posted 07-03-2003 08:01 AM ET (US)         

West Marine $20.49
Boat US $20.49

posted 07-03-2003 10:27 AM ET (US)         

Yours is a perfectly valid question. I don't know anything about 2-stroke oil, but I do know a little about regular motor oil because I've been changing my car's oil for many years. I used to buy the expensive stuff (Pennzoil, Quaker State, Valvoline, etc.) until Consumer reports did its extensive tests a few years ago and discovered that those expensive brands are no better than say Texaco, Mobil, Exxon and the like, which are much cheaper. I can find these "gas station" brands for around a buck a quart and they're every bit as good as the "name brand" stuff, which can go for over $3/qt. sometimes!

CR even discovered there's no real advantage to those synthetics like Mobil 1, unless you live in Alaska. It turns out its only advantage is it doesn't freeze as easily as the regular oils. It did not provide any more protection from friction than any of the regular oils.

I suspect the same situation may be true of 2-stroke oils. If big names and marketing make people feel better, so be it. But they may be throwing away a lot of money.

posted 07-03-2003 08:19 PM ET (US)            

If you would like to start the debate anew, I would first suggest you read all the previous debate on this topic and then look for some new ground to defend or attack.

posted 07-04-2003 03:21 PM ET (US)            

Can you elaborate on the less expensive oil related problems?

Your rant gave no specifics.

posted 07-04-2003 11:16 PM ET (US)            

If what you stated is correct "Any TCW-3 oil meets manufactures requirements" then why buy the more expensive oil?

I've heard nothing to prove that spending more money on oil does anything but show ad executives are doing their jobs well.

Jimh said it well when he made the remark that virtually no one will change their stance on the topic of which to use. However that was not my question.

My question was WHAT does the higher price oils have that the others don't?

It was and is not my intention to start or continue a debate on which is better or which you should use.

However it seems that my question has sparked a heated controversy that will be of no benefit to the forum [as I see it].

So I withdraw the question.

posted 07-05-2003 06:47 PM ET (US)         

I am in the manufacturing business and can tell you that many brands of cosumer products are made by the same factory under "proprietary formulas". It is BS for the most part.

Do you think Sam Adams Beer from the Boston Beer Company is made in Boston? How about Mass?, How about New England? Well sorry folks it never has been. They have a "test brewery" outside of Boston, but the fact is that they contract the brewing from several established breweries through out the US.

Guess what? the Merc oil is contracted out as well. If any one on this forum pretends to have any insight on the formula or has spoken to a salesman do not believe them. If a manufacturers rep ever spoke to an outsider he would never tell them anything. Manufacturers DO NOT TELL SALES PEOPLE that type of info. It would break the confidentiality contracts between the the customer and the plant.

posted 07-05-2003 07:21 PM ET (US)         

I think you need to look at the whole picture and see who the real players are. I take many customers out for lunch,golf, ...whatever they desire and I bet they say my product runs better. There is a bigger picture here that many folks do not realise. Sell the sizzle not the steak.

posted 07-05-2003 07:50 PM ET (US)            

If price was not an issue,all oil cost exactly the same. Would you purchase outboard branded oil merc,yamsha or Envinrude for your respective engine or would you purchase a non-outboard branded oil Pennzoil, Exxon West Marine Walmart etc.

I think MOST of us would purhase the outboard branded oil.

posted 07-06-2003 10:13 AM ET (US)            

I use the Premium Merc stuff and buy two containers when it is on sale. If I can't find it on sale, I will still purchase it. Life is too short...

posted 07-06-2003 12:16 PM ET (US)         

I am familiar with your statements about "Fishing the Bering Sea" as you mention it in many of your posts over and over again and I am sure it is in your profile as well. I am not sure what my age and your stated experience has to do with the price and formula of oil.

I still do not know what specifically is different about OEM oil and Walmart oil. That is the topic of this thread.

I do have several friends both in the commercial fishing and charter business that run OEM oil and Walmart oil. Their engines are not blowing up in any case.

posted 07-06-2003 09:08 PM ET (US)            

I am a firm believer in OEM parts and oil but I have nothing bad to say about most aftermarket products.

Manufacturers are forbiden to require that their products be used to retain the warranty, as long as they meet certain requirements.

TCWIII is TCWIII regardless of the brand, as lubrication is concerned. The OEM brand may burn cleaner with the addition of their additives but will not lubricate any better.

