posted 08-04-2010 07:33 PM ET (US)        

People talk about this or that brand of oil that smokes less, (and costs more, naturally), but does that mean you don't occasionally go through a de-carboning process? I would do that anyway, no matter what oil I was using.

I just barely a month ago, sold my first ever boat, a little 13.5' fiberglass skiff with a 1959 Johnson Super Seahorse, 35hp. It runs like a top, even though it spent its entire life in ocean duty, and the previous owner was a 21-year-old kid, who would fill up every tank he could get his hands on and a couple of buddies and be gone all day long, diving and surfing and fishing and drinking. The new owner fishes all the time. He loves it, too. Well, one day about a year ago, I launch her at the dock right here in the Santa Barbara harbor. Parked right next to me was a guy also with a small'ish boat, (14-17 footer), but with nice, shiny new 4-stroke Merc. Maybe he was just socially awkward, and didn't know anything cool to say, but he asked if I could hold off starting my motor until he shoved off, because "I know that old thing will smoke like crazy". Jeez, man-up a little, mmbrah! And he was a big, tough, tradesman-looking, nouveau-riche, who looked like he made it big in drywall contracting or something, and retired early. I just frowned at him, and of course, would NOT have honored his request, but for the fact that I wasn't ready to start up and shove off, anyway, (had to go get some frozen squid). Notwithstanding the fact that he had more money in his motor alone than I had in both of my boats (with good working motors), combined, I wonder where his shiny new motor will be when it is 50 years old like my old OMC big twin?

posted 08-04-2010 08:00 PM ET (US)            

I like a little two smoke it keeps the bugs away and smells just fine. Always reminds me of my first dirt bike and riding along the railroad tracks on a dew misted morning. The unhardy souls that complain about nausea and headaches probably would do better clammed up ashore in climate control.

posted 08-04-2010 11:58 PM ET (US)            

Another boat had launched just ahead of us. It was still dark, and I think the owner was waiting for a little more light before cutting loose from the dock. I don't remember what hull his engine was mounted on, but his outboard was a Honda. He had started it and was idling at the dock watching us launch.

After launching, all three of us torched off our old two smokes for a little warm up time before cutting loose from the dock. My brother in law is a little leary of oil injection systmems on old outboards and has eliminated the system on his motor. You can imagine how smokey the 50:1 mix can be, then add the other two V-6 two stroked idling, all in a line.

The gentleman with the Honda was looking at us with an incredulous expression on his face, so I asked him.....Can your motor run OK with all this smoke in the air?

We all had a pretty good laugh over it.

I have only owned one four stroke outboard, an early 7.5 Honda. It was a good running engine, although I sold it after a couple of years due to the heavy weight and the fact that it didn't seem like it was going to hold up to the incessant salt water use I subjected it to.

I like two strokes.

posted 08-05-2010 10:01 AM ET (US)            

I just went from a DFI two stroke to a four stroke. Frankly there is little difference in the amount of smoke produced but I did use 100% synthetic oil in the two stroke. Odor is another matter. The two stroke, at idle and at start up, would produce your beloved two stroke smell. While the smell was not awful I can't describe it as desirable. The four stroke also produces a small odor at start up but none at idle.

Admit it, guys. All else being equal, given the choice of lots of smoke vs. virtually no smoke you would choose not to have smoke.

posted 08-05-2010 11:10 AM ET (US)            

What brand of DFI 2-stroke? My Evinrude DFI 2-strokes don't have any 2-stroke smell at start up. I miss it but get the craving for 2-stroke smoke satisfied whenever I light up the Johnson 150 on my Outrage 18. I started 2-stroke smoking as a youngster and I have to say it's a hard habit to quit. ;)

posted 08-05-2010 11:23 AM ET (US)            

I run a early 90's Lawnboy(OMC made 2 cycle), Echo 2 cycle blower, Echo 2 cycle weed wacker, Echo 2-cycle hedge trimmer. (and a chainsaw or two that are also 2 cycle)

Needless to say, when the oil goes on sale, I stock up and save. :)

The current motor I have (a yamaha outboard (1997 ox66 225)) smokes a bit on startup/warmup but really isnt too bad. I had a late 80's Johnson that would smoke on startup, while it was running and still trickeled out when it was off.

