Sikkins Cetol Gloss - soft, sticky, not sweet

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Author Topic:   Sikkins Cetol Gloss - soft, sticky, not sweet

smirkless posted 03-07-2003 12:37 PM ET (US)
I have constructed a new mahogany console and RPS finished in 2 coats of Cetol and 2 coats of Cetol gloss. Problem is... The gloss finish seems to remain soft and sticks to anything with a smooth surface. It's not sticky to the touch so much. It doesn't stick to cloth or sawdust but if you put anything down on it for a couple of hours, it sticks. Even if I lean a piece against the wall that has been dry for over 2 weeks, it will take some of the paint off the wall and ruin the finish. The RPS seats stick to the base of the seat. Its also soft. Anything rubbed against it gently can cause a mark.
I have followed the instructions carefully including stirring. I have ruled out climate because I have done some of this work in hot, warm, cool, humid and dry conditions and still have the same problem.
Now everything is complete and I am afraid to use the boat! I have used the West system and polyurethanes and never had this problem. Sure varnish is good because it is softer and won't crack as easily... but this can't be right.
I used this product based on recommendations from this site. I hope someone will also be able to shed some light on this problem.
Smirkless - truly :-(

Montauk posted 03-07-2003 01:14 PM ET (US)
Smirkless,
I assume this is the same situation we discussed on an earlier thread? If I remember right some of us advised you to let it sit and see what happened. I have some questions for you;
1. Did you stain first? If so, what stain?
2. Did you use a sealer or thin the varnish for a sealer?
3. How much time did you allow between coats.
4. Is the wood Teak or Mahogany?
It sounds like the varnish is still giving off solvent or oil from the wood is preventing the varnish from drying. The other possiblity is you have a bad batch of Cetol gloss.
The product I have used with great results is Epiphanes Wood Gloss, it is formulated for teak application and does not require sanding between coats. Sand the last coat to a level finish and then apply a coat of regular Epiphanes Gloss as the last coat.

jimh posted 03-07-2003 01:42 PM ET (US)
I don't think there is anything on the continuousWave web site wherein the site endorses the use of Sikkins Cetol. You may have read an article in the forum by a contributor who had praise for the product.
As the publisher, my own opinion is that Cetol would not be my choice for wood finish. The high pigmentation it adds to the wood looks strange, and I have seen many boats with weathered Cetol that look awful.
lhg posted 03-07-2003 02:55 PM ET (US)
I'll second that, Jim. I have never thought Cetol should be applied to mahogany at all, just teak. I don't care for the eventual orange color it takes on. It's not for me.
As terrible a job as this sounds, after doing so much work to build the console and seat, you might want to strip it and use varnish, like Boston Whaler always did. Varnish is about the only product used by professionals for marine mahogany.
Use varnish with a high UV inhibitor.
T Party posted 03-07-2003 03:20 PM ET (US)
I have used Sikkens Cetol on all my wood and have had excellent results. I have *not* tried the Cetol Gloss product, but if I recall correctly, the Gloss whould only be one coat thick and should be applied on top of the regular Cetol Marine product.
Sorry to hear that you have not had good luck with it. I am usre that I have endorsed Cetol here, as I have had nothing but excellent results with it. Some of mine is now three years old, and still looks practically new without any maintenance whatsoever. I have not had a problem with stickiness with fully dried Cetol - and I have it on my RPS.
I have avoided gloss precisely because I am of the general opinion that gloss (any gloss) only looks good when it's new, and shows up scratches more easily and doesn't hold up as well as satin or flat finishes.
Good luck with your project.
dreid posted 03-07-2003 06:55 PM ET (US)
As one who has praised Cetol, I can affirm that after three years of use and periodic maintenance, the finish still looks very much as it does in the Reference article on the 18' when the finish was new. Whether you like the finish or not, it's very tough stuff and has yet to turn brittle, as spar varnish inevitably will. Only thing I can imagine is you've used something other than a Cetol product as an undercoat or possibly something other than mineral spirits as a thinner. Otherwise, I'd take the can back to the store and request a refund. The manufacturer may take care of this or even send you a replacement can. Pain in the tail to strip all that new work, but that may be the best route. Finally, I did have some cooler brackets fabricated of mahogany, and the Cetol did look "stranger", jimh's term, than on the teak. As those pieces are generally out of sight, I didn't mind. I do very much like the way the Cetol looks on teak.
For a whole mahogany console, however, I agree with Larry that another transparent product with UV inhibitors might look better. The colored Cetol is required as an undercoat to the gloss, because it has all the UV inhibitor, and it does tend to fill the mahogony pores with a light orange color, not very pretty.