I sell nothing but Merc and J/E TCWIII. If I were still running a 2 stroke would I run an aftermarket brand, not in one of the new DFI,etc, engines. Other than that I would not have a problem running Sierra oil, Wallmart?.

posted 07-06-2003 10:04 PM ET (US)            

I would be interested in reading the report that Bill Graniss wrote on TCW-3 oils.

What publication and issue would I find it?

posted 07-07-2003 01:45 AM ET (US)            

Here is another chance for me to reveal my ignorance to the masses.

What is cylinder scoring? Is it burning the surface of the cylinder? The walls?

Over what period of time are the results gathered?

I have always used and will continue to use OEM, if only to help ward of Murphy and other gremlins that seem to take advantage of me whenever I do try to save a buck.

posted 07-07-2003 07:25 AM ET (US)            

I read a article on Motor oil and it said that if every one switched to Synthetic it would make a huge dent in oil imports.

posted 07-07-2003 12:28 PM ET (US)            

In the meantime, my 1986 Johnson 70Hp will continue running on Walmart 2-cycle oil, and you guys can keep running the big buck stuff...

posted 07-07-2003 01:35 PM ET (US)            

Bill Grannis is an OMC mechanic, and his tests--can't get the results because the numbers are not published except by a guy named "Dunk" on another web forum--his tests show that the best oil is...OMC. Surprise.

I have not seen any tests from Mercury. They just recommend their own oil. I don't know if they declare it the best in "tests" or not.

And so it goes.

I'd be very surprised to see any major boating publication that accepts advertising publish an article that declared a winner.

By the way, in the Bill Grannis article--the one that is not published except on another web forum by a guy named "dunk"--the unpublished difference between the major brands is cited as "one percent" in cylinder scoring. In any testing procedure, there is a margin of error. In order to accept that a tested result is valid, you'd have to believe that it exceeds the margin of error of the test. Now one part in 100 is a rather tight tolerance for any test. Who performs the test? Does the tester have any interest in the outcome? Is the test done with double blind methods. Can the results can be duplicated by others in independent tests.

posted 07-07-2003 06:24 PM ET (US)            

Remember the prescient poster who said "BOAT" was an acronym for "Break Out Another Thousand?"

If you can afford a Whaler of any vintage, what the Hell difference does it make if you spend a few pennies more on oil???

posted 07-07-2003 09:36 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/techoiltcw3.pdf

But at least this is a published report. It has a name on it, it has a date, someone takes responsibility for it. Someone asserts this was what was tested and this is the result.

If anyone wants to post a link to other resources, beside what someone said on another website's forum, I think it would be interesting to read those "test results."

posted 07-08-2003 01:34 AM ET (US)            

Your motor oil comment doesn't float.
Mercruiser reccomends their 25W40 in all of their I/O engines, Volvo reccomends 30W for theirs which are the same GM blocks as Mercruiser. Neither manufacturer reccomends Delo 300 or 400, allthough it is a good oil. At our marina Mercury 25W40 goes into all Mercruisers and Chevron 30W goes into all Volvos.

I agree with you as to running premium oil in both an I/O and an O/B, but only the manufacturers specified oil.

posted 07-08-2003 05:09 AM ET (US)            

After the major companies dumped their oil at the depots', they recieve instant credit for what they dumped. The show said the pipeline took at least seven days for the oil to accually arrive but, the credit was in place before the oil accually arrived.

The oil in the pipeline was all the same except, at fuel depots, the "major companies" added their "special additives".

posted 07-08-2003 09:01 PM ET (US)            

Why don't you simply tell me, and other readers, where we can find this article that Mr. Grannis wrote so we can read it ourselves? You can't honestly expect us to just take your word for what it says, can you?

posted 07-14-2003 05:05 PM ET (US)            

I am of the opinion that a very similar principle applies to many industries / manufacturers. This (unproven) principle is this:

Companies that have a name-stake reputation and position in a particular industry do not, for the most part, market inferior products. They may make mistakes to add-on brands or lines, but for their core industry - their bread and butter – they do their best to keep their product quality in line with their product positioning.

This being the case – a premium brand generally delivers premium quality – at a premium price. Cheaper brands do the same – somewhat less quality, but at a significant cost savings. Because of the TC-W3 standard, they all meet this requirement, but to differing degrees.

We're talking about oil here – lubrication…What I'm looking for is a company that KNOWS oil…that has a reputation stake in selling a quality product. I'm looking for a Pennzoil, a Quaker State, a Mobil….a name brand that has a whole lot to lose by selling an inferior product that harms people's engines.

Yamaha, OMC, Mercury – they charge a premium for their oil and it comes with a strong implied promise of performance – if you can prove that you used their product, they've assumed some risk that if the oil harms your engine, they're on the hook for repairs…but then again, the premium prices for their oil more than offsets these risks because it is a good product.

