posted 09-15-2004 03:19 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/whalerWood.html

Let us know what else you need to know!

posted 09-15-2004 03:45 PM ET (US)            

.63 seconds on google.com, search term: Cetol. Result number 2.

Happy refinishing! I just finished the wood on my 18.

posted 09-15-2004 06:53 PM ET (US)         

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage22.html

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage16.html

posted 09-15-2004 08:44 PM ET (US)            

I am glad you have had luck with that product, and that it suits your taste. My post above, and my opinions expressed when I wrote the Boston Whaler Wood Care article that is posted in the reference article, are based on my experiences. Maybe it is time fir a little clarification of my views on the subject.

1) Cetol is a high solids content product. That in itself is not bad. However, it derives its solids from its pigment additives. This presents some problems. The pigment will tend to collect in the pores of the wood and create a deeper color in those areas. Repeated applications enhance that affect and mottle the drain pattern. This is especially true with open grain woods like Mahogany and Teak. A similar effect happens when one uses multiple coats os a satin finish. Pretty soon, you can't see the grain.

2) Without overcomplicating the issue with a bunch of chemistry, I will simply say that Cetol is a type of plastic. Again on the surface not bad, but it has a fault. Unlike oils or a spar varnish, Cetol does not deal well with the extreme hydraulic cycling of wood in a marine environment. On larger areas this can lead to failures of the finish and water intrusion. Currently if a ship is built using this product, and Lloyds of London is writing the insurance on it, they require a special rider on the policy, and inspections on its application. This is the same precaution they take if epoxy is used instead of resorcinol. Use spar varnish, teak oil, and resorcinol, and you can forgo the riders and inspections. Granted not many Whaler owners are using Lloyds to write their policies, but it is an interesting fact.

3) Tradition. I am a man of tradition. I use traditional methods and products where practical when I am building or restoring a boat, or making furniture, or even cooking a meal (I hate microwaves). You have probably seen me write "I don't glue with paint, and I don't paint with glue" when it comes to the constant debate about using epoxy as a sealer coat before varnish. This isn't to say that my shop only contains hand tools, and that I make my own hide glue, or that I use a nearby creek to power my lathe (although that would be kind of cool). I guess to put it metaphorically, I would rather have the things I make be featured in "Wooden Boat" or "Fine Woodworking" rather than "Better Homes and Gardens Weekend Projects" or "Lakeland Boating."

How many times have you seen someone at a marina stop, look at a boat and say "Boy that is one hell of a Cetol job on that boat."? My money says that they just keep walking and stop to look at a Grand Banks or a 1968 Chris Craft 31' Sea Skiff with spar varnish and oil and say "Boy that is one hell of a brightwork job." Maybe they are even reminded of a boat from their childhood for a second. Can you imagine something like a 30's era Chris Craft runabout with a thick coat of Cetol on its sides?

But, Hooter, like I said, I am glad it has worked for you.

posted 09-16-2004 01:21 AM ET (US)            

The fact that you have "first hand" experience besting the hell out of your boat for a year, and letting your finish go for ten years says a lot. Like I said, glad it works for you. It is obvious that you are vehement in your opinion. And resorcinol is an adhesive.

Also, I am not going to comment on the boats you linked to. I can not see then up close. I can say that I have disliked all applications I have seen personally.

Grandpas,

I have never used it, but I know of at least one major boat yard in Wisconsin that does use it and has had good luck so far. I am sure that with teak you would need to do an acetone wash down of the wood first - but that is just a guess.

posted 09-16-2004 10:49 AM ET (US)            

The key to any quality finish is preparation. I believe the three examples referenced by Hooter are the exception rather than the rule. Clearly these finishes were properly applied and a beautiful furniture quality finish is the result.

posted 09-16-2004 10:58 AM ET (US)         

I also get comliments on the wood almost every time I am out. Often from other Whaler owners.

Infact the slip that I am in I have 5 Whalers surrounding me. The two with Sikkens, my 1988 Newtauk and my friends mid 80's 22 Revenge Cuddy get the most compliments. Both have Sikkens.

I do see several others at my marina that have varnish and they do look great until they start to peel and chip.

I just have a tough time buying into using varnish or teak oil when I have had excellant results with the ease of initial application, durability and maintaining.

Quite frankly I intially used Sikkens on the advice from friends that had various types of craft. The look was the least of my concern. I wanted to get the wood back to a good working order and preserve it. The compliments I get was just a bonus. I want to use my boat and not be worried about varnishing or applying teak oil constantly.

posted 09-16-2004 11:13 AM ET (US)            

I believe the problems you are experiencing are twofold.

