posted 02-13-2011 10:35 PM ET (US)            

I can not see GM themselves jumping into the marine industry right now nor any time in the forseeable future.

posted 02-14-2011 09:50 AM ET (US)            

Mercruiser has a long history with GM engines. It's sister Mercury may find the concept interesting. The market would be small but two of those monsters may be more useful than four Verados for some owners of those monster outboard powered fishing or racing boats.

Do we have a clue as to the manufacturer that produced those engines? Has anyone recognized what make of boat they are mounted upon?

posted 02-14-2011 10:53 AM ET (US)            

I tend to agree that these boats are getting a little ridiculous with these massive triple, and quadruple outboards. At that point I think it's time for inboards or pod drives and my preference is usually toward outboards from a maintenance standpoint.

- Chris

posted 02-14-2011 12:13 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

If I remember right, the Corvette ZR1 and Z06 engines are made by Mercury Marine.

---

posted 02-14-2011 12:15 PM ET (US)            

Just like every piston engine helicopter engine? All of them from largest to smallest were designed one way and then turned 90 degrees with a modified oil system for the rotary wing application.

Dave

posted 02-14-2011 12:35 PM ET (US)            

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovation/powertrain-technology/pbc/ performance_build_center.jsp

posted 02-14-2011 01:19 PM ET (US)            

Yamaha had a hand in the design of that motor, too. Which is not surprising, because wasn't that the era when Mercury and Yamaha were partnered up?

posted 02-15-2011 06:33 AM ET (US)            

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/sraab928/Seven%20Outboard/seven1. jpg

posted 02-15-2011 07:17 AM ET (US)            

I cannot recall any other outboard manufacturer starting out their business with a high power outboard motor and no service/support network. The market is so small for super high HP outboard motors that they won't sell enough of these in volume to establish the needed support/service infrastructure on their own and I can't see anyone laying down $100k for a pair without the requisite service/support network. So I believe this venture must be getting backed by one of the majors, most likely Mercury.

posted 02-15-2011 08:14 PM ET (US)            

http://seven-marine.com/

posted 02-15-2011 08:30 PM ET (US)            

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/ 284094-chevy-big-block-outboard.html

More discussion, same jokes:

posted 02-16-2011 09:52 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The LSA 6.2 isn't "new" either. It's called "Marketing". There are a lot more new engines out there using some very sophisticated technology. The 6.2L isn't one. It's old school by every definition. Another pushrod, old tech, engine pushed forward for the marine industry.

---

Its a common misconception that the GENIII/IV Small Block Chevy is an old SBC that was updated. It is not, it was clean sheet design, GM engineering did research it for DOHC design and chose to use a pushrod design. Their is a lot of new technology in that design.

posted 02-16-2011 05:38 PM ET (US)            

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovation/powertrain-technology/engines/ specialized/marine/REV_3_2011_6200_LSA_Marine.pdf

Likewise, the Facebook page I have already provided demonstrates the connection between Intrepid and Seven Marine.

posted 02-17-2011 08:23 AM ET (US)            

Details on the drive train:
http://seven-marine.com/motors/features-and-benefits/
http://seven-marine.com/motors/technology/

posted 02-17-2011 10:35 AM ET (US)            

Seven Marine is a Wisconsin company led by Rick Davis, the former Vice President of Engine Development and Chief Technology Officer at Mercury.

One of their OEMs appears to be Hering Propellers, known for their own large five and six blade offshore propellers. The props in the photo above still look like the Mercury Maximus but they could be the Hering Bravo instead.

Note that the gearcase will accommodate propeller diameters up to 18" and is offered in three different gear ratios, 1.7:1, 1.75:1 and 1.85:1.

I also like that the power steering is entirely integral to the motor itself; no awkward pump installation in the boat and it associated rigging.

posted 02-17-2011 12:30 PM ET (US)            

SM is claiming 557hp at the prop shaft?

Closed loop cooling sounds like a good idea.

posted 02-17-2011 12:35 PM ET (US)            

Event the most powerful Mercury, the Verado 300 still weighs 2.12 pounds per horsepower.

I would not, however, expect the 557 to cost less per horsepower than any other outboard. Indeed I expect it to cost quite a bit more.

If a 300 HP Verado costs $22,000 that's $73.33 per HP. At that rate, the 557 would cost about $40,000 but there is no way a limited production new motor will not be more expensive. It may well be twice that.

posted 02-17-2011 09:27 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

http://www.unitedlandmark.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ULA. Intrepid.jpg

Note the motor in the background. It clearly shows a horizontally oriented crankshaft.

