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Author Topic:   25' hull design flaw?

logjamslam posted 02-16-2004 05:58 PM ET (US)
I saw some old posts which described several 25'hulls that had major cracks in the vicinity of the fuel tank vent. The term design flaw was kicked around several times.
Was there a design flaw in some of the 25' hulls or just several abused hulls surfacing at the same time by coincidence?
Tom W Clark posted 02-16-2004 07:55 PM ET (US)
logjamslam.
Yes, this is a known problem. Whaler has a repair bulletin that describes how to repair a crack should one develop. I have a copy of those repair instructions.
It is a pretty extensive repair that involves grinding back the fiberglass about five feet to either side of the crack and laying in special kevlar fiber matting to tie the two halves of the hull back together. In other words, it is an enormous band-aid. I have heard cost estimates of around $3,000 for this work.
logjamslam posted 02-16-2004 08:10 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom,
Are there certain years and models that were more prone to the problem? Do you remember the year of the bulletin? And did they do anything to beef up the area in later models?
Also was that specific to the port side or were both sides affected?
Tom W Clark posted 02-16-2004 08:23 PM ET (US)
logjamslam,
Those are all good questions, and I wish I knew the answers, but I do not.
I received a FAXed copy of the repair instructions from Forum contributor Andy Roberts. I would love to have a better copy if anybody out there has one to share. Perhaps we could add it to the CW site if I could get a clean image of the drawings.
WSTEFFENS posted 02-16-2004 08:44 PM ET (US)
Tom:
What series of boats does this apply? Date of manfacture etc,? Was there a warrenty bulliten? What was the cause of the crack and where?
Thanks
WLS
Tom W Clark posted 02-16-2004 10:54 PM ET (US)
Walt,
I don't know the answers to your questions either. There's been some prior discussion. Here's one informative thread:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002574.html
Clearly htis is a problem experienced by 25s that go out in big water, get some air and land on a wave crest.
Fishcop posted 02-17-2004 12:00 AM ET (US)
To all interested.
The stress cracks on the Port side of my 25' Outrage Cuddy model seems to be from loading the bow and stern too heavy and taking heavy seas/chop. My "cuddy" model with an aftermarket bracket (30") seems to have found the breaking point of my boat. I have since removed the "cuddy cabin" from my boat and the cracks have halted in their tracks. Additionally, I have seen several(dozens)of non-cuddy 25' whalers that do not have this stress crack. I believe that as Tom points out, this model is suffering from abuse rather than a design flaw. But as Chuck from Whaler pointed out, there is a repair diagram from whaler for this problem (do they know?)
I have not repaired the cracks as they only appear to affect the gelcoat.
Member Royce has a similar 25' Cuddy and does not have any of the similar problems. He has the standard notched transom.
Maybe the length of the boat with the extended bracket and weight of the cuddy causes the cracks?
For Logjamsam & WLS, I do not know the answer. LHG has a beautiful 25' Outrage with twins on the transom and no problems. Same vintage and many more hours.

What I can tell you is that the 25' classic hull is the best riding whaler I have owned. I love the way it takes the seas and rides over the chop. Get one and I am sure you will love it too.
Andy
homey posted 02-17-2004 04:57 PM ET (US)
logjamslam,
I have a 1991 25' Outrage/cuddy/whalerdrive, and NO CRACKS. This boat is used primarily in the Chesapeake Bay and offshore 30-50 miles. The boat is in great condition, structurally sound, and handles the ocean with ease.
If the cracks were located on both port/starboard sides of the hull I would be concerned. The fact the cracks are located in the area of the fuel vent may indicate a minor flaw. I think the cracks are more cosmetic then anything.

There are older 25's on the market, that have alot more life in them...I've never heard of any 25'Outrage breaking apart....Homey
logjamslam posted 02-17-2004 06:19 PM ET (US)
Andy & Homey
Thanks for the reports with your experiences.
I know that the 25's are great hulls, have enjoyed their seaworthiness and I would love to have one.
