posted 10-27-2009 07:47 AM ET (US)            

I do not recall any verifiable information source regarding the price a dealer pays for a new Boston Whaler boat. I suspect there are many variables in the price, and each dealer may have a different price structure with Boston Whaler.

Several years ago there was a rather odd lawsuit brought against Brunswick which alleged that their technique of setting the price for their products to their dealers was illegal because it was anti-competitive. In the lawsuit a great deal of testimony was presented about how the dealer's price was determined. A substantial influence in the dealer's price was the volume of business the dealer had with Brunswick. It would be no surprise to learn that a similar price structure was offered by Boston Whaler to their dealers.

See http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/history/brunswick.html

posted 10-27-2009 09:36 PM ET (US)            

Meanwhile still looking an answer, anyway you want to cipher it would be fine.

posted 10-27-2009 10:12 PM ET (US)         

Do this every single month for a year so that the readers here will know what is the best month and discount for a "left over" Whaler. And if you have the time, do this for ALL model Whalers. And then post your findings in the Marketplace.

posted 10-27-2009 10:23 PM ET (US)            

As an example, consider the 170 MONTAUK. In 2002 when the 170 MONTAUK was introduced its MSRP was $17,655. In 2009 the boat is selling for $25,900. The price of the boat increased $8,245. That is an increase over the 2002 price of over 46-percent. I do acknowledge there have been some changes in equipment, such as a more expensive engine, but even factoring out the those costs, one feels like the MONTAUK is now selling at a somewhat inflated price compared to its introductory price. One might conclude that perhaps there is more markup in the 2009 MONTAUK than there was in the 2002 MONTAUK.

posted 10-28-2009 07:02 PM ET (US)            

The let me see the invoice game was started by the car dealers with hold backs and other incentives. Do you really think a dealer is going to sell you something at his cost or below and still be able to remain in business?
Instead of trying to make the boat dealers play similar games why not negotiate on your own two feet and strike a deal that suits you and allows your dealer to stay in business to service you and others in the future. The best price isn't going to be the best deal if you have a problem down the line and the dealer isn't around to help you. A PITA bottom feeding customer isn't going to keep the lights on and settle the payroll. Dealers know this can usually smell this kind of customer coming and really don't want that kind of business. Might want to rethink your approach tactics there Alphonse hence you'll crash before the landing.

posted 10-28-2009 09:43 PM ET (US)            

At the end of the day, I want to be in a position to figure out the margins and pay a reasonable price when I buy a boat.

posted 10-28-2009 09:50 PM ET (US)         

With that kind of negative attitude I bet your sitting with a yard full of boats while the PITA customer is driving a boat he bought from your competitor.

posted 10-29-2009 12:17 AM ET (US)            

But at least I answered the damn question.

PS - In my humble - I don't think seeking 30-35% off is unreasonable. More is better, But 20-25% off with some tempting goodies might tempt me good too. [and I aint talking here's a tube for the kids either... I'm talking canvas, electronics and creature-comfort options]

Discount negotiable depending on how bad I wanted to get on the water in a tricked-out Whaler. But that's just me -

Also just me - Look into dealer-direct maintenance/parts/servicing agreements; 'x' amount off/reduced/guaranteed after-sale support fee schedules you may be able to negotiate, free 1st season boat/trailer service, maybe they'll detail your boat as part of routine service for YOU, whatever etc). Heck even replacement plug-and-play Karavan trailer lights that like to go out and cost a little more than a light bulb - which are nowadays expensive enough in their own right.

Depending on Model, but regardless of model as well, Aim for 25-30% with goodies or some sort of after market agreement for support or 30-35% out the door and see what you can get for the honest-to-goodness MOST dollar you want to spend on a Whaler of any model - and then ask yourself if you really need all that and can you get away with less and still be happy (and maybe still spend all that money, but on a trailed-Whaler weekend get away somewhere; taking someone(s) special along with that new Whaler makes it better - I know. Been There. Done That. Still Cherish the memories and still have the T-shirt with all our smiling faces on it and we all cherish that too - My T-shirt - who-da thunk it just buying a Whaler....?

posted 10-29-2009 06:42 AM ET (US)            

In the interest of full disclosure, I am the accessories manager and warranty manager for a good sized (and currently successful) boat dealer. We are adding 3 new lines of boats for the 2010 season, while not dropping any of our current lines! I do not do boat sales but do a lot of accessory and rigging out sales. This is where the most absurd internet competition is.