---

quote:

---

If a 300 HP Verado costs $22,000 that's $73.33 per HP. At that rate, the 557 would cost about $40,000 but there is no way a limited production new motor will not be more expensive. It may well be twice that.

---

Note that this (non-marinized) GM “LSA” 6.2L V-8 SC engine is rated at 556 HP. Coincidence?

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/ LSA-62L-SC-556-HP-Crate-Engine-19211708-P2385C2.aspx

posted 02-18-2011 08:16 AM ET (US)            

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/bluewaterpirate/ BW%20320%20Outrage/5571.jpg?t=1298034839

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/bluewaterpirate/ BW%20320%20Outrage/557.jpg?t=1298034930

Tom

posted 02-18-2011 11:16 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

So its basically a new version of I/O all packaged together and hung on a bracket on the outside of the transom.

---

posted 02-18-2011 01:55 PM ET (US)            

Compare at:

posted 02-18-2011 03:02 PM ET (US)         

Some very interesting features for engine, including closed loop cooling, so the only marine changes to the engine are a stainless exhaust, and the transmission in the mid section instead of lower unit allows adjusting the clutch slippage to allow slower trolling.

All major components are well tested in existing applications, just integrated into an outboard.

The transmission is from http://www.zf.com

Intrepid is working with them, and probably helping fund them. Intrepid wants to go bigger with outboards, but limited by 350hp. This will probably allow them to go over 50ft and still use outboards.

Much information in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU0RXc8gaqo

posted 02-18-2011 03:06 PM ET (US)            

This photo...

http://www.unitedlandmark.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ULA. Intrepid.jpg

...was taken at the Intrepid factory during the filming of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU0RXc8gaqo

The video has by far the most interesting and detailed description of what this motor is all about. Watch it, then go back and watch it frame by frame and you can see the compact shroud the houses the "proprietary transfer case".

I am also intrigued by the fact the gearcase has no shift mechanism in it; shifting is controlled in the mid-section housed transmission which also features a computer controlled clutch which will allow this powerful motor to slow to trolling speed while fishing.

posted 02-18-2011 04:18 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Pglein-boating Mag would beg to differ with you and so would I. I have seen many issues when they runsay a 40' cat with diesels and with outboards...quite amazing the money you save and the performance you gain

---

In the short term, sure. But over the long haul, the diesel is a more economical and practical engine to own, especially as you go up in size.

posted 02-18-2011 05:02 PM ET (US)            

[Changed topic to something completely unrelated to the new engine--please post comments on this completely separate topic in the thread that is running on that topic--jimh]

posted 02-19-2011 10:48 AM ET (US)            

We can see the physical size of the shroud around the transfer case.

Given that, I'm thinking belt or chain; there's not enough room for a sterndrive-like "upper."

It might be a shaft or maybe something entirely new (hydraulic?) but we will find out soon enough.

Seven Marine is being deliberately coy about revealing details of its "proprietary transfer case"

posted 02-19-2011 11:20 AM ET (US)         

Granted anything could be under the transfer case cover, maybe a shaft, a few gears in a line, but that cover shape is pretty indicative of a chain or belt.

posted 02-19-2011 11:45 AM ET (US)            

This is not a market ready product at this time.

posted 02-19-2011 02:42 PM ET (US)            

I suppose it could be some series of gears, but what would be so "proprietary" about that?

I also suppose it is theoretically possible there is nothing under that shroud right now. The motors have not yet been run on the water as far as I can tell and it may be a few months before they are.

Seven marine was only formed about a year ago. Obviously, the Miami Boat Show is the place to introduce new things and they have probably hustled these two motors cosmetically as far along as possible before loading them in the trailer and hitting the road from Mequon, WI.

posted 02-19-2011 02:51 PM ET (US)            

It appears they are simply using the LSA 6.2L SC motor from the Cadillac CTS-V, like this:

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/ LSA-62L-SC-556-HP-Crate-Engine-19211708-P2385C2.aspx

...rather than the marinized version of it:

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovation/powertrain-technology/engines/ specialized/marine/REV_3_2011_6200_LSA_Marine.pdf

Seven Marine also uses this engine is stock form with only two exceptions:

- They use their own double-walled stainless steel exhaust headers, reportedly to allow liquid cooling.

posted 02-19-2011 02:59 PM ET (US)            

The other innovation I see likely in the future is the first outboard motor with adjustable gearing, something we take for granted in a car.

posted 02-19-2011 04:28 PM ET (US)            

Great points,

I have watched this thread with alot of interest for all the "change" something like this can do.