After reading the words "design flaw" I was trying to learn if in fact there was a problem with certain models, or years or if there were just a few boats affected by severe conditions/hard use. I'm not worried about one coming appart, just trying to get the facts in order to keep from spending $$ on top of a purchase price for a repair that I could have avoided with a little research.
The fact that there was no recall tends to make me think that there was not really a design flaw as such. The fact that they issued a repair bulletin demonstrates that they were willing to help owners solve problems. I would still like to know how many hulls experienced similar damage by year and by model. It would also be interesting to compare to the same figures for other hull lengths.
I'm sure we will never know...
Greg
Royce posted 02-17-2004 11:42 PM ET (US)
As Andy reported, I have a 1985 Outrage Cuddy with no cracks in the fuel fill area. Last year I talk to the head North American BW sales rep. at a show. I asked him about the reported cracks and he responded from his own experience as an owner of a 25' as well as what he had picked up around the company. He said that the fuel fill area is a spot where the hull and gunnell change crosssection and is the ideal hinge point to draw a point load. He thought the boats that experienced cracking generally had been rode very hard as a previous post explained. I'll keep my fingers crossed! By the way-he said his 25' has been his favorite whaler.
Royce
doobee posted 02-18-2004 07:53 PM ET (US)
The boats I encountered with hull cracks were late '80s models. One was a Frontier with a Whalerdrive and one was a standard 25 center console. Both boats were used in extremely harsh conditions when the cracks occurred. As far as I know, the problem was not traced to any particular run of hulls. I believe that as soon as the problem was recognized, that area was reinforced with extra layers of roving.
I would not shy away fom any particular model or year to avoid this problem, nor would I be afraid to own a model that has been properly repaired.
If gelcoat cracks are appearing in the area of a previous repair, it does not necessarily mean that the repair is failing. Improperly mixed gelcoat can result in hairline cracks and color changes over time.
Delamination and large, gaping, vertical cracks would be an indication of something more severe, but repairable.
doobee posted 02-18-2004 07:58 PM ET (US)
I forgot to mention that in all the cases I'm aware of, the boats had twin engines. This may simply be a coincidence as most 25' Whalers are rigged with twins.

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Author	Topic: 25' hull design flaw?
logjamslam	posted 02-16-2004 05:58 PM ET (US) I saw some old posts which described several 25'hulls that had major cracks in the vicinity of the fuel tank vent. The term design flaw was kicked around several times. Was there a design flaw in some of the 25' hulls or just several abused hulls surfacing at the same time by coincidence?
Tom W Clark	posted 02-16-2004 07:55 PM ET (US) logjamslam. Yes, this is a known problem. Whaler has a repair bulletin that describes how to repair a crack should one develop. I have a copy of those repair instructions. It is a pretty extensive repair that involves grinding back the fiberglass about five feet to either side of the crack and laying in special kevlar fiber matting to tie the two halves of the hull back together. In other words, it is an enormous band-aid. I have heard cost estimates of around $3,000 for this work.
logjamslam	posted 02-16-2004 08:10 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom, Are there certain years and models that were more prone to the problem? Do you remember the year of the bulletin? And did they do anything to beef up the area in later models? Also was that specific to the port side or were both sides affected?
Tom W Clark	posted 02-16-2004 08:23 PM ET (US) logjamslam, Those are all good questions, and I wish I knew the answers, but I do not. I received a FAXed copy of the repair instructions from Forum contributor Andy Roberts. I would love to have a better copy if anybody out there has one to share. Perhaps we could add it to the CW site if I could get a clean image of the drawings.
WSTEFFENS	posted 02-16-2004 08:44 PM ET (US) Tom: What series of boats does this apply? Date of manfacture etc,? Was there a warrenty bulliten? What was the cause of the crack and where? Thanks WLS
Tom W Clark	posted 02-16-2004 10:54 PM ET (US) Walt, I don't know the answers to your questions either. There's been some prior discussion. Here's one informative thread: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002574.html Clearly htis is a problem experienced by 25s that go out in big water, get some air and land on a wave crest.