Several times this year (twice yesterday) I have had customers interested in either trolling motors or electronics who have challenged my pricing with internet pricing. Yesterday, I had 2 customers (?) who were interested in the same Motor Guide SW 55 hand bow motor. I sell these for $517.50 and have it in stock. One man found out about the motor on Wal-Marts web site and could get it for $499 there. I will not match that price because I am only making 12% +/- on the average trolling motor sale. I asked him if it was worth $18.50 to have a knowledgeble dealer back the product. He will be bringing in his boat Friday morning so I can look at it with him and determine if his chosen motor will even work on his boat.

On electronics, if I make 10% on it it is a killer deal. We can only survive on these kind of margins if we can earn long term business from these customers and get the service/installation side of the business.

I had another customer who wanted a Minn Kota trolling motor that I was selling for about $1,310. He was insisting on getting a big discount from that price. Knowing he was a businessman who carried inventory for resale, I asked him what percentage profit he would require to sell a similar valued product to a repeat customer. He stated that he would have to make at least 15% profit to make the sale. At this point I showed him my cost structure, and that a 15% profit margin would have me selling the product to him for $1,385. At this point he pulled out his credit card and I ordered it for him at $1,310. By the way there is no back end money on this product.

So gentlemen, please step forward and tell us all what profit margin we should be able to live on??? To make it more interesting please separate your comments into 2 sections, one for boats and one for accesories.

posted 10-29-2009 08:38 AM ET (US)            

Let me just relate my engine purchase from Lockeman's Hardware and Boats a couple years ago.

Dave Zammit and I spoke for some time about the E-TEC 90's I wanted to purchase. We talked about (and e-mailed back and forth) the accessories, rigging, etc. We settled on a price and I said do it.

A week or so later, we met in person to finalize the deal (and for me to pay before he delivered the motors). That morning, we sat down at his counter and he asked what price we agreed to. I told him and he said..."Oh, I think we can shave that a tad more..."

Sure - it was about $100/motor less, but that sure made me feel pretty good about it. I'm sure I paid more than the Internet for gauges, controls, etc. But then again, that first morning solo run out on a cold and rough Lake Michigan really made me appreciate Dave when I called his cell phone because the starboard motor "no oil" alarm was sounding. (This turned out to be some left over air bubbles in the oil system that he talked me through right there on the phone. Problem solved).

I buy all of my oil from Dave and try to buy "something" every time I stop by - even if it's just something small. He also has my service work (not that I need much right now - but I imagine this will pay off for him as I get some serious hours on the motors and we start to wear parts out).

He also has my return business. I recently completed a project boat for my Brother. It had a 1968 trailer under it and needed a new one. Guess who is a ShoreLand'r dealer?

Bingo.

posted 10-29-2009 11:00 AM ET (US)         

By the time I'm talking to a salesperson I have done my homework and know what ballpark I'm willing to play in.

Last new car I bought was more or less bought over the phone. Called three dealers and asked about a specific vehicle listed on their websites. Two of them would not give me a bottom line number on the phone. No trade-in involved either. Financing was already taken care of also.

The third called me back with a number that was in the park. Made the deal that evening for a bit less then the phone quoted bottom line number.

It's been my experience for that every salesperson who is willing to deal for a reasonable profit there a five who will make you work real hard and are more then willing to take as much as they can get from the sheepish and uninformed.

posted 10-29-2009 12:59 PM ET (US)         

The three dealers I called are located within 50 miles of my home. The one I ended up doing business with is the closest one to my home.

I'm as "buy local" as anyone.

Do you think one should support a business that one does not feel treats you fairly just because that business is local?

And while were at it... who's to say what defines "community"?

Is it neighborhood? Town/City? State? Region? Country? Continent? Planet?

Sorry, I won't feel guilty about not supporting a business that has absolultely no interest in supporting me back.

posted 10-29-2009 01:42 PM ET (US)            

I don't live in Detroit. Grand Rapids is the second largest city in Michigan and has a very good long-term outlook. We have excellent schools, great local and nearby colleges, a strong life-sciences sector, high-tech manufacturing, great churches and wonderful parks. Add to that, we've been blessed to be near the Sunset Coast of Michigan, with white sand beaches, beautiful dunes and deep blue fresh water.

Despite what you might THINK about Michigan, there really is a lot to celebrate in the Great Lakes State.