As mentioned earlier, its a I/O stern drive converted to a Outboard. Look at the deck space and storage space it can clear up for more fuel, water, fishing gear on larger boats

As mentioned, when dealing with 500hp plus per engine, it can simplify installations from triples to twins or twins to a big single.

As mentioned and really important, IMO, a possible transmision, two speed or whatever it is. Finally a lower gear for getting up on plane and a higher ratio to hit those higher speeds big boats struggle to do.

It brings big horsepower previouslly available only to stern drive boats in the convience of outboards with some of those advantages being easier maintaince, raising gearcases out of the water vs stern drives always in the water, being able to raise drives up more for shallower water or beaching vs sterndrives, fixed shafts or pods.

Its a great concept, I hope these guys pull it off. Gotta give them high marks for what they are doing

posted 02-20-2011 02:02 AM ET (US)            

Belts can handle 557hp, it wouldn't be a single belt but 2 or 3 stacked. The draw backs are at high engine speeds (+4K RPM) everything needs to be perfectly balanced and tensioned; conversely low engine speeds the high torque can cause problems. -- Possible, yes, practical, likely not. But at $68K, you're buying something different.

It would be really cool if a CVT belt transmission is used.

Variable transmission would be great, but until you get a lower unit with a CPP there isn't much benefit.

posted 02-20-2011 09:43 AM ET (US)            

This maybe the most significant contribution this platform will contribute to boating. Long overdue....

posted 02-20-2011 10:42 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Variable transmission would be great, but until you get a lower unit with a CPP there isn't much benefit.

---

What is a CPP?

Peter -- Good question. It is 2011, I would have thought we would have seen one by now.

In other news, I heard the lower unit was designed by Rick Davis and manufactured by ZF, which makes sense.

I have to think much of the transmission shares parts with some ZF Pod Drive.

posted 02-20-2011 11:14 AM ET (US)            

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/Rod27_bhoto/IMG_0898.jpg

Note that like the Yamaha F350, they are using double upper mounting bolts. However, here Seven Marine has put the extra mounting bolts outside of the lateral spacing of the normal upper mounting bolts and additionally they have vertically staggered them slightly to help distribute the load to the transom more evenly.

posted 02-20-2011 12:04 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

I'm no expert on drag racing, but don't the 8000 horsepower top fuel dragsters use belts to drive their superchargers? The article I just read said that it takes 1000 horsepower just to drive the supercharger. Those engines turn over 8000rpm too, according to the article. Food for thought about belt drives.

---

There are no doubt belts that can handle the horsepower, but do they have the longevity? Dragster belts are one use throwaway, so the what 3-4inch wide belt only needs to last a few seconds under that load.

Some CVT transmissions do have belts, but I have never seen them used in that much HP.

Sure could be a belt, but I would think that would be a more risky move then a oil bathed chain for that kind of HP.

posted 02-20-2011 03:19 PM ET (US)         

The length of the transfer case pictured on the new outboard would make gears very impractical being heavy and difficult to make strong enough as there would need to be 4-5 sets of gears to go that distance with that narrow a cover vs a single chain and two gears.

Any kind of gear shifting would be handled in the transmission, which ZF makes multi speed one already I believe. There is no need to make the transfer case more complicated other than transferring power from engine output to transmission input. It sounds like the current transmission is single speed though, with a clutch slipping system to allow low trolling, docking prop rpm.

Chains can handle more power per for their size than a belt and last longer so long as chain stretch is handled via a tensioner.

Corrosion issues should be similar to 4-stroke valve train driven by chain or belt.

Complexity is no worse and may be less than a modern high power I/O or pod drive since it need not have any U-joints or pivots and those drives sit in the water 24/7 with no ability to raise them like an outboard.

posted 02-21-2011 08:02 AM ET (US)            

Yes, I get this. So an engine coupler of some sort (usually bolted to a flywheel) joins the crankshaft to the right-angle ZF transmission and then a shaft heads towards the lower unit where it makes a second right-angle change (prop shaft), right?

posted 02-21-2011 09:17 AM ET (US)            

2-557 3-350 Merc.
lbs. 2000 2010
Hp. 1114 1050
cyl. 16 18
cost $140,000. $63,000.