Pulling that old Johnson into a resturant with dockside parking was a bit rough. When the wind was blowing towards the resturant I got LOTS of stares. I am sure I shortened the lives of those patrons who were sitting downwind of that motor as I pulled in. :)

Needless to say... that old motor started, ran and performed faithfully until I sold that boat. (saw the boat recently with its current owner, same old engine, same old smoker, LOL)

I love those 2 cycles for their simplicity and strong power. Long live 2 strokes!!!

posted 08-05-2010 11:30 AM ET (US)            

I think alot of 4 stroke guys who got into boating in recent years never knew how light, fast and fun 2 strokes are, because they weren't around when they were the industry standard.

posted 08-05-2010 01:26 PM ET (US)            

Tohsgib sez:

quote:

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IWhen you blow a powerhead TWICE because of a lean carb(and there are 6 of them) you will probably change your mind.

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Possibly, but this has not happened to me yet, nor does it seem to be a common occurrence in the various forums. I will poke around amongst the 2-stroke die hards though and see what turns up. I also reckon you can have that happen at least twice before you approach the cost of a 4-stroke. But that's a guess.

quote:

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When you get twice the mileage from the same $3.50 gallon of gas you will probably change your mind.

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This is purely a case of usage habits. In two years of boating, I've only used more than 6 gallons in a day, once, and that was in my "big engine" boat. Most of the time, I use 3 gallons in that boat. In my 40hp Whaler, I use about a gallon per outing. For me, I'd never live long enough to pay down the cost difference in fuel savings, between a two and a four-stroke. At this rate. Others usage is obviously hugely different. If I went 90 miles every time out, I'd take a hard look at a 4-stroke. Then again, if I did that, I probably wouldn't go as often as I do now. I'm 4 blocks from the harbor, and typically two hours from leaving my driveway to pulling back in, on a typical afternoon fish.

quote:

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When you go out and hit the key and the EFI allows it to start immediately and is whisper quiet you will probably change your mind.

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Squeeze, choke, crank, know how to clear a flood. Not quite a tribal ritual dance, but I chuckle at the metaphor. Noise? Meh. Not enough to justify the cost difference.

quote:

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When you finally realize that an extra few pounds in the stern actaully makes the boat ride softer you might change your mind.

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Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't bring myself to a frame of mind where more weight for same power is a good thing.

quote:

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Then again people still buy Harley Davidsons when you can get state of the art stuff for less money...go figure.

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100%, no... 1000% agreed. With a Harley, you get NOTHING for the extra money over the competition. Nothing tangible, anyway. With a two stoke, at least they cost less and weigh less, and present a more options for those of us who _like_ a little DIY.

-Peter

posted 08-05-2010 01:26 PM ET (US)            

My two strokes start easy enough and I have chosen them over new four strokes. God knows, I have tried going smokeless. Did the Bearcat 55hp thing when a four stroke outboard was a novelty and bought a new mercury four stoke in 1999. After a frustrating season with a worn out 50hp four stroke mercaha I am back to smoking again. It sure is hard to quit after all these years.

When it comes time to rebuild and you realize that camshafts, valves and cylinder heads cost more money, you may change your mind. When you realize that added weight at opposing ends of a boat is really a bad thing in relation to center of gravity and handling, you may change your mind. When you realize at cruise speeds a four stroke doesn't get twice the mileage of a similar power two stroke you may change your mind. When you realize that nothing compares to the responsiveness of a two stroke , you may change your mind. When you realize you rather listen to the acoustics of the engine rather than your co pilot, you may change your mind.

posted 08-05-2010 02:19 PM ET (US)            

Again I own seven(7) 2 smokes as well. I also own a beautifull Harley and sold my perfectly good modern Kawasaki to buy it. I do love the smell of 2 stroke and do not criticize anyone for burning it nor would I say something at a ramp. I will say that at one of my rendezvous there was only 1 or 2 conventional 2 smokes and one was my bud Henry's 90 Yamaha on pre-mix. He was about 3-4 boats ahead of me in a very long slow speed zone and all I could hear was his engine and smell his smoke. 10 years ago I would have never even noticed it. I miss the old "Sorry I can't hear you!" shout. Yes my 115 does get about 40% better mileage than a conventional at cruise because I ran both. Per tank it is easily a 50% savings...no BS. With todays crap gas it does not take much to clog a carb as you can read all the carb issue posts on this site recently. With 6 carbs(1 for each cyl) it is undetectable that something is amiss in one cyl. If you had a 2 or 4 cyl engine you would notice something is not 100%. When that cyl runs lean for a tank of fuel...POP! $3k the first time, 4 stroke the second. Sad thing was I owned that engine since new for over 12 years and the second cyl blew just 15 months and about 50 hours later. I found myself not trusting my 2 stroke engines anymore and every little hiccup I was sweating the next coming KNOCK. I hate being like that and my Suzukis make me sleep at night. All my friends now have either DFI or 4 strokes so I don't really think about it much. When I do go for a ride with an old 2 smoke I almost chuckle in that I love the smell and the sound but am at awe that this rattle bucket that sounds like it is going to chunk a rod is actually running as it should....kinda like an aircooled beetle compared to a Mercedes.

posted 08-05-2010 03:29 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Peter I was mainly commenting on what Hilinercc posted and not intending on a rehash of 2vs4 nor did I mean to sound like I was busting chops.

