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Author Topic:   "Mercury motors are made by Yamaha"??

Foulweather Jack posted 08-03-2005 08:11 PM ET (US)
Was looking at a new 130 Sport today at our local Whaler dealer. I have a 1996 Outrage 19 with a Yamaha 175 that has performed flawlessly. Having watched my neighbor's Dauntless with a Mercury 150 float helplessly down the river after his motor broke (bad tensioning spring for the belts, after only 12 hours), I'm none too keen on the idea of buying a Mercury.
When I mentioned my preference for Yamahas to the salesman, he told me that the internals of the new Mercury 4 strokes were "made by Yamaha" and that they had been "developed as part of a joint venture between Yamaha and Mercury." This sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking for confirmation on this forum. Does anyone know the scoop here?
Also, list for a 130 Sport with a 25 Mercury 4 stroke was $11,500. When I looked at the Whaler website last month, that package was quoted for almost exactly $10K. Now, the "build your whaler" page is nowhere to be found anymore, and it's impossible to verify list price online anymore. Can anyone help me with a resource for finding the actual list price?
Thanks in advance for your help.
JOHN W MAYO posted 08-03-2005 08:33 PM ET (US)
Dealers response "sounds fishy to me".
Phil Tyson posted 08-03-2005 09:38 PM ET (US)
I think they may be working on updating the site with 2006 information and have disabled the build it feature.
Just a guess.
jimh posted 08-03-2005 11:02 PM ET (US)
According to statements made before the United States International Trade Commission (USITC) during the investigation into outboard engine dumping by Japan:
The only four-stroke engine which was entirely made by Mercury was a 25-HP model. This pre-dated the introduction of the VERADO engine in February of 2004
The VERADO engines are made by Mercury in their Fond du Lac, Wisconsin factory.
Many smaller horsepower four-stroke engines sold under the Mercury brand are made by Tohatsu. Mercury and Tohatsu now have a joint venture in Japan to build some of these engines. This plant just came online this year, I think.
In c.1995 Mercury and Yamaha entered into a five year joint venture to develop a four-stroke motor in the 50-HP range. Mercury made the block, Yamaha made the cylinder heads, cams, valves, etc. They each assembled the engines themselves. The joint venture deal expired c.2000.
This joint venture engine is now still in production by both Mercury and Yamaha. They may still sell each other some of the parts they make for this engine. There is still some Yamaha content in these engines sold by Mercury. There is likely some Mercury content in the engines sold by Yamaha, but it could just be the block casting.
Mercury has purchased thousands of power heads for four-stroke engines in the 75-90-115 HP range from Yamaha and mated them to Mercury mid-sections and lower units, added Mercury electricals, etc. and sold them as Mercury branded engines. These power heads became the subject of bitter negotiations and legal wrangling between Mercury and Yamaha, with the ultimate result that a court order was needed to force Yamaha to continue to sell these components to Mercury.
There are many well researched and more detailed articles on this topic in the archives. If you want to learn more, just search them out.
All of the above are my recollections based on my extensive reading of the thousands of pages of documents provided in the USITC hearings. The presenters of these documents were subject to criminal prosecution for making false statements.
Boat salesmen are not quite put to the same test and are liable to say anything that comes to mind and suits their purpose.
No statements made by boat salesmen were used in the preparation of this information, except for some rather startling comments made before the USITC by Mercury dealers who testified on the behalf of the Japanese engine manufacturers.
jimh posted 08-03-2005 11:04 PM ET (US)
More directly to you question about the dealer's statement about the 25-HP four-stroke. He is totally wrong. That engine was the only engine actually made by Mercury. There is a new model just out that is a Tohatsu engine which appeared in 2004 and won numerous awards. But Yamaha has nothing to do with it, as far as I can tell from USITC information sources.
rtk posted 08-03-2005 11:24 PM ET (US)
Mercury and Yamaha does supply each other with product. There are some Mercury branded motors that are Yamaha powerheads/various components and Mercury lower units/other various parts.
I have never heard of the Yamaha/Mercury relationship refered to as a joint venture. I think it is just an agreement between two companies to supply product to be used to offer a full line of outboard motors.
Some of the Mercury motors are Yamaha powerheads and Mercury lower legs. The Mercury/Yamaha parts ratio varies from model to model.