Barry posted 03-07-2003 11:11 PM ET (US)
How long ago did you apply the Gloss? I've used the Marine a lot and have only used the Gloss on a couple of pieces. The gloss did seem to stay tacky a lot longer but eventually cured. I've also read on the other accounts on the Internet of the Gloss requiring extended drying time, as much as several weeks.
John O posted 03-08-2003 12:47 AM ET (US)
Never used the Gloss, but I am in the midst of using the cetol on all the wood on my Newtauk. I have removed all the wood, scrubbed with hot water and sanded old finish off. I have 5 coats on my RPS which I did last May and It looks perfect.The boat was uncovered all summer at a slip. On all my hatches I have 7 coats. They were done in my basement which is appox 60 degrees. They take about 2- 3 day for the first coat to dry. The second coat and after take 2 days. I have also used it on Mahagony with no drying problems. I admitt the color is a bit orange but the stuff lasts.In the summer it was 1-2 days. They are tack free.
Any of the wood that I stripped in the winter I bring upstairs to dry as the cellar is a bit damp and cold. I am not sure if this matters, but the wood is dry and at room temperature when I apply 1st coat.
jimh posted 03-08-2003 10:51 AM ET (US)
It just happens that this month's issue of POWERBOAT REPORTS contains a test of teak treatments. In this test the authors describe Cetol as a "pigmented stain". They further describe the properties of these pigmented stains:
"In effect, they might as well be paint, because they obscure the wood's natural appearance. However, no one can deny that they protect the wood."
newt posted 03-09-2003 05:30 PM ET (US)
Well, I just put the first coat of Cetol on my teak last night. The instructions say to wait 24 hours between coats, but I still have lots of tacky spots now 22 hours later, and will wait until it dries a little more.
Smirkless, how long do the gloss instructions say that a full cure will take?
Jimh, I dissagree with the authors of that report. I would compare the Cetol to a semi-transparent stain in that the wood is not obscured much. The grain is still quite visible, and the varying colors of individual pieces are evident thru the Cetol. I am using the "Cetol" but there is also a "Cetol light" that has even less pigment to it.
smirkless posted 03-09-2003 06:01 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the help everybody. I'm past the point of discussing what finish I should have used or looks better. Fact is, its done. Without answering all of the questions above, I can say that I followed all printed instructions exactly. Some of the work has been dry for a couple of months and remians tacky. This is not the kind of tacky like undried paint. Its more like shiny adhesion like plastic wrap sticks to things. So, if I place another shiny thing on the surface... it sticks. And as noted before, it seems soft and easily scratched.
I contacted the Nobel company. They had no clue what the problem was but are going to have a local tech rep contact me to possible see the finish.
The only thing I can think of is, after using poly and West System for years, I'm used to a much harder finish.
dreid posted 03-10-2003 11:03 AM ET (US)
My Cetol finish is hard. Nothing sticks to it. Unless you press hard enough to dent the wood, you cannot press an imprint into the finish. It's comparable to any of the varnish, polyurethane or tung oil finishes I've used on furniture. Sounds like a product defect to me.
smirkless posted 03-10-2003 12:08 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the feedback dreid. We will see what the tech rep says if he comes to see my finish. Smirk :-)
doobee posted 03-11-2003 11:41 PM ET (US)
I've had excellent results with Cetol on Mahogany also. For those of you who don't like the gold tint, Cetol also offers the product with a clear finish. Epiphanes is also a fabulous product. They have a version with a dark tint that looks really classic on mahogany.
smirkless posted 03-25-2003 10:34 PM ET (US)
I took the newly restored 17 Sakonnet out this weekend. I looked great, got lots of complements. Got her home and found that the cushions my son and I were sitting on had turned the Cetol gloss finish to a matte finish. This is on wood that has been finished for about 3 months. I knew this finish was too soft. Still don't know what the problem is. A Tech Rep from the company is supposed to get back to me... still waiting. Its looking like a refinish job is ahead :-( Guess I'm not so smirky now.
bmacauto posted 03-27-2003 10:44 PM ET (US)
I used Cetol on my 18' Outrage, so far only on the cap rails on the port and starbord side. The finish turend out ok, and applying was easy enough. After one season there are some small areas where it got very light orange and seemd to get brittle and wear like 1 year old Varnish, very odd. I sanded down all the stain that was on it befor, down to bare wood before I layed down the Cetol, and most of the job did turn out grea, just thoes odd spots, and still just a bit of the orange effect. I just Baught Bristol Finish, and am going to try that on my console doors and reversable seatback. Has anyone had experence with this product yet? It has some wonderfull claims, but i'm sure there are some drawbacks that I dont know about yet.