I would have to go with the Mercury's, sure can buy a lot of fuel for the $77,000. left over. These engines are obvious for the very rich, just so they can say I have one or two....To each his own

posted 02-21-2011 09:33 AM ET (US)            

The propellers are made by a manufacturer, Hering, who is known for their five and six blade propellers that are typically used on large fast offshore power boats that often have engines much more powerful than 557 HP.

posted 02-21-2011 09:41 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The optimum gap between 1st and 2nd speed will depend on each specific application. Parameters influencing this choice could be:

Hull design
Displacement
Longitudinal Centre of Gravity (LCG)
Total installed power
Propeller design
Operating profile (in particular, the requirement for higher acceleration and/or higher maximum speed).

IMPORTANT ! For every 2-Speed application, the propeller must be designed for the maximum boat speed when using the 2nd gear ratio. The optimum gear ratio combination must be confirmed after consultation with ZF Marine's technical department.

The higher ratio of the 1st speed permits higher acceleration and reduces the load on the engine. Manoeuvring in confined waters is also easier and the boat can be operated more safely in heavy sea conditions.

Optimised Choice of Ratios

The greatest benefit of the 2-Speed concept can be obtained by combining the advantages of improved acceleration, manoeuvring etc. with an increase in maximum boat speed.

If a large ratio gap is chosen, which covers the gear ratio normally selected for a conventional, single-speed installation, you have the optimum advantages. For instance, for a boat normally using ratio 1.524:1 as the best compromise between performance and ability to get on the plane, you can now optimise the acceleration by selecting a 2-Speed transmission with 1st ratio 1.778:1 and 2nd ratio 1.445 (or even 1.344) to give a higher boat speed.

---

See ZF's write up at zf-marine.com/Transmissions/2-SpeedConcept.cfm

Unlikely that we will see these on outboard motors, including the 7 Marine 557.

posted 02-21-2011 11:10 AM ET (US)         

quote:

---

Or maybe some are proposing that a belt goes between the crankshaft output down to a right-angle transmission located in the mid-section of the motor? I guess that could be done, doesn't make much sense though. I'm sure to be enlightened soon.

---

This is exactly what we are saying, the pictures of the engine clearly show the ZF transmission directly under the engine with a long transfer case cover over the crankshaft and transmission input shaped like a belt or chain.

Review this: http://seven-marine.com/images/features-midsection.png

And this: http://www.boats.com/blog/2011/02/ seven-marine-reveals-557-hp-outboard-at-miami-boat-show/

And note it's location.

They have outright said the transmission is in the mid section under the engine.

This makes perfect sense as far as layout and weight distribution goes, if the transmission where mounted directly to the engine crank the out board would be nearly twice as long with the midsection and lower unit pushed way back, the pivot point for trim would be way off.

posted 02-21-2011 04:41 PM ET (US)            

Thanks very much for answering my questions. I don't see why the engine would be "twice" as long by bolting the transmission to the flywheel nor do I see a balance point problem with the pivot point (everything could be adjusted forward or aft). At least I now see what is likely going on here. Thankyou.

posted 02-21-2011 05:33 PM ET (US)         

Second with that much horsepower a lower unit that included forward and reverse shifting would be large and impractical. By using an existing proven, but a larger transmission in the midsection, they get the power handling capability and some extra features such at clutch slippage control and perhaps multiple speeds. This also keep the LU down to a reasonable size to reduce drag.

posted 02-21-2011 06:56 PM ET (US)            

This means they don't have to design and build it, they just order it and the powerhead just drops in, and we know that in the future other GM motors in this same family will drop in and parts are as near as your local GM dealer.

posted 02-21-2011 08:11 PM ET (US)            

Of course, nothing is easier than when your lubricant is mixed with your fuel, like the good old days, (that missed). But that is an argument for a different thread. ;)

posted 02-21-2011 09:56 PM ET (US)         

Not only would the pan/scavenging system have to redesigned and moved to the end of the engine, but the valve train has to be modified as oil would pool in the wrong places up there and the oil channels in the engine changed to flow end to end to get the oil back to the pickups.

posted 02-22-2011 09:06 AM ET (US)            

I meant to reitterate that I think this product would be much nicer ultimately enjoy more longevity if the engine were on end. A suitably experienced and sized company could do it relatively easily and competitively.

posted 02-22-2011 12:01 PM ET (US)            

How much more could they get out of that platform with supercharging, remapping, etc? Close enough to be a competitor to Marine 7s 557? Seems like if they wanted to be in this game they could get there pretty fast

posted 02-22-2011 12:52 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

How much more could they get out of that platform with supercharging, remapping, etc? Close enough to be a competitor to Marine 7s 557?