There has been alot of discussion on this site regarding this topic.
Check out the search function on this site- you will get alot of results.
Try "Mercaha". I think that is what someone called them.
This time of year is a transition time for pricing and models, at least in my area (New Jersey). In the summer time boats and services are expensive, high demand. Off season pricing is better, and the 13 is one of the Boston Whaler boats they advertise package pricing promotions.
It is a cool boat. I looked very seriously at it for $9,995, the original pricing a couple years ago.
Rich
richvi posted 08-06-2005 04:09 PM ET (US)
Jimh, in your opinion, would my 2005 Mercury 60 HP, 4 stroke, and EFI, assembled in USA in February, have Yamaha pistons and valves? I found your reply interesting and informative. Thank you.
LHG posted 08-08-2005 04:44 PM ET (US)
I don't care what is being said here, the Mercury 30, 40, 50 and 60 HP EFI's are 100% Mercury engines, and not joint venture engines, which was terminated after the 5 years that JimH mentions. Those were only 50 HP engines of the 90's. All Mercury produced 4-stroke engines have SmartCraft and EFI, and the powerheads Yamaha is using for theirs don't. Most say in this power ranges, the Mercury units are the best on the market. So if you're considering a Boston Whaler with one of these engines, don't worry about quality. Yamaha doesn't admit to buying anything from Mercury, but their displacements for these engines are CURIOUSLY the same as the 100% Merc's, only with carbs and no Smartcraft, of course. Honda never admitted using Mercury lower units either. This is just the way the Japanese do things, with ironclad confidentiality agreements. As futher proof these enignes are ALL Mercury, they have just openend up a plant in China to produce them, moving the production from Wisconsin, a fact that many here have complained about. Yamaha has nothing to do with that plant, except to buy the output from Mercury?
The 75, 90 and 115's are COMPLETE Yamaha powerheads, a fact Yamaha brags about as long as there are no problems with them. A year from now, these Merc engines will be upgraded to Verado powerheads, complete with EFI and Smartcraft. Don't know whether the amazing DTS will be an option.
It appears that 4-stroke outboards are rapidly sweeping the market, in all brands. Nobody seems to want to buy a DFI anymore. I even think the Verado package is killing the Mercury market for Optimax. They are SOME machine.
jimh posted 08-08-2005 06:25 PM ET (US)
That four cylinder, 60-HP four-stroke is a nice engine. You have to like a small engine with four cylinders. It ought to run more smoothly than three cylinder engines in the same horsepower range.
The five-year period of co-development split up the design and initial manufacturing. That has long expired and there is no telling who makes what or buys from whom. As LHG mentions, the dimensions seem identical, so you do wonder if they buy some parts from each other. But given the very strained relationship between Yamaha USA and Mercury, it would be surprising to see them cooperating at all in a situation like this.
The irony is that Mercury helped Yamaha come into the North American market decades ago when they brought the Japanese engines in under the Mariner brand.
The outboard industry is quite vertically integrated. These guys even smelt their own aluminum alloys. If you can cast one piston I think you can cast them all. If you think about that, it is quite an accomplishment these days. Most of the really successful businesses are often just design and marketing companies who farm out the actual production. The outboard people still run like they did in the good old days, and they're making their own finished products almost from the raw bauxite ore. It is like what Henry Ford used to do at the Rouge Plant. He'd haul in dirt (iron ore) at one end, and automobiles would come out the other end.
LHG posted 08-09-2005 04:24 PM ET (US)
Correction - Looking over the brand new Merc catalog from the Factory Event, I see the 30HP EFI is no longer built on the 3 cylinder 40HP platform, but rather moved down to the 2 cylinder 25 EFI platform. JimH also indicates this engine is 100% Mercury. With this platform change, the 30 loses Smartcraft instrumentation.
It is also interesting to see that as more Verados come on line, they are billing the 2-stroke DFI Optimax engines as the lower cost "value" engine. Mercury is clearly headed for becoming an all 4-stroke company at some point in time, maybe sooner than later.
They are claiming the new 150 Verado accelerates 15% faster than the Yamaha 150 and 50% faster than the Honda 150.
It's very strange to see a Mercury catalog with no conventional carbureted or EFI 2-strokes at all. The end of an era is at hand

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Author	Topic: "Mercury motors are made by Yamaha"??