The big names in oil – Pennzoil, Texaco, Mobil, etc. are going to have a great product at a reasonable price – this is the category that probably gives you the best value for your money – go with your favorite. These brands have an implied promise of performance based on the company's positioning in the marketplace. (Which is not really enforceable)

Using an off brand is going to get you a product that meets the standard, but with no promise implied at all other than that the oil at time of sale meets the stated standard.

While different uses may lead you to choose different oil companies, I really believe that BOTH JimH and Sal are right up to certain points.

If it makes you feel better to pay for branded oil that matches your engine, by all means –you should do so…the price you pay is more than made up for in peace of mind.

The assertion here is that purchasing from a reputable company with a strong reputation is probably a pretty safe side of the road to walk on, and I think it is sound advice to say that NOT purchasing a branded oil to match your engine (Yamaha, OMC, Mercury, etc) will probably not hurt you; but purchasing an off-brand/no-name brand can be more of a gray area – and is probably NOT worth the nominal cost savings.

For me it is middle of the road. We've been running Pennzoil, Valvoline, and Mobil in our outboards ever since I can remember, and we have a 1940's era Scott-McCulloch that still runs like a top. 60 or so years of performance with middle-of the road brand oil and yearly maintenance/upkeep from my Grandpa, my dad, and soon, me… is all the proof I need.

Okay...I've written my book.

posted 07-15-2003 01:02 AM ET (US)            

My 1990 Yamaha Waverunner is a good example for longevity. It is essentially a 500cc Yamaha outboard motor turned on its side. It isn't particularly fast, so it has spent its entire life running wide open. We have kept it because it is indestructible and is a great unit to teach newbies how to ride a ski. It ran its first year on Yamaha branded oils. It has run since then on whatever the cheapest TCW oil available (TCW2, then later TCW3). Last year, I estimate that it had over six hundred hours on it (honest estimate). It was still running wonderfully and starting first hit every time like always. I "gave" it to my niece to use as her own. She neglected to listen to the part about keeping the tank full of oil even though I made her fill the tank the first time for emphasis. Five tanks of fuel later I get a call from her to come tow her in. It would no longer run and she could not explain what it was doing, just that it would not run.

I left work and picked her up and popped it on the trailer since it was quicker to do that than to tow her home (she had ridden much farther than I had recommended).

I took a look at the boat, and the motor looked fine. It even cranked over when I hooked it to a jumper box (the battery had been cranked dead). I looked at the oil tank and it was completely empty. I ran a compression test and one cylinder was very low. I finally got the info from her that it began to run oddly and she kept riding it until it quit. She then kept restarting it and riding it at full throttle repeatedly until it would finally crank no longer.

I took it away from her and prepared myself to "junk" the ski. I popped the heads off and was surprised to find one cylinder in excellent condition and the other only mildly scored. The rings on the "good" cylinder were still within spec on the end gap. I checked the endplay on the rods and checked for crank bearing damage (remember, this motor was repeatedly run hard with no oil till it would no longer run at all).I bored the bad jug, dropped a new piston and rings in it. Ran a hone thru the good cylinder and put a new set of rings on it. We've put 50 hours on it since then (loaned it to my neighbors who have ridden it nonstop all year). Runs like new.

This is with a long life running wide open with the world's cheapest TCW oil in it.

I am COMPLETELY convinced that $6/gallon TCW3 oil is absolutely fine to use in any non-racing outboard application.

On the flipside, I used to dragrace V6 mercurys at over 8500rpm. I ran Merc Hi-perf oil at 32:1 with VP race fuel when using the high compression heads (185 psi) for racing. When pleasureboating with the same motor, I ran 150 psi heads, 92 octane pump gas, and el-cheapo TCW3 oil premixed at 32:1 ( I did limit rpm to 7400 with that setup). I never saw any oil-related wear on those motors. They only blew up from running too much ignition advance, too lean on the fuel mix, stretching head bolts, or breaking rods when the lower units would let loose.

Each man will decide what oil to use in his boat. I'll continue to use cheap junk (Texaco is cheapest at AutoZone and LubriMatic is cheapest at Boaters World).

posted 07-15-2003 06:49 AM ET (US)            

Seriously, you make a good point about the releative effectiveness of the so-called "cheap" oils. I tend to buy the "good" stuff in bulk, but have no problem using the "cheap" stuff when that's all there is. The "cheap" stuff seems to result in a little more exhaust smoke, but that could be my imagination.