Fishcop	posted 02-17-2004 12:00 AM ET (US) To all interested. The stress cracks on the Port side of my 25' Outrage Cuddy model seems to be from loading the bow and stern too heavy and taking heavy seas/chop. My "cuddy" model with an aftermarket bracket (30") seems to have found the breaking point of my boat. I have since removed the "cuddy cabin" from my boat and the cracks have halted in their tracks. Additionally, I have seen several(dozens)of non-cuddy 25' whalers that do not have this stress crack. I believe that as Tom points out, this model is suffering from abuse rather than a design flaw. But as Chuck from Whaler pointed out, there is a repair diagram from whaler for this problem (do they know?) I have not repaired the cracks as they only appear to affect the gelcoat. Member Royce has a similar 25' Cuddy and does not have any of the similar problems. He has the standard notched transom. Maybe the length of the boat with the extended bracket and weight of the cuddy causes the cracks? For Logjamsam & WLS, I do not know the answer. LHG has a beautiful 25' Outrage with twins on the transom and no problems. Same vintage and many more hours. What I can tell you is that the 25' classic hull is the best riding whaler I have owned. I love the way it takes the seas and rides over the chop. Get one and I am sure you will love it too. Andy
homey	posted 02-17-2004 04:57 PM ET (US) logjamslam, I have a 1991 25' Outrage/cuddy/whalerdrive, and NO CRACKS. This boat is used primarily in the Chesapeake Bay and offshore 30-50 miles. The boat is in great condition, structurally sound, and handles the ocean with ease. If the cracks were located on both port/starboard sides of the hull I would be concerned. The fact the cracks are located in the area of the fuel vent may indicate a minor flaw. I think the cracks are more cosmetic then anything. There are older 25's on the market, that have alot more life in them...I've never heard of any 25'Outrage breaking apart....Homey
logjamslam	posted 02-17-2004 06:19 PM ET (US) Andy & Homey Thanks for the reports with your experiences. I know that the 25's are great hulls, have enjoyed their seaworthiness and I would love to have one. After reading the words "design flaw" I was trying to learn if in fact there was a problem with certain models, or years or if there were just a few boats affected by severe conditions/hard use. I'm not worried about one coming appart, just trying to get the facts in order to keep from spending $$ on top of a purchase price for a repair that I could have avoided with a little research. The fact that there was no recall tends to make me think that there was not really a design flaw as such. The fact that they issued a repair bulletin demonstrates that they were willing to help owners solve problems. I would still like to know how many hulls experienced similar damage by year and by model. It would also be interesting to compare to the same figures for other hull lengths. I'm sure we will never know... Greg
Royce	posted 02-17-2004 11:42 PM ET (US) As Andy reported, I have a 1985 Outrage Cuddy with no cracks in the fuel fill area. Last year I talk to the head North American BW sales rep. at a show. I asked him about the reported cracks and he responded from his own experience as an owner of a 25' as well as what he had picked up around the company. He said that the fuel fill area is a spot where the hull and gunnell change crosssection and is the ideal hinge point to draw a point load. He thought the boats that experienced cracking generally had been rode very hard as a previous post explained. I'll keep my fingers crossed! By the way-he said his 25' has been his favorite whaler. Royce
doobee	posted 02-18-2004 07:53 PM ET (US) The boats I encountered with hull cracks were late '80s models. One was a Frontier with a Whalerdrive and one was a standard 25 center console. Both boats were used in extremely harsh conditions when the cracks occurred. As far as I know, the problem was not traced to any particular run of hulls. I believe that as soon as the problem was recognized, that area was reinforced with extra layers of roving. I would not shy away fom any particular model or year to avoid this problem, nor would I be afraid to own a model that has been properly repaired. If gelcoat cracks are appearing in the area of a previous repair, it does not necessarily mean that the repair is failing. Improperly mixed gelcoat can result in hairline cracks and color changes over time. Delamination and large, gaping, vertical cracks would be an indication of something more severe, but repairable.
doobee	posted 02-18-2004 07:58 PM ET (US) I forgot to mention that in all the cases I'm aware of, the boats had twin engines. This may simply be a coincidence as most 25' Whalers are rigged with twins.