Foulweather Jack	posted 08-03-2005 08:11 PM ET (US) Was looking at a new 130 Sport today at our local Whaler dealer. I have a 1996 Outrage 19 with a Yamaha 175 that has performed flawlessly. Having watched my neighbor's Dauntless with a Mercury 150 float helplessly down the river after his motor broke (bad tensioning spring for the belts, after only 12 hours), I'm none too keen on the idea of buying a Mercury. When I mentioned my preference for Yamahas to the salesman, he told me that the internals of the new Mercury 4 strokes were "made by Yamaha" and that they had been "developed as part of a joint venture between Yamaha and Mercury." This sounds fishy to me, so I'm asking for confirmation on this forum. Does anyone know the scoop here? Also, list for a 130 Sport with a 25 Mercury 4 stroke was $11,500. When I looked at the Whaler website last month, that package was quoted for almost exactly $10K. Now, the "build your whaler" page is nowhere to be found anymore, and it's impossible to verify list price online anymore. Can anyone help me with a resource for finding the actual list price? Thanks in advance for your help.
JOHN W MAYO	posted 08-03-2005 08:33 PM ET (US) Dealers response "sounds fishy to me".
Phil Tyson	posted 08-03-2005 09:38 PM ET (US) I think they may be working on updating the site with 2006 information and have disabled the build it feature. Just a guess.
jimh	posted 08-03-2005 11:02 PM ET (US) According to statements made before the United States International Trade Commission (USITC) during the investigation into outboard engine dumping by Japan: The only four-stroke engine which was entirely made by Mercury was a 25-HP model. This pre-dated the introduction of the VERADO engine in February of 2004 The VERADO engines are made by Mercury in their Fond du Lac, Wisconsin factory. Many smaller horsepower four-stroke engines sold under the Mercury brand are made by Tohatsu. Mercury and Tohatsu now have a joint venture in Japan to build some of these engines. This plant just came online this year, I think. In c.1995 Mercury and Yamaha entered into a five year joint venture to develop a four-stroke motor in the 50-HP range. Mercury made the block, Yamaha made the cylinder heads, cams, valves, etc. They each assembled the engines themselves. The joint venture deal expired c.2000. This joint venture engine is now still in production by both Mercury and Yamaha. They may still sell each other some of the parts they make for this engine. There is still some Yamaha content in these engines sold by Mercury. There is likely some Mercury content in the engines sold by Yamaha, but it could just be the block casting. Mercury has purchased thousands of power heads for four-stroke engines in the 75-90-115 HP range from Yamaha and mated them to Mercury mid-sections and lower units, added Mercury electricals, etc. and sold them as Mercury branded engines. These power heads became the subject of bitter negotiations and legal wrangling between Mercury and Yamaha, with the ultimate result that a court order was needed to force Yamaha to continue to sell these components to Mercury. There are many well researched and more detailed articles on this topic in the archives. If you want to learn more, just search them out. All of the above are my recollections based on my extensive reading of the thousands of pages of documents provided in the USITC hearings. The presenters of these documents were subject to criminal prosecution for making false statements. Boat salesmen are not quite put to the same test and are liable to say anything that comes to mind and suits their purpose. No statements made by boat salesmen were used in the preparation of this information, except for some rather startling comments made before the USITC by Mercury dealers who testified on the behalf of the Japanese engine manufacturers.
jimh	posted 08-03-2005 11:04 PM ET (US) More directly to you question about the dealer's statement about the 25-HP four-stroke. He is totally wrong. That engine was the only engine actually made by Mercury. There is a new model just out that is a Tohatsu engine which appeared in 2004 and won numerous awards. But Yamaha has nothing to do with it, as far as I can tell from USITC information sources.