This entire discussion, however, seems to raise more of a question about retail pricing than the oil itself.

A couple of people have pointed out that Costco is selling the Quicksilver brand at $11.99 a gallon - the same price it retails at Sam's Club here. The identical product at West Marine/Boat US is $20.49?

When you buy TWC at the local mini-mart gas station on your way to the launch because you forgot the oil at home, they charge as much for the "cheap" stuff as you would pay for the "good" stuff at Costco or Sam's Club. At that point you're paying for mini-mart "convenience" (or for not paying attention).

There's not much convenience in shopping at West Marine/Boat US (you usually have to go out of your way to get there). So how do you explain the extra $8.50 a gallon for the identical product vs. Costco/Sam's Club? And what does it indicate about the mark up on the other merchandise at West Marine/Boat US?

posted 07-17-2003 10:46 PM ET (US)            

This packaging change to sell to the discount chains didn't make us certfied dealers very happy.

If my warehouse is out of the Mercury brand I will order Quicksilver and the cost to me for both is the same, about what COSTCO sells it for.

posted 07-19-2003 10:23 AM ET (US)            

Read it yourself in the black and white on their website. It is under information about their "TLDI" engines. Factory tested and approved. They also offer a 3+1 year warranty on their direct injected motors. I know of no other manufacturer who factory tests other brands of oil and then publishes acceptability of competitors brands. My conclusion is any of the oils on the list would perform equally well in any DFI engine. Make your own conclusion..........John

posted 07-20-2003 11:39 AM ET (US)            

"USA users", next page click on:

"tech info", next page click on:

"TLDI FAQs", next page scroll down to:

"What kind of oil do I need to use in my TLDI?"

There is the only information I know of which comes directly from an outboard motor company that says they have "factory tested" multiple brands of oil including competitors and states the brands they have tested and their acceptability.

I give Tohatsu/Nissan a big salute for doing something useful for the customer and putting the customer above pushing their own brand of oil.

If all outboard builders would do the same I doubt there would be close to 70 replies on this topic.

Next outboard purchase I will seriously check out the Tohatsu/Nissan TLDI line.

posted 06-22-2005 09:34 PM ET (US)            

I ran 70 miles on Pennzoil and my motor ran just as fine as Quicksilver.

posted 06-23-2005 04:09 AM ET (US)            

What I do want to say is that Mercury/Quicksilver makes several oils. I have seen if not mistaken, Quicksilver Premium, Quicksilver Premium Plus and Quicksilver DFI. I have seen the Quicksilver Premium at Wal Mart. I have seen the Premium Plus several places as well but the DFI only at Bass Pro and Mercury dealers----so far. I am sure they csn be bought elsewhere, just what I have seen so far. My manual states clearly that "Premium Plus" oils can be used in lieu of the DFI oil. I notice that Pennzoil makes a semi syn Premium Plus at much less price than the Quicksilver semi syn Premium Plus. I notice the specs are the same.

OK, that aside, I also notice that my Opti 150 uses so little oil and fuel that oil is not a huge impact in the overall operating expense as it would be for outboards I have owned previously. This engine uses almost less oil than a 25 horse Evinrude I owned long ago or a 25 horse Merc I used to have on an inflatible with premix.

Went to the garage, I now have in my hands Quicksilver premium, an ashless dispercent TC-W conventional oil. I am now holding Quicksilver Premium Plus which is a semi syn TC-W3. I am now holding semi syn Pennzoil Premium Plus which is also TC-W3 and now I am holding Quicksilver DFI which says on the gallon jug that it is a synthetic blend---a semi syn blend!!!!OK, check this out, the DFI oil is not a TC-W3 and even states that "It is not intended for use in all engines secifying a TC-W3 oil"!!!!!!!!There is no other reference to any spec or mention of TC-W3.

OK, that aside, the manual does state that a TC-W3 oil is acceptable, I suspect that the TC-W3 rated synthetic blended Pennzoil product is fully compatible with Mercury Optimax engines.

As a trained scientist and once employeed as such I don't put much into heresay and antedotal evidence. The ONLY way to settle this is to run identical engines on instrumented test stands and then tear the engies down.