We do have our challenges, but I'm sticking around to help work on those. This is my state. My community.

GNR -

Buying soley on price fails to take into effect any value that might be created by your dealer. He or she has no incentive to create any value other than that created by the manufacturer of the products they sell if they have 100% customers with your attitude of "price trumps all". WalMart can come in and beat nearly anybody on price in the retail world - and they often do. There is nothing wrong with Wal-Mart, except that you've sent your dollars to Arkansas instead of supporting your local retailer who is a member of the chamber of commerce, supports the local Kiwanis club, gives to his church, advertises in the local high school sports and drama programs, etc...

I agree with you that if they are not creating any additional value, go to a different local dealer - that's what business is all about. But this cutthroat price point only decision making is a cancer on our community. As was pointed out above, Just because you pay $18.50 more for a product doesn't mean you got taken.

posted 10-29-2009 02:36 PM ET (US)            

However, For my part in this discussion - I did answer that I was clueless on the mark up - yes, yes, clueless about a lot of things - ha, ha. :-} thppt. I'm just saying in my experience, I got a great deal on my Whaler in the height of the season and I'm sure there are better deals to be had on leftovers. And I'm talking about list (MSRP), not dealer invoice.

Am I that far off base from anyone else's perceived reality?

Max

posted 10-29-2009 03:38 PM ET (US)         

I called three dealers and did business with the only one who seemed to want my business and I am selfish and the cause of the economic problems we are currently suffering? LOL

Also, the thread was started about boats and I shifted it slightly to include a similiar big ticket item and you're talking about Walmart, pizza and trolling motors?

I'm sure you can se the apples and orangishness of that?

Sticking to big ticket items... I'm not looking for any dealer added value. What "value" could the dealer possibly add beyond givng me the lowest price he can? I do my own maintenance (using better fluids etc then the dealer does) so a free car wash at every oil change doesn't do much for me. I'd prefer to wash my own vehicles anyways. A free oil change or two? Well that has some value, maybe 50 bucks worth. The free 27 point safety inspection? LOL. Come on man.

I use a local guy for service after the warranty runs out. Why? Because the dealer's shop always seemes to be staffed by unhappy, low payed mechanics who HAVE to get the job done in the time specified by THE BOOK or the service department loses money. You do know that most sales and service operations are usually operated as two seperate "profit centers" don't you? I found a good local mechanic specifically because I got sick and tired of the bumbling and fumbling of the dealership service centers.

If I'm not mistaken you aren't quite as rural as I am here so you may have more competion to chose from which of course keeps people honest. 20 Years ago if you wanted to do any sort of building project you had one option for materials within 30 miles. The place was closed on weekends and if you weren't a contractor spending big bucks you had a hard time getting service. Funny thing happened when Home Depot came to the area. Suddenly the local place was open on Saturdays. You couldn't get ten feet in the door without staff asking how they could help you and the prices came down. I spent 500 bucks there last weekend buying materials to build a deck. Instead of letting HD put them out of business they figured out how to survive and prosper.

The one time I made the mistake of buying a Subaru I tried to do business with the local dealer. The difference here is, they are the only dealer within reasonable a distance and they would even budge a bit off sticker. Come on man! I should support that?!

posted 10-29-2009 04:04 PM ET (US)            

I am talking about supporting your community/local economy.

posted 10-29-2009 04:43 PM ET (US)            

I fully understand (and support) the concept of buying locally. But for me there's a limit to what I'll pay as a premium for buying locally.

Many years ago I was ready to purchase a 23' Velocity boat. I had done my homework and knew exactly what I wanted. I went to the local dealer and asked for their "bottom line".

I then went to a boat show asked a dealer there for his price. It was $4,000.00 less. I signed the purchase contract. When I later told the local dealer I was purchasing the boat elsewhere he was incredulous I wasn't willing to spend four grand more to buy it from him.

posted 10-29-2009 05:10 PM ET (US)            

I recently traveled 250 miles to buy a new car for three reasons:
1- Local dealers refused to look for a manual trans saying nobody wants one.
2- Price was almost $2500. less than local.
3- Salesman made me feel good about giving them my hard earned money.