rtk	posted 08-03-2005 11:24 PM ET (US) Mercury and Yamaha does supply each other with product. There are some Mercury branded motors that are Yamaha powerheads/various components and Mercury lower units/other various parts. I have never heard of the Yamaha/Mercury relationship refered to as a joint venture. I think it is just an agreement between two companies to supply product to be used to offer a full line of outboard motors. Some of the Mercury motors are Yamaha powerheads and Mercury lower legs. The Mercury/Yamaha parts ratio varies from model to model. There has been alot of discussion on this site regarding this topic. Check out the search function on this site- you will get alot of results. Try "Mercaha". I think that is what someone called them. This time of year is a transition time for pricing and models, at least in my area (New Jersey). In the summer time boats and services are expensive, high demand. Off season pricing is better, and the 13 is one of the Boston Whaler boats they advertise package pricing promotions. It is a cool boat. I looked very seriously at it for $9,995, the original pricing a couple years ago. Rich
richvi	posted 08-06-2005 04:09 PM ET (US) Jimh, in your opinion, would my 2005 Mercury 60 HP, 4 stroke, and EFI, assembled in USA in February, have Yamaha pistons and valves? I found your reply interesting and informative. Thank you.
LHG	posted 08-08-2005 04:44 PM ET (US) I don't care what is being said here, the Mercury 30, 40, 50 and 60 HP EFI's are 100% Mercury engines, and not joint venture engines, which was terminated after the 5 years that JimH mentions. Those were only 50 HP engines of the 90's. All Mercury produced 4-stroke engines have SmartCraft and EFI, and the powerheads Yamaha is using for theirs don't. Most say in this power ranges, the Mercury units are the best on the market. So if you're considering a Boston Whaler with one of these engines, don't worry about quality. Yamaha doesn't admit to buying anything from Mercury, but their displacements for these engines are CURIOUSLY the same as the 100% Merc's, only with carbs and no Smartcraft, of course. Honda never admitted using Mercury lower units either. This is just the way the Japanese do things, with ironclad confidentiality agreements. As futher proof these enignes are ALL Mercury, they have just openend up a plant in China to produce them, moving the production from Wisconsin, a fact that many here have complained about. Yamaha has nothing to do with that plant, except to buy the output from Mercury? The 75, 90 and 115's are COMPLETE Yamaha powerheads, a fact Yamaha brags about as long as there are no problems with them. A year from now, these Merc engines will be upgraded to Verado powerheads, complete with EFI and Smartcraft. Don't know whether the amazing DTS will be an option. It appears that 4-stroke outboards are rapidly sweeping the market, in all brands. Nobody seems to want to buy a DFI anymore. I even think the Verado package is killing the Mercury market for Optimax. They are SOME machine.
jimh	posted 08-08-2005 06:25 PM ET (US) That four cylinder, 60-HP four-stroke is a nice engine. You have to like a small engine with four cylinders. It ought to run more smoothly than three cylinder engines in the same horsepower range. The five-year period of co-development split up the design and initial manufacturing. That has long expired and there is no telling who makes what or buys from whom. As LHG mentions, the dimensions seem identical, so you do wonder if they buy some parts from each other. But given the very strained relationship between Yamaha USA and Mercury, it would be surprising to see them cooperating at all in a situation like this. The irony is that Mercury helped Yamaha come into the North American market decades ago when they brought the Japanese engines in under the Mariner brand. The outboard industry is quite vertically integrated. These guys even smelt their own aluminum alloys. If you can cast one piston I think you can cast them all. If you think about that, it is quite an accomplishment these days. Most of the really successful businesses are often just design and marketing companies who farm out the actual production. The outboard people still run like they did in the good old days, and they're making their own finished products almost from the raw bauxite ore. It is like what Henry Ford used to do at the Rouge Plant. He'd haul in dirt (iron ore) at one end, and automobiles would come out the other end.
LHG	posted 08-09-2005 04:24 PM ET (US) Correction - Looking over the brand new Merc catalog from the Factory Event, I see the 30HP EFI is no longer built on the 3 cylinder 40HP platform, but rather moved down to the 2 cylinder 25 EFI platform. JimH also indicates this engine is 100% Mercury. With this platform change, the 30 loses Smartcraft instrumentation. It is also interesting to see that as more Verados come on line, they are billing the 2-stroke DFI Optimax engines as the lower cost "value" engine. Mercury is clearly headed for becoming an all 4-stroke company at some point in time, maybe sooner than later. They are claiming the new 150 Verado accelerates 15% faster than the Yamaha 150 and 50% faster than the Honda 150. It's very strange to see a Mercury catalog with no conventional carbureted or EFI 2-strokes at all. The end of an era is at hand