resin blisters were caused by improper mixing of the resin and catalyst. These can appear anywhere on the hull, above or below the waterline. They will most likely be confined to a small area depending on the sprayer's technique. The interior of the blister will be gummy and smell like resin.
3. Osmotic blisters are caused when water permeates porous gelcoat and starts to disolve the exterior coating on the glass fibers. Osmotic blisters will typically appear to consistently cover the entire bottom of the boat below the waterline. The interior will be wet and smell like resin.
That about covers Blistering 101. There will be a "pop" quiz in the morning.
rbyrd posted 02-21-2003 03:20 PM ET (US)
I want to say thanks jimhfor saving this thread. It started to go astray and my original question was based on some reading I was doing (uncontrolled quality and increasing margins by using cheaper resins). Also, I was out witting myself do to the fact I had to be sly at work to get info I wanted from another company.
Well, thanks for directing this post in the right direction jimh.
Side note. I do not know how the boat manufacturing industry is set up? I am not use to product changes unless all is known about the effects of the changes on the product. From what I read boat manufacturers do not have to do all this testing and it seems a little haphazard. When I go back to Florida to visit my family I am definitely going on a factory tour at the Edgewater manufacturing facility and ask about any statistical process controls they have in place.
Regards,
rbyrd

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Author	Topic: Hull Blisters?
rbyrd	posted 02-19-2003 11:59 AM ET (US) Are Classic and Post Classic Boston Whaler hulls prone to hull blisters? Does the factory change resin manufacturers to get better price to increase margins? Has anyone researched this? I will see if I can get Material Safety Sheets for the Resins they use and for the gelcoat if I can. Is this worth my trouble?
DaveH	posted 02-19-2003 12:58 PM ET (US) rbyrd: All fiberglass hulls (by any manufacturer) have potential for blisters, period. Most manufacturers use either polyester resin, vinylester resin or epoxy, in order of price and performance. Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) will not tell you anything about the quality of the resin, just the exposure limits for humans, flammibility, and handling information per government guidelines. For performance information, you would need a material performance specification document. No, I do not believe this is worth your trouble.
rbyrd	posted 02-19-2003 04:27 PM ET (US) I picked MSD sheets thinking they would be more prepared to give those to me. From there I could get the material data sheets from the company who makes the resin. Maybe I might have outsmarted myself, but I do know for companies I worked for we had to give MSDS if requested. I know there are different levels of quality of resins and like to know what BW uses for their boats.
DaveH	posted 02-19-2003 05:43 PM ET (US) rbyrd:MSDS sheets are required to be on site and availble by the employer from the chemical manufacturer. They are used by any worker who specifically handles these products or comes in contact with them second hand. They are also required for Emergency workers when called to handle situations on the site. [Expresses doubt that casual customers] are entitled to have these documents. I would also wonder what you would do with resin specifications if you did get your hands on them. It is almost like trying to tell if a bread will taste good only by knowing which flour the baker used. There are too many factors involved for you to extrapolate anything useful from resin type. It is not stated in any document I have, but I would be willing to bet the farm that BW uses polyester resin like almost all other manufacturers do. The higher performance resins are typically geared toward Kevlar, carbon fiber, and other unique glass applications.
rbyrd	posted 02-19-2003 08:01 PM ET (US) DaveH, I just read a big spiel about the quality of resin used on boats and wondered if there would be any useful info [in the MSDS]. The article states there is a difference in resins. Maybe I am out smarting myself.