---

Big problem is still going to be the lower unit transmission. Very difficult to make one that does reverse and is small and hydrodynamic and can handle over 350hp.

posted 02-22-2011 01:32 PM ET (US)            

If these outboards ever make it to production, I bet the sell less than 1000 per year and most of those will be sold in the look-at-me Southern Florida market. The major outboard makers are unliklely to be motivated and tool up to make bigger traditional outboards that merely cannibalize their existing sales for a tiny market.

posted 02-22-2011 01:55 PM ET (US)            

If these outboards ever make it to production, I bet the sell less than 1000 per year and most of those will be sold in the look-at-me Southern Florida market. The major outboard makers are unliklely to be motivated and tool up to make bigger traditional outboards that merely cannibalize their existing sales for a tiny market.

posted 02-22-2011 02:46 PM ET (US)            

If these outboards ever make it to production, I bet the sell less than 1000 per year and most of those will be sold in the look-at-me Southern Florida market. The major outboard makers are unliklely to be motivated and tool up to make bigger traditional outboards that merely cannibalize their existing sales for a tiny market.

posted 02-22-2011 03:27 PM ET (US)            

If the boat companies start building larger outboard boats, like these reports indicate Intrepid is willing to do, the big manufacturers like Mercury will follow suit to provide adequate power for them.

The real reason they've not moved in this direction is that there are very few hulls out there that need that much outboard power to drive efficiently, and they've developed some very good systems that synchronize engines, etc to help accomodate some of the complexity brought on in the limited triple and quad outboard installation market. If the boat builders go bigger, and the buyers look for twin 557's as an alternative to quads, Merc, Evinrude and Yamaha will follow with a larger engine to play in that market. The profit margins are just too juicy to pass up!

posted 02-22-2011 04:12 PM ET (US)            

At 140k per pair for unproven products, I really do not see a pair of these displacing Yamaha's 350s that can be had for 100k or less. On a big offshore boat, if you lose one motor with this pair, you've lost 50 percent of your power and are running 500 HP on a big boat with a propeller that is too small to do anything but beat air into the water. With triple power, if you lose one, you still have 700 HP put to the water through two props.

posted 02-22-2011 04:25 PM ET (US)            

Witness:
Chia-(anything)
Anything from Ronco or sold by Ron Popeil
Spandex on anyone but true athletes

and so on.

posted 02-22-2011 04:41 PM ET (US)            

Are charter fishing boats still packing in the customers wanting to pay $200-500 for a day of fishing?

Isn't the manufacture of huge outboards kind of like manufacturing Suburban SUVs when gas prices are approaching $4/gallon?

Warren

posted 02-22-2011 04:49 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

"If its a canal cruiser, then the 557s would be fine."

---

posted 02-22-2011 05:52 PM ET (US)            

Controllable Pitch Propeller (CPP)

As mentioned a few posts above, boats with transmissions are tuned and optimized at a few speeds that are dictated by propeller performance at "x" speed (or other desired criteria).

A CPP gives you more options, and in most cases more efficiency (or performance) at several target speeds, conditions, etc. These options become more prevalent once you get into higher hp, such as 557.

posted 02-22-2011 08:14 PM ET (US)         

CCP's would be great on a outboard, but it's difficult to make one strong enough that small, not to mention all that could go wrong with it.

posted 04-03-2011 08:18 PM ET (US)            

http://www.jsonline.com/business/119135949.html

It adds this (ambiguous) bit of information that I'd not yet read:

posted 04-06-2011 11:05 AM ET (US)            

And to answer a recurring question: Although we look forward to doing lots of business with Intrepid, there is no exclusive arrangement or joint ownership between our two companies - just a mutual desire to be the best at what we do, harnessed together for a really potent presentation at Miami 2011.



Now, next steps for Seven: We will be getting our first two 557s to the water soon. Based on input from key suppliers and customers since the Miami show, we decided to update the design of the transfer case and the water pumps, making both more compact and improving serviceability. Additionally, the new features of the transfer case expand our gear ratio options, allowing us to accommodate a broader range of customer applications.

Following a careful final grooming of "The Twins," we will begin our initial in-water tests at a top-secret location sometime during the next several weeks. We would tell you where, but like we said, it is top secret. Then we will make any and all necessary adjustments to the equipment and head for open water, we suspect, with the press and our soon-to-be customers in pursuit.



Between various testing and validation protocols, sea trials, and demonstrations for the industry (and a little joy riding), we expect to spend the next six months on the water in various locations, from Wisconsin, to Rhode Island, to Florida.

All the while, we will be outfitting our new factory in Wisconsin and preparing the first production motors for fourth quarter delivery to our first group of most valued customers. We are guessing at least a few of you are reading this.