So this salesman did a lot of extra legwork to find exactly what I wanted and never complained at all. By the way, it took me a month to finally settle on them. When I thanked him for being so diligent and patient he said, "That's my job." We did this deal all over internet / phone and when we got there the dealership welcomed me, my wife and our big dog like we were family. This experience was far better than I could have even hoped for. When we left I asked how they could sell the car for so much less than my local dealer (who is the highest volume dealer in the area). He said, "Business is slow and all but we really hope you'll consider us when you're ready to buy another car."
I told him you can count on it.
They know I won't be there for service but I will for another car.

As far as the Whaler is concerned, I bought a bow cushion from a dealer a state away for half what the local dealer was charging. It was dropped shipped so no added value there.

posted 10-29-2009 08:28 PM ET (US)            

Maybe Whaler should just do away with the dealer network entirely. They could set up a delivery service and simply drop the boats at the customer's door. Of course that would upset a lot of the dealers that have worked very hard to earn their customer's business and have remained in business even in the tough times. To heck with them and their families afterall this is the new era the power of the now 40 year old Internet assures that every consumer be informed. Whaler needs to recognize the reality that all future customers will base their buying decisions on price and price alone. Whaler is probably unaware that they are even losing present and future customers due to the arrogance of the local dealer network and their unwillingness to give boats away at or below what was paid for them.

The real reality is Alphonse posted here because he wants to know the dealer invoice for a new Whaler. Why? Well because he wants to negotiate a price as close to that number as possible. If Alphonse was to get a deal below that number even better. Plain and simple Alphonse wants to do what is best for Alphonse. I get it. You go get em Alphonse go forward and negotiate the best deal you can. But at the end of the drivel it looks like you are going to leave this discussion no more well informed than you entered it. You may just need to walk into a dealership or two or three or four and ask for a number. Something I am guessing you may have already done and weren't happy with the result.

posted 10-30-2009 06:55 AM ET (US)            

Thanks to Buckda and Stinger230R for your supportive comments.

Is there any one of you other commenters even willing to try to answer this question? If not I will assume that you do not understand the financial requirements to operate a business successfully.

You complain about faceless corporations taking over your local dealerships. If this is happening to you, try looking in the mirror, with any luck at all you might possibly catch a glimpse of the primary cause of local dealerships getting taken over by faceless corporations.

I live in a geographical area that is greatly impacted by Ed's Marine and Chatlee. There are many of their customers that show up at our dealership. They usually say that they bought at the other dealerships for the lower price and now expect me to correct rigging problems and warranty concerns on the spot. Sometimes the "lower price" is less than the cost of gas to make 2 trips to the other dealerships. They are usually agressive type A personalities and expect me to drop everything to help them. Sounds like some of you guys posting on this thread to me!

One other thought: do not assume that a big discount from a "list price" means anything. About 8 years ago when I was in upstate New York, working for my first time selling boats, my dealership had 7 leftover pontoon boats of a brand not well known in that area. These boats had a suggested list price and were actually priced at dealer invoice to try and get them off the floor plan to stop the cash bleeding. None sold. The next spring, we adjusted the suggested list price to a ridiculous level, put on a 40% discount and sold all 7 at a 15% profit within a month. The customer had perceived more value in the boat than previously and thought they had gotten a great price. Ironically, several of them came in with copies of internet searches to support their purchases. They were some of the happiest customers and every single one gave us a 100% CSI score.

Back to the issue at hand. What is an appropriate percentage of profit for a boat dealer to earn?

posted 10-30-2009 08:29 AM ET (US)         

quote:

---

The next spring, we adjusted the suggested list price to a ridiculous level, put on a 40% discount and sold all 7 at a 15% profit within a month.

---

LOL

And you wonder why.....

Many businesses, including the one I work for would be ecstatic with a 15% margin.

Well said Alphonse. There is a reason that big ticket item sales people have the stereotype they do. It has been well earned over a long period of time. The "information age" has leveled the playing field and it appears some of them don't like that.

posted 10-30-2009 11:03 AM ET (US)            

The better the deals given (closer to invoice) the more volume will move. Dealers will move more boats off their showroom floor sooner which could make room for more inventory, new models etc. Whaler owners are the best sales people out there.

posted 10-30-2009 01:18 PM ET (US)            

Any more ideas on a reasonable markup?

posted 10-30-2009 02:20 PM ET (US)            

On a big ticket item like a boat, the dealer very often finances the purchase. The longer that item stays in stock, the higher the dealer's true cost for that particular unit will go. If you keep adding the interest costs (as well as a monthly factor for overhead), and then add a "reasonable profit" to the boat, the price for a two or three year old model would be higher than the price for a brand new boat. We all know that's not the reality of pricing in the marketplace. The older the stock gets, the more likely it is that the dealer will offer a significant discount.