DaveH	posted 02-20-2003 08:20 AM ET (US) The bottom line is that polyester resin is what you should look at unless advised otherwise by someone at BW. I do not believe they will offer any information on possible additives to their resin (not to mention glass type,orientation, etc). Therefore, your research will not be effective since you are missing a lot of data which is needed to form a proper theory of comparing blistering rates between manufacturers.
jimh	posted 02-20-2003 09:00 AM ET (US) [This thread has been edited--Moderator] Although the Boston Whaler company does not appear to disclose the brand of resin it uses, many other boat builders do. Sea Craft touts their use of AME 5000 Vinylester. This is a popular "premium" brand of resin and is often mentioned by boat builders who use it. Osmotic blistering is not especially common in Boston Whaler brand boat hulls. I think this is due to their being trailerable boats which often spend little time actually in the water.
stagalv	posted 02-20-2003 09:53 AM ET (US) For those not familiar with blisters there is a good article to read about it. Jeremy Hood with Bluewater Cruising wrote a good one. Check it out at bluewatercruising.com and click on articles.
Bigshot	posted 02-20-2003 10:57 AM ET (US) I have owned Whalers with blisters and without. They usually get REALLY small ones on the transom. I have never seen any Big blisters or deep blisters. Unfortunatley other than a 16' Hobie cat, the only other boats I ever owned with blisters were 3 Whalers but more like Goose bumps.
Chap	posted 02-20-2003 11:52 AM ET (US) I believe that Whaler's thin skin is less conducive to blisters because it is less likely to have pockets of uncured resin. In addition, this thin skin is subjected to pressure from the foam injection process, like an internal "vaccuum bagging" of the hull which aids in uniform curing even though it is not hand laid cloth. This of course could all be pie in the sky chopper gun talk like before because I like my boat. Fun skiff.
newt	posted 02-20-2003 12:24 PM ET (US) I looked at a 1979 +/- v-20 outrage this past summer that was badly blistered. I believe the boat spent a considerable amount of time on a mooring. I dont think you could draw a 6" circle on the bottom that did not have a blister in it!
doobee	posted 02-21-2003 01:00 AM ET (US) As far as I know, Whaler always used polyester resin. The Boston Whaler company I knew was very conscientious when it came to materials and quality control. They had specific requirements for the materials they purchased and would not settle for less. Bottom blisters became the scourge of the marine industry in the mid eighties. While not impossible, it is very rare on boats prior to that vintage. The popular theory is that EPA regulatory changes forced gelcoat manufacturers to make changes in the manufacturing process which caused the cured gelcoat to be more porous. Another common cause of blistering was oversanding the hull prior to painting. Whaler spent a tremendous amount of money on independent testing labs trying to determine the cause of the gelcoat failure. They were never able to pinpoint the exact cause. Eventually blister block resins were developed and the point became moot (and mute). It would be fair to say that Whalers produced from the mid nineties on were less prone to blistering because they have some form of blister block resin. There are 3 types of blistering you will find on a Whaler. 1. Air blisters were caused by poor application of the gelcoat/fiberglass layup. They are most common in the chines and strakes. When you pop an air blister it will probably have dry fibers inside. 2. Uncured resin blisters were caused by improper mixing of the resin and catalyst. These can appear anywhere on the hull, above or below the waterline. They will most likely be confined to a small area depending on the sprayer's technique. The interior of the blister will be gummy and smell like resin. 3. Osmotic blisters are caused when water permeates porous gelcoat and starts to disolve the exterior coating on the glass fibers. Osmotic blisters will typically appear to consistently cover the entire bottom of the boat below the waterline. The interior will be wet and smell like resin. That about covers Blistering 101. There will be a "pop" quiz in the morning.
rbyrd	posted 02-21-2003 03:20 PM ET (US) I want to say thanks jimhfor saving this thread. It started to go astray and my original question was based on some reading I was doing (uncontrolled quality and increasing margins by using cheaper resins). Also, I was out witting myself do to the fact I had to be sly at work to get info I wanted from another company. Well, thanks for directing this post in the right direction jimh. Side note. I do not know how the boat manufacturing industry is set up? I am not use to product changes unless all is known about the effects of the changes on the product. From what I read boat manufacturers do not have to do all this testing and it seems a little haphazard. When I go back to Florida to visit my family I am definitely going on a factory tour at the Edgewater manufacturing facility and ask about any statistical process controls they have in place. Regards, rbyrd