Pennzoil actually did this with "ultralight" aircraft engines by rotax. These were two stroke engines. Pennzoil ran these engines with competing oils against theirs on a test stand and then tore them don. Actual measurements were taken, photgraphs taken and PUBLISHED. Pennzoil products beat the compeating brands including manufacture specific oils. Again, just a hunch, I bet it is the same in this case wit marine Optimax engines.

posted 06-23-2005 12:59 PM ET (US)            

The way I look at it in todays market and business world you are going to sit here and tell me that BRP, Yamaha, Merc, Etc., Etc. are going to go out of there way to do a good deed for its customers and spend 10's of millions of dollars of other wise profit to create a uniqe blend of oil that meets all of their specific motors needs? Please, Profits drive business and if they can find a manufacture that already makes an oil product that suites thier need they are going to buy it, Label it thier own, Tell you it is the best and charge you more for it. This happens all the time in the Auto Industry. Are you going to tell me that Mopar oil, Delco Oil, Motorcraft Oil is specificaly made for their respective product lines. No it is just pennzoil, texaco, quaker state, mobil just rebranded. Do you think I should only run Delco Plugs in my GMC because GM tell me to? Should you only use mopar oil filters on DCX product? I can keep going on and on but when it really comes down to it, Mopar, Motorcraft, Delco, VW, BMW, etc, etc all have outside companies build or just supply the major auto makers with their products and the Auto Companies put thier labels on it and Bam! It is out the door to you for more $$$. This is no big secert, and I am sure the outboard companies are the same way.

posted 06-23-2005 01:09 PM ET (US)            

I have seen the drum it's drawn from and it appears to be the genuine article.

posted 06-23-2005 01:32 PM ET (US)            

The Pennzoil has the same anti carbon and anti sticking qualities--those are part of the TC-W3 specification--lol. On the back of the jug---

posted 06-23-2005 03:42 PM ET (US)         

Walmart does have it's house brand TCW-3, called Super Tech, and the NMMA specifically shows it as being produced by Pennzoil. Cost is about $6/gallon, and I have noted it's a huge seller. I've been using it for years and my Mercs hum right along.

We have recently learned here that Citgo produces Yamalube, and Ashland Oil in WI produces the OMC/BRP oils. Citgo oil is also sold at Bass Pro for about $8.50 a gallon, and I have seen bulk packaged Yamalube for $11.

posted 06-29-2005 05:26 PM ET (US)            

Best advice - read the manual, follow the recommendations from the manufacturers, do preventive maintenance, respect your Whaler bros who share their time and know how.

posted 06-30-2005 08:03 AM ET (US)            

BTW, I have never "harassed" Sal here or anywhere else...."exposed" maybe! Plus I have never been "kicked off" any other site for calling attention to his foolishness.

posted 06-30-2005 10:14 AM ET (US)            

I believe this is the article being cited by Sal above, in July of 2003, about a year prior to its publication. Unfortunately, I cannot locate any on-line version of that article. (That in itself is a bit curious, as many other old articles from that magazine are available on the magazine's website.) It may be that the article is published in the magazine's on-line version, and I just cannot find it.

It is only reasonable to require that if a reference is made to the published work of another person, that some citation be given to where the information was published. In this way, interested readers can consult the original material and draw their own inferences.

posted 06-30-2005 01:20 PM ET (US)            

I dissagree, even police tell you eye wittnesses are very unreliable. The best info is gathered via a properly set up test procedure. First hand or second hand stuff like my motor only like Shell or not is just antedotal here say and is essentially meaningless.
Why do we not find such reports, well, imagine the coast of essentially running till death numerous identical outbords on various products and then taking the engines apart and inspecting them---before and after!!!!!!
I have both the mechanical, engineering and science training to accomplish this, please anyone wishing to fund this test for me I will help settle this once and for all--uh---until another product comes out, a new engine design and then we start all over. It could keep me busy for the rest of my life. I figure about 5 million will get me started. About a dozen eaxh Opti, Etec, Yamaha, Honda etc and then I will need a test facility---hey, this will be fun!

Meanwhile, I run Mobil 1 in everything, my cars, my truck, my Kubota tractor, I run Shell or Exxon products in aircraft I have owned, I am using the Quicksilver DFI product for the time being in my Opti. Magic is for Vegas shows, give me science.

posted 06-30-2005 02:19 PM ET (US)            

My other engines to current have been run on varrious TCW III oils. How I have judged them are as follows:

-Low ash content....less or no smoke.
-low or normal spark plug deposits.
-Cost$$$

I have used them all.

I have settled on bulk Mercury TCW III. I also use that West Marine TCW III product when it goes on sale for $8.99cn a gallon. It provides the same results for me as the Merc stuff.

My engine currently is a 1994 90hp Mercury with 30 hrs.{re-built}

My others were OMC products. They drank the above mentioned oil just fine also.

Maybe the newer bigger engines are what this thread is all about. just my two cents.