Brian

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Author	Topic: Sikkins Cetol Gloss - soft, sticky, not sweet
smirkless	posted 03-07-2003 12:37 PM ET (US) I have constructed a new mahogany console and RPS finished in 2 coats of Cetol and 2 coats of Cetol gloss. Problem is... The gloss finish seems to remain soft and sticks to anything with a smooth surface. It's not sticky to the touch so much. It doesn't stick to cloth or sawdust but if you put anything down on it for a couple of hours, it sticks. Even if I lean a piece against the wall that has been dry for over 2 weeks, it will take some of the paint off the wall and ruin the finish. The RPS seats stick to the base of the seat. Its also soft. Anything rubbed against it gently can cause a mark. I have followed the instructions carefully including stirring. I have ruled out climate because I have done some of this work in hot, warm, cool, humid and dry conditions and still have the same problem. Now everything is complete and I am afraid to use the boat! I have used the West system and polyurethanes and never had this problem. Sure varnish is good because it is softer and won't crack as easily... but this can't be right. I used this product based on recommendations from this site. I hope someone will also be able to shed some light on this problem. Smirkless - truly :-(
Montauk	posted 03-07-2003 01:14 PM ET (US) Smirkless, I assume this is the same situation we discussed on an earlier thread? If I remember right some of us advised you to let it sit and see what happened. I have some questions for you; 1. Did you stain first? If so, what stain? 2. Did you use a sealer or thin the varnish for a sealer? 3. How much time did you allow between coats. 4. Is the wood Teak or Mahogany? It sounds like the varnish is still giving off solvent or oil from the wood is preventing the varnish from drying. The other possiblity is you have a bad batch of Cetol gloss. The product I have used with great results is Epiphanes Wood Gloss, it is formulated for teak application and does not require sanding between coats. Sand the last coat to a level finish and then apply a coat of regular Epiphanes Gloss as the last coat.
jimh	posted 03-07-2003 01:42 PM ET (US) I don't think there is anything on the continuousWave web site wherein the site endorses the use of Sikkins Cetol. You may have read an article in the forum by a contributor who had praise for the product. As the publisher, my own opinion is that Cetol would not be my choice for wood finish. The high pigmentation it adds to the wood looks strange, and I have seen many boats with weathered Cetol that look awful.
lhg	posted 03-07-2003 02:55 PM ET (US) I'll second that, Jim. I have never thought Cetol should be applied to mahogany at all, just teak. I don't care for the eventual orange color it takes on. It's not for me. As terrible a job as this sounds, after doing so much work to build the console and seat, you might want to strip it and use varnish, like Boston Whaler always did. Varnish is about the only product used by professionals for marine mahogany. Use varnish with a high UV inhibitor.
T Party	posted 03-07-2003 03:20 PM ET (US) I have used Sikkens Cetol on all my wood and have had excellent results. I have not tried the Cetol Gloss product, but if I recall correctly, the Gloss whould only be one coat thick and should be applied on top of the regular Cetol Marine product. Sorry to hear that you have not had good luck with it. I am usre that I have endorsed Cetol here, as I have had nothing but excellent results with it. Some of mine is now three years old, and still looks practically new without any maintenance whatsoever. I have not had a problem with stickiness with fully dried Cetol - and I have it on my RPS. I have avoided gloss precisely because I am of the general opinion that gloss (any gloss) only looks good when it's new, and shows up scratches more easily and doesn't hold up as well as satin or flat finishes. Good luck with your project.
dreid	posted 03-07-2003 06:55 PM ET (US) As one who has praised Cetol, I can affirm that after three years of use and periodic maintenance, the finish still looks very much as it does in the Reference article on the 18' when the finish was new. Whether you like the finish or not, it's very tough stuff and has yet to turn brittle, as spar varnish inevitably will. Only thing I can imagine is you've used something other than a Cetol product as an undercoat or possibly something other than mineral spirits as a thinner. Otherwise, I'd take the can back to the store and request a refund. The manufacturer may take care of this or even send you a replacement can. Pain in the tail to strip all that new work, but that may be the best route. Finally, I did have some cooler brackets fabricated of mahogany, and the Cetol did look "stranger", jimh's term, than on the teak. As those pieces are generally out of sight, I didn't mind. I do very much like the way the Cetol looks on teak. For a whole mahogany console, however, I agree with Larry that another transparent product with UV inhibitors might look better. The colored Cetol is required as an undercoat to the gloss, because it has all the UV inhibitor, and it does tend to fill the mahogony pores with a light orange color, not very pretty.