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Tohsgib, funny that you took an apologetic posture, because I was about to do the same, fearing that I came across as busting your chops. I somewhat regretted hitting "send" right after iI did it. :)

BTW, I'm not sure I know your name. It's not in your info tab. If you want to keep it that way, that's fine, too.

posted 08-05-2010 07:02 PM ET (US)            

The DFI two stroke I was referring to was a 1999 115 HP FICHT Evinrude burning XD-100 oil. Admittedly my sense of smell is pretty well tuned. Perhaps it's because I'm a former smoker of cigarettes. The smell was not over obvious at idle but at start up it was strong enough. Note that I didn't mention any smoke. That's because the engine never smoked during the ten plus years I ran it. All in all a very fine little engine, indeed. At idle with a tail wind the smell was a little stronger than any other time.

It was not objectionable but the "no smell" from the Verado is, IMO, preferable.

posted 08-06-2010 01:49 AM ET (US)            

I pulled it out last summer checked the plugs and carb bowl, found some old gas still with double oil ratio

It started and smoked beautifully first time as all that oily smoke kept her well, run it for 30mins then wrapped it up for another 5 years.

posted 08-06-2010 11:37 AM ET (US)            

i can always jump on my Harley Davidson Fatboy if I get bored.

Life is good !!

posted 08-07-2010 12:14 AM ET (US)            

It started and smoked beautifully first time as all that oily smoke kept her well, run it for 30mins then wrapped it up for another 5 years.<<<

I did a similar sort of thing with a Commodore 64 I found in my closet at my parents house.

posted 08-08-2010 05:56 PM ET (US)            

While there is some nostalgia associated with running a 30- or 40-year-old outboard motor, there is really no nostalgia about running a one-year-old high-emission motor. It is just not really a very good utilization of all the resources involved. These high-emission motors consume more fuel and oil, both scarce resources. They emit more exhaust emissions, polluting the air and water. A boat with twin motors of large displacement and horsepower will produce a significant amount of smoke if idling at a dock where there are no winds to blow it away.

If modern low-emission motors were only just that--low emission--and nothing else, I suppose you could make an argument that the replacement cost of existing high-emission motors was not justified simply to lower the pollution that would occur with a low-emission motor. However, the modern ultra-low-emission motors are much better motors than the nostalgic 1970 technology they replace. They start better, they run better, they use less fuel, they have more power--in short they are all-around much better motors. All those bonuses come with their ultra-low-emission, too.

posted 08-08-2010 06:45 PM ET (US)            

Once safely retired, he pretty much told me straight up that the reason high-emitting motors are banned from the newer reservoirs is pure politics. The politicians have the final say in who gets to use the reservoirs, "green" is politically powerful in prosperous societies, and banning 2-strokes on the basis of emissions is an easy sell, whether it is based in fact, or not. Period.

posted 08-13-2010 10:31 AM ET (US)            

I also have to agree with Peter about emissions, for decades, even when the emissions policies were in full vigor, the 2 stroke outboards thrived. It took quite a bit of time for the EPA to get around to outboards.

Jim has a good point that they certainly pollute more than today's contemporary motors, but I don't think anyone here with 20 or 30+ year outboard experience can say that the 2 stroke motors from the 50's thru 90's actually "destroyed" any part of the environment as a result from their use.

I'll readily admit how nice and quiet the new 4 strokes are, and thier time has certainly come. but its hard for someone like me, who grew up with 2 strokes, to get my head around a 25hp 4 stroke motor that weighs as much or more than my old 2 stroke 40, is more complex and slower.