When dealerships "shop" for the products they stock in their stores, they shop by price. They look for volume discounts, they look for the cheapest financing, and they look for other ways to save money as well. A lot of business in my area right now are attempting to re-negotiate their leases with their landlords because there is a major commercial real estate slump going on here. Why aren't customers supposed to be able to do the same thing? If a dealer has a boat that has been sitting in inventory for over a year, there's a good chance it will cost the dealer a lot less to sell the boat at a small loss now rather than trying to sell it for a "reasonable profit" and getting stuck with it for another year.

Dave, your analogy about buying locally is pretty weak. Brunswick/Boston Whaler don't make any effort to buy the products they put into their boats locally. They look for the lowest bidder to supply the products at an acceptable quality level. If that means offshoring the business, so be it.

posted 10-30-2009 03:34 PM ET (US)            

One of the things I learned in an advanced economic course in college was to always assume that people are always motivated by self-interest. Even when people give to charity, they are it doing it because it makes them feel good. People will only give money to a charity to the point where the joy of giving an additional dollar is outweighed by the joy of keeping that dollar.

Regarding Dave's "buy local" and "support the Mom & Pop shops" ideology, the same analysis applies. Dave likes to support certain businesses because it makes Dave feel good. For instance, Dave feels better about spending a little more for an E-Tec at Lockeman's than he would feel about buying the same motor for a little less at a different store. And there's nothing wrong with that. We all do the same thing.

I also like to support local businesses and Mom & Pop shops. In fact, my family owns a small, local grocery store. Their inventory, selection, and prices cannot compete with the inventory, selection, and prices of the larger, superstore-type grocery stores in the area. Nevertheless, I buy my groceries there whenever I can. They also have many other customers. Why do people shop there when the prices are higher and the selection is smaller? For many reasons - it's more convenient for them, they get better service, they don't have to wait in line at the cash register, etc. All of these reasons, however, amount to the same thing - the customers are motivated by self-interest. When they weigh all of the factors they consider in making their grocery shopping decision, choosing that particular store seems like the best choice for them.

When I support many of the small local businesses in my area, one of my motivations is that I like to have a number of different options. If I buy a case of beer once a week from a local party store for a slightly higher price rather than buying it from the nearest superstore for a slightly lower price, that party store is more likely to remain in business. Then, some day in the future when I need a bag ice in hurry, the party store will there, and I won't have to go all the way to the superstore to get a bag of ice.

Now, getting back to the original theme of this thread, Alphonse's purchasing decision appears to more strongly motivated by price than by many of the other factors which other participants have suggested should be considered. For instance, brisboats and Lil Whaler Lover seem to be more concerned about the dealership making a reasonable profit than about getting a good price. Dave seems to be more concerned about supporting local businesses or Mom & Pop shops than getting the lowest price. And BlueMax seems have struck a balance somewhere in between - he wants a good price, but he also wants the dealership to make some money. In reality, I suspect that BlueMax doesn't really care if the dealership makes some money. What BlueMax really cares about is wasting any more of his time or effort trying to haggle a few extra dollars out of the dealer. Each of these people have a difference balance or mix of what satisfies their own self-interest. Alphonse is at one end of the spectrum, and the others are somewhere else along the spectrum.

And getting back to economics, it is important to realize that the Alphonse will not pay any more than he really wants to pay for the boat. He is motivated by self-interest, and he will only agree to a deal that makes him happy. The dealership is also motivated by self-interest, and will not sell a boat for any less than it really wants to sell the boat for. Unless both parties agree on the price, the sale will not take place. If the sale does take place, we can assume that both parties were happy with the price.

posted 10-30-2009 03:45 PM ET (US)            

I could care less what they charge. If they are participating in my community or a community that is important to me, and they aren't gouging me on price and provide quality customer service, they have my vote and my increasingly devalued dollar.

Every business is about people. It doesn't matter if you sell parts to the space shuttle or lolly pops to neighborhood kids from the local corner store.

posted 10-30-2009 03:54 PM ET (US)            

They don't care if your neighborhood is safe. They don't care if your schools have toilet paper or pencils or whatever (incidentally, neither does the government. I buy a lot of stuff for a friend who is a Chicago Public Schools teacher and it is a complete dereliction of duty on the part of the City of Chicago and the public schools system there.).