Barry	posted 03-07-2003 11:11 PM ET (US) How long ago did you apply the Gloss? I've used the Marine a lot and have only used the Gloss on a couple of pieces. The gloss did seem to stay tacky a lot longer but eventually cured. I've also read on the other accounts on the Internet of the Gloss requiring extended drying time, as much as several weeks.
John O	posted 03-08-2003 12:47 AM ET (US) Never used the Gloss, but I am in the midst of using the cetol on all the wood on my Newtauk. I have removed all the wood, scrubbed with hot water and sanded old finish off. I have 5 coats on my RPS which I did last May and It looks perfect.The boat was uncovered all summer at a slip. On all my hatches I have 7 coats. They were done in my basement which is appox 60 degrees. They take about 2- 3 day for the first coat to dry. The second coat and after take 2 days. I have also used it on Mahagony with no drying problems. I admitt the color is a bit orange but the stuff lasts.In the summer it was 1-2 days. They are tack free. Any of the wood that I stripped in the winter I bring upstairs to dry as the cellar is a bit damp and cold. I am not sure if this matters, but the wood is dry and at room temperature when I apply 1st coat.
jimh	posted 03-08-2003 10:51 AM ET (US) It just happens that this month's issue of POWERBOAT REPORTS contains a test of teak treatments. In this test the authors describe Cetol as a "pigmented stain". They further describe the properties of these pigmented stains: "In effect, they might as well be paint, because they obscure the wood's natural appearance. However, no one can deny that they protect the wood."
newt	posted 03-09-2003 05:30 PM ET (US) Well, I just put the first coat of Cetol on my teak last night. The instructions say to wait 24 hours between coats, but I still have lots of tacky spots now 22 hours later, and will wait until it dries a little more. Smirkless, how long do the gloss instructions say that a full cure will take? Jimh, I dissagree with the authors of that report. I would compare the Cetol to a semi-transparent stain in that the wood is not obscured much. The grain is still quite visible, and the varying colors of individual pieces are evident thru the Cetol. I am using the "Cetol" but there is also a "Cetol light" that has even less pigment to it.
smirkless	posted 03-09-2003 06:01 PM ET (US) Thanks for the help everybody. I'm past the point of discussing what finish I should have used or looks better. Fact is, its done. Without answering all of the questions above, I can say that I followed all printed instructions exactly. Some of the work has been dry for a couple of months and remians tacky. This is not the kind of tacky like undried paint. Its more like shiny adhesion like plastic wrap sticks to things. So, if I place another shiny thing on the surface... it sticks. And as noted before, it seems soft and easily scratched. I contacted the Nobel company. They had no clue what the problem was but are going to have a local tech rep contact me to possible see the finish. The only thing I can think of is, after using poly and West System for years, I'm used to a much harder finish.
dreid	posted 03-10-2003 11:03 AM ET (US) My Cetol finish is hard. Nothing sticks to it. Unless you press hard enough to dent the wood, you cannot press an imprint into the finish. It's comparable to any of the varnish, polyurethane or tung oil finishes I've used on furniture. Sounds like a product defect to me.
smirkless	posted 03-10-2003 12:08 PM ET (US) Thanks for the feedback dreid. We will see what the tech rep says if he comes to see my finish. Smirk :-)
doobee	posted 03-11-2003 11:41 PM ET (US) I've had excellent results with Cetol on Mahogany also. For those of you who don't like the gold tint, Cetol also offers the product with a clear finish. Epiphanes is also a fabulous product. They have a version with a dark tint that looks really classic on mahogany.
smirkless	posted 03-25-2003 10:34 PM ET (US) I took the newly restored 17 Sakonnet out this weekend. I looked great, got lots of complements. Got her home and found that the cushions my son and I were sitting on had turned the Cetol gloss finish to a matte finish. This is on wood that has been finished for about 3 months. I knew this finish was too soft. Still don't know what the problem is. A Tech Rep from the company is supposed to get back to me... still waiting. Its looking like a refinish job is ahead :-( Guess I'm not so smirky now.
bmacauto	posted 03-27-2003 10:44 PM ET (US) I used Cetol on my 18' Outrage, so far only on the cap rails on the port and starbord side. The finish turend out ok, and applying was easy enough. After one season there are some small areas where it got very light orange and seemd to get brittle and wear like 1 year old Varnish, very odd. I sanded down all the stain that was on it befor, down to bare wood before I layed down the Cetol, and most of the job did turn out grea, just thoes odd spots, and still just a bit of the orange effect. I just Baught Bristol Finish, and am going to try that on my console doors and reversable seatback. Has anyone had experence with this product yet? It has some wonderfull claims, but i'm sure there are some drawbacks that I dont know about yet. Brian