1) I could be wrong, but I do not believe Watco is suitable for outdoor use. You may have bought their teak oil, but generally, Watco is used for interior work.

2) Welcome to the world of teak oil. Even up here in the Great Lakes, oils fade rapidly. Those who are fastidious about their teak will oil twice a season. Fortunately it is a rather quick job.

posted 09-17-2004 08:14 AM ET (US)            

For purposes of closing out my question, tonight I took a look at the can of Watco Teak Oil and confirmed that it is indeed Exterior Marine grade. I'll mark this up to being very dry teak and that I'll soon conform to the 2X per season application rather than the 4X per season run rate that I'm on now.

posted 09-19-2004 09:17 PM ET (US)            

Cetol is much less work to maintain, and if you're not willing to maintain oil or varnish, your wood will look better with Cetol than it will with neglected varnish or oil. For people who want minimum maintenance it has its place. A similar product called Honey Teak looks better than Cetol in my opinion (although still not as good as varnish)...it is a higher gloss finish, and looks more like a high gloss varnish job than Cetol does.

That said, I have been going through the terrible job of stripping Cetol off of all the wood on my '71 Outrage & refinishing with oil (on deck) and varnish (everywhere else). Be aware that Cetol is as messy & hard of a job to remove as a deteriorated varnish job is, so make sure you like the look of Cetol before you start the process. On the other hand, oil finishes are very little work to remove if you want to try something else later.

posted 09-20-2004 04:13 PM ET (US)         

As a trial, I have first refinished and varnished the bow locker cover, which as you know, is made the same way. After six coats of Z-spar Flagship varnish, which yellowed the caulking joints badly, I discovered the varnish did not bond to this cauking, and I could peel off these "strips of varnish", just like a string, and perfectly re-expose the white caulking. This looks terrific, but I am afraid it also exposes the caulk edges to water damage on the underlying teak. I am now buying Interlux Clear "Goldspar" varnish, hoping 3 more coats will nicely re-seal the joints, bond to the caulking (do you know exactly waht this compound is?) and not yellow the classic look of the nice white lines.

posted 09-20-2004 10:04 PM ET (US)            

It is too early to tell as to the varnish's durability over the caulk lines, as I have just finished the job. I have assumed that these lines are white polysulphide rubber. Before starting, I contacted the help lines at Epifanes, Interlux, Z-Spar, and Detco and asked them about their varnish's ability to work over polysulfide caulk. All of these manufacturers said that their varnish would adhere and be durable over polysufide. They also said that if the finish eventually fails (after 10 or more years), it will likely occur over the caulk lines due to the fact that they have more "give" than the wood does. It is interesting to note that Interlux has a full page advertisement for their Goldspar & Schooner varnishes on the back of recent issues of Woodenboat magazine, that appears to show their varnishes over teak and white polysulfide caulk lines. Varnish over mahoghany & white polysufide caulk lines is apparently fairly common on classic mahoghany runabouts. So IF the white lines on our consoles are in fact polysulfide rubber, then it SHOULD work.

I have used Detco Crystal varnish based on good reviews of this product that I have read in magazines and also on the WoodenBoat forum. This varnish has a traditional amber color, which after 16 coats has given the white lines an amber look. I actually like the way this looks, as it gives the console almost a "teak-and-holly" look. But if you want to keep them white, a clear varnish like Goldspar should work as well.

After the first few coats, I could easily peel up the varnish over the caulk lines as you describe (this happenned in one spot). But after 10+ coats, there is enough build to make the entire suface become a hard finish that you couldn't peel up if you tried. I have 16 coats now & consider it done...this was to get a deep build of varnish over the caulk lines, which were raised in places higher than the teak planks. Hopefully this will be durable...I'll be very disappointed if all of that work is for nothing.

My original plan was to varnish the bow locker cover as well, but I have decided to keep that item oiled, as I am not confident that the varnish-over-rubber will be as durable on an item that gets walked on. I would suggest that you will need 10+ coats of varnish over that caulk lines before you have enough build to prevent the varnish from separating...it is obvious that if the varnish will adhere to these lines at all, it certainly adheres better over wood.

Good luck with your refinishing. Please keep me informed on how it turns out, and I'll do the same.

posted 09-20-2004 10:43 PM ET (US)         

I had thought that the caulking Whaler used was polysulfide, but now I am not so sure. I had to do some caulking repairs on my locker cover, and when cured was not the same as the original. When peeling up those varnish lines over the caulking, I noticed that it adhered better to my new polysulfide work than to the original.

But I will try your method and continue to build up coats and see how it works. I am going to try and keep my caulking lines white if possible.