The "fat" that is found in a reasonable profit from local merchants fills all of these gaps and so many more. Wonder why people slip through the gaps in our society with increasing, frightening frequency? The gaps are getting bigger. Big brother wants to fill them but they don't have enough money. You will pay to fill those gaps. Either buy the "value added" from local businesses for reasonable profits - and get something in return: service, community, contacts, future business partners and customers (?) - or cut to the bone and pay more in taxes while your government tries (in it's own blunderous, wasteful, inefficient ways) to fill those gaps. I'm not just talking about the obvious social programs that are in place, growing or on deck. I'm talking beyond that.

Everything is connected.

Hate to quote this guy, but it's an interesting thought. Jerry Falwell used to say you can give to God with your offerings, or God will take it (from fewer blessings, moments of grace, etc). I don't think I believe that to be theologically sound - but it sure is true when it comes to community.

Support your local community (demand service, value, etc - fine - but shop locally first), or be left with some poor government funded facsimile of a community.

posted 10-30-2009 04:03 PM ET (US)            

It was before and now look at us. It's about US. Your community, your town, your state, your country. That is true whether you live in Ethiopia or the USA. New Zeland or Madagascar.

Unless you are planning to leave that community, everything you do (or don't do) for that community effects you and your neighbor and the rest of the community.

It's not about you anymore. It's not about me anymore. It's about us.

If that means I pay a tad more today to avoid getting the bejesus taxed out of me in 30 years to make up for what I "saved" today, I'll spend a tad more and support a local merchant who will buy my nephew's band candy. I'll support a company in my state that will donate to jobs training so my fellow citizens on the East side can move on from a dead end factory job that is no more to something that can put food on their table. I'll support an American company that supports someone else's community and supports someone else's son or daughter's drama club play.

Is it selfish? Yes. I Don't want to live in a communist country. I don't want to have government come in and take over because the local community couldn't do it. I don't want that.

posted 10-30-2009 04:36 PM ET (US)            

I think most dealers still operate under the notion that boat buyers have deep pockets. Some do but, many do not. We make many sacrifices throughout the year in order to live on the water and own a boat.

We own a business and we hustle to remain profitable. We turn around jobs in hours not days by working well into the evening and on weekends. We realize that the primadonna approach to business does not work these days. Clients and customers want to feel like you're going the extra mile for them and giving them preferential treatment. But remember, it's the perceived value of the deal that is the most important.

I just received some accessories for my Whaler from one of the vendors on the list. They are 1200 miles away from me. I will install them myself. They were a pleasure to deal with AND charged what I believed was a FAIR price.
Notice I didn't say cheap because it wasn't.
But, I am a happy camper.

posted 10-30-2009 05:34 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

...and before someone comments that we've gone from buying a boat to systems of government; think back to your basic civics courses. What is citizenship? It's not about you.

It was before and now look at us. It's about US. Your community, your town, your state, your country. That is true whether you live in Ethiopia or the USA. New Zeland or Madagascar.

Unless you are planning to leave that community, everything you do (or don't do) for that community effects you and your neighbor and the rest of the community.

---

WTH does citizenship have to do with the % profit the local dealer is trying to stick a buyer with?

As I said..it's not my job to make my Whaler dealer is competitive. If he can't do it...someone else will come in and do it. That's in my community--there will still be a market. My dealer going out of business, making room for someone else who can or will sell at a lower price point, won't change that.

You make it sound like I should have happily paid the $6-7K more my local dealer wanted for my Whaler than what I ended up paying from a dealer 800 miles away. Would that have made the faceless Hall Marine group dealership a "better citizen"? Hardly..it would have just made them some more money--more of MY money. Wasting my money doesn;t get me any brownie points anywhere.

posted 10-30-2009 05:38 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

SC Joe, if your local dealer is a prudent businessman he will be very interested in you having a job. You are his customer and part of his lifeline. If you and others in his area are successful in your jobs, his business will be better for it. He knows this.

---

He may know it..but he doesn't seem to care. Else..he would have been able to shave off the $6-7K a dealer 800 miles away was able to do and stay profitable.

posted 10-30-2009 05:46 PM ET (US)            

The post thread has moved to the thought pattern: Best price, period.