Not that I'm not a glutton for punishment, I do own a sterndrive and Buell..........(although both run fine)

posted 08-13-2010 01:51 PM ET (US)            

To my uninformed eye, 4 strokes and modern 2 strokes are means to the same end. Highly reliable, quiet, efficient motors that we can all feel good about.

posted 08-13-2010 03:55 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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The hell with nostalgia; we all desperately need to encourage reasonable environmental regulations while enjoying good performance on our wonderful Whalers.
Tony

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Of course, in making the most socially/environmentally sound decisions, one must also account for the carbon footprint and consumption of non-renewables that are associated with "new construction". I buy a spray bottle once, and then buy refills thereafter. I buy food products with minimal or compostable packaging. I buy used cars and houses, where the environmental cost of design, development, and construction, and consumption of non-renewables is alread ammortized. And of course, the older a still-serviceable item is, the greater the return on the fixed environmental cost. Of course, wealthy nations have option of using their wealth to spare themselves from the unpleasantries that cannot be avoided in being "clean", by foisting the dirty work upon less fortunate peoples of other countries. Forcing poor nations to build the deadly toxic batteries, full of heavy lithium, cadmium, and lead, that we use in our electric and hybrid vehicles is one example, as is the fact that we force them to rape their pristine lands of THEIR oil, so WE can use it and keep our own nests clean. I have trouble sleeping at night over that kind of duplicity, and pray for the day the we are finally willing to pull our own weight. In the mean time, my own use of my own 30 year old outboards pales in comparison.

posted 08-13-2010 04:02 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Forcing poor nations to build the deadly toxic batteries, full of heavy lithium, cadmium, and lead, that we use in our electric and hybrid vehicles is one example...

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I'm not going to argue with you on the definition of poor nation...

http://www.mlive.com/business/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2009/04/ michigan_lands_four_advanced_b.html

...because I think we fit the bill. But there you go.

posted 08-13-2010 05:43 PM ET (US)            

Dave! I'm surprised you let the crucial details slip under your radar. Links within the very link you provided reveal that the "dirty work", the handling of toxic heavy metals for assembly of the individual cells is done (for the Chevy Volt), in Korea. The assembly of individual cells into battery packs will be done in Detroit. I chuckled at the quote, defending that state of affairs, "we lack the domestic infrastructure, (to subject American workers to toxic heavy metals)". Translation? OSHA compliance with such action would be so expensive, even the existing HUGE government subsidy to get people to buy the Volt would be woefully inadequate.

posted 08-13-2010 05:55 PM ET (US)            

Reminds me of Sim City. You running in the deficit? How about a nice toxic sludge factory?! Put people to work, add to the coffers...and cause everyone to move out of your city.

posted 08-13-2010 06:11 PM ET (US)            

As the originator of this thread, I was just asking what people found objectionable about two stroke smoke. Nothing more, nothing less. No finger pointing. The result that came back has been a great and entertaining read, as is often the case when folks are impassioned about a subject.

posted 08-13-2010 06:14 PM ET (US)            

Tony

posted 08-13-2010 10:57 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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but let's not forget we are more than one decade into the twenty-first Century, and perhaps it is time to get onboard with a bit of modern thinking. Blowing a cloud of smoke from your outboard is not a badge of honor any more.

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But what do you do with the old motors that still run well? Disable them into non-workable condition and display them? Junk them? These first two, are the only ways I can think of to take a good running motor out of service and make sure it stays that way. For me, I live in a tiny house, and don't have the room to have an "old outboard museum". Further, I feel a kindred bond with fine machinery, so I lack the fortitude to junk a perfectly good machine. I just sold a 51 year old motor that has lived a hard life on the ocean and is still going strong. It was my first ever motor on my first ever boat, and it was a joy to own and operate. Thankfully, the new owner likes her too, AND is giving her no quarter outside of basic maintenance, fishing her like crazy in the salt water.

If it were up to me, I say let's not euthanize them. Let the old soldiers march on and die with dignity when it's time, doing what they were made to do. It will happen.*

*the fact that some of them outlast their younger siblings, sometimes by decades, is not a bad thing, imho.

posted 08-14-2010 08:07 AM ET (US)            

Assuming what separates yesterday's technology from today's technology is the degree of exhaust smoke given the original post, then for some applications, I can and have. The portable size outboards are a perfect example.

A yesterday's technology smoking 2-stroke 4 HP portable outboard weighed 34 lbs. A today's technology 4-stroke 4 HP portable outboard weighs between 55 and 60 lbs.

The yesterday's technology 2-stroke 4 HP had 2 cylinders. The today's technology 4-stroke 4 HP has 1 cylinder.

The yesterday's technology 2-stroke, 2-cylinder 4 HP outboard produced power every 180 degrees of flywheel rotation. The today's technology 4-stroke, 1-cylinder 4 HP produces power every 720 degrees of flywheel rotation. Which tiller would you like to hold onto for a few hours?

The yesterday's technology 2-stroke 4 HP had no risk of crankcase oil hydrolocking while being stored or transported. The today's technology 4-stroke 4 HP is capable of crankcase oil hydrolocking while being stored or transported rendering it inoperative.