That thinking is flawed.

Your best value may not be reflected in the absolute lowest price you can find.

I expect businesses to compete and be competitive with each other. That will result in fairly low prices. But there comes a point where you must buy based on a number of factors.

Every day, I can go to WalMart and get things for less money than I can at a local hardware store, grocery store, sporting goods shop, lawn and garden center, etc.

1. How might buying from them at the expense of my local retailers harm me? At what cost?
2. How might spending $5 extra (that I can afford) at local retailers help my community? How does it harm me?

I'm just saying - everything you do is connected to someone else. It is about those connections, not soley about you.

I realize I'm pissing in the wind here, and it's clear that I'm getting pee all over my pants, but it doesn't change the truth. It is not about you, and it is not about me. it is about you and me. Leave me out, and you will eventually suffer for what I might provide to you and your family in the future.

Think bigger than you.

posted 10-30-2009 05:51 PM ET (US)            

Yep..it sure would have.

posted 10-30-2009 06:13 PM ET (US)            

That thinking is only flawed to you and those who think like you. It is not universally flawed, especially for those who are happiest when they negotiate the lowest price no matter what happens after the sale. I happen to agree that the lowest price is not always the best deal, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

posted 10-30-2009 08:20 PM ET (US)            

Thanks again to the member of the board that sent me a private message with the answer in it!

I was informed and bought the boat.

The dealer wasn't thrilled with the deal and neither was I. But since neither of us was too frustrated, that means we landed in a fair place. He did not take a loss and made a fair margin. He just didn't get to be unreasonable.

posted 10-30-2009 09:53 PM ET (US)         

Especially after reading all that his question hath wrought...

Then again, maybe it wasn't such a great answer after all; seems he has purchased his undisclosed model BW boat for an undisclosed deal that we know he is "not thrilled about". How good an answer could it be if it left you making a deal you are not completely happy about? What happened - did the dealer say "Hey, you know my exact invoice and mark up, that's great - you also know the exact price I'm asking for the boat, now do you want to buy it or not?" And after not much haggling Alphonse said, gulp, I may be an informed buyer but I am just a buyer none the less, and I really do want that boat so...... okay, I'll pay your "final" price anyway; and walked out thinking Geez, that would be like a really good deal that I should be excited about if only I hadn't come in thinking I knew exactly what they paid and what I could get away with paying them for it. Now I will not enjoy my New Boston Whaler as much over the years as I will always keep wanting the "little better deal" cause I know they could have based upon what I think they paid.

Guess a "thoroughly informed" buyer does not always make for a very happy buyer. I'm sorry, "thrilled" buyer.

posted 10-31-2009 09:18 AM ET (US)         

Yesterday my buddy goes over to the local auto accessory outlet to pick up something he ordered from them. He, like me, likes to do business locally and is willing to pay a REASONABLE premium understanding that the local guys don't have the buying power to compete with the mega marts.

He researched this particular item and then got the local outfit's price and had them order it for him.

He picks it up and they had forgotten to remove the shipping label.

They ordered it themselves from the same online outlet that my buddy would have ordered it from had he not decided to support the local guy. He got to pay about 20% more plus local and state sales tax and they hit him for a small "dropship fee" ta boot.

posted 10-31-2009 06:32 PM ET (US)            

I want to thank my new found friend at the Whaler Store for helping me out, his advice was spot on. I owe him a good bottle of wine.
Alphonse

posted 11-01-2009 07:27 AM ET (US)            

Don't try and convince me that the post classic Boston Whalers hold their value. One dealer offered 16K, said he could only offer the wholesale price because of a "sale" he had going on. The same dealer I purchased the boat from new and who serviced the boat every year.

So for 3 summers and less than 150 hours on a well maintained 170 Montauk costs around 9K. Haven't added into the mix all the Mills covers and a GPS I purchased after sale.

posted 11-01-2009 07:33 AM ET (US)         

That it has been working exactly that way since the beginning of man's venture into bartering aside, How ironic that the more things change (Internet, market research etc), the more they remain the same - how much is one willing to pay for an item and how much is the other willing to take. And what/how much do both think they can get for what they offer.

Make sure you research that wine first - go to a good bottle of wine dot com and ask what the vintner's price and your local seller's mark up is so you can offer the seller the (in your mind) very least profit margin - wouldn't want you to pay some faceless corporation a dollar too much for someone else's enjoyment -

And POST a picture of that boat!!!! You owe is that much ;-)

posted 11-01-2009 08:25 AM ET (US)            

If your dealer were to offer you $20K for your boat, and invests whatever he needs to in order to re-sell the boat, do you think he could re-sell the boat for say $23K and make even a small profit?

posted 11-01-2009 09:04 AM ET (US)         

So - Now that we have settled that Alphonse knows the secret answer and it is no secret that he is "not thrilled" about it....

What is standard Dealer Mark Down on a trade-in and then how much do they Mark it Up for re-sale? And can I gets me a newer used Whaler for under 16k?

What a thread, includes treatises on Patriotism, Community Loyalty and Grandiose Economics in the Internet Age - all to say... um,

"Just make a deal that makes you happy" ?

Wow!

posted 11-01-2009 09:51 AM ET (US)            

I went to the dealer where my Whaler was purchased and asked to buy a trailer for it. Their response, "We don't like to sell just trailers."
My response, "No problem, I'll take my 2 grand elsewhere."
Seems everybody wants to make the quick and large buck these days.
That's fine. I don't absolutely NEED a trailer so I can afford to shop around and get one when I get one.
Slow and steady wins every time.

posted 11-01-2009 11:29 AM ET (US)            

Ed'smarine superstore has a business model that sells on price alone. Granted they do a large amount of business but search the Internet and you will find the biggest complaint about them is poor service and lack of any service after the sale. Things inevitably come up, hulls and motors are under warranty and a reputable dealer that will work though these things expeditiously and professionally has an added value after the boat is purchased. If that dealer is in close proximity to your home even better. To buy big ticket items based on price alone it will only be a matter of time before we will be buying from the "superstores". Some of this community have no problem with that but I do. Peruse the isles of your local Walmart and you will see that several items are not cheaper than what you should be paying for them.

Interesting to me is now that Alphonse has satisfied himself he doesn't want to share his experience. Perhaps it is again the fear that he may have "blindly overpaid". The same fear that drove him to gather as much information as possible before his purchase. This is the same fear that drives professionals that typically make over $100 an hour to spend countless hours and accumulate 100's if not 1000's of miles of driving to save what may amount to less than $1,000 in savings when buying a big ticket item. To some it maybe the thrill of the hunt but to me it is simply an ego that cannot tolerate a cocktail conversation that they may have paid to much for an item. A sad misallocation of resources to me. Someone will get a better deal on a new Montauk this Winter and someone will get a worse one, so be it, life will go on. Having the exact dealer cost really doesn't matter if you have confidence in yourself and can negotiate your own deals. When you order a large pizza today take solace in the fact that it cost less than $2 to make.

posted 11-01-2009 01:10 PM ET (US)         

rich/Binkie

posted 11-01-2009 03:47 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I have been looking at bigger whalers and other boats recently. I asked about a trade in for my 2006 170 Montauk. I paid in the 20's for boat, 90 hp motor and trailer (less than 150 hours and launched in 2007) .

Don't try and convince me that the post classic Boston Whalers hold their value. One dealer offered 16K, said he could only offer the wholesale price because of a "sale" he had going on. The same dealer I purchased the boat from new and who serviced the boat every year.

So for 3 summers and less than 150 hours on a well maintained 170 Montauk costs around 9K. Haven't added into the mix all the Mills covers and a GPS I purchased after sale.

Might be worth it to move to Lake Lanier where I can use the boat so much more. LOL

---

Actually..that's not a bad trade.

I was offered only $2K more for my 2008 Whaler and trailer with <60 hours, many factory options (console covers, rear jumpseats, am/fm/cd, VHF,fishing package,bow cushions,bimini top, Smartcraft enabled Northstar chartplotter)on a trade for a new Grady.

posted 11-01-2009 05:14 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I think most folks would be surprised as to how much "mark-up" is necessary to stay in business with a reasonable expectation to grow, and pocket a profit consistent with the level of risk undertaken. My experience has seen reasonable mark-up in the neighborhood of 50% - 100%. Those willing to often risk everything as a business owner deserve more than a pittance of profit.

---

They "deserve" it, do they?

They deserve what they are able to make; if someone else is able to offer a similar product at a competitive price...than what do they "deserve"?

posted 11-01-2009 07:14 PM ET (US)            

How much "pittance" is OK? 1%? 50%? 100%?

Shouldn't the market determine that?