posted 01-31-2014 12:27 AM ET (US)            

http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/brochure_pdfs/2014_brochure/BFT2014Brochure.pdf

60 to 250 hp appear to be re-badged Honda's

40 and 50 hp outwardly appear much different then Honda.

posted 01-31-2014 06:49 PM ET (US)            

Further, the VRO tank used by the looper sat inside the boat, probably a foot or more in front of the transom. To be comparable to the 4-stroke weight, that VRO tank would have to be mounted in a way that the center of its mass would hang about a foot aft of the transom.

posted 01-31-2014 08:36 PM ET (US)            

The classic 15inch transom 13 Whalers do not do well with that much weight at all or even close with the original 15inch transom cutout. I have even run one with a manual tilt 15inch 40hp Evinrude and it still sat way too low even just sitting at the dock.

posted 02-01-2014 11:24 AM ET (US)            

For a 20" transom 13 footer I would not want any motor much over 175 pounds.

For a 15" transom, just find a good ol' Johnson, Evinrude or Mercury 25 HP motor that weighs not much more that 100 pounds.

posted 02-03-2014 08:56 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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60 to 250 hp appear to be re-badged Honda's

---

Tohatsu has partnered with Honda and is selling the Honda outboard engines under Tohatsu branding in North American (and perhaps elsewhere, I am not really sure). For one manufacturer to enter into a partnership with another manufacturer, to buy engines from their partner, to re-badge the engines with different paint schemes and identification decals, and to sell their competitor's engines under their own brand is a common practice in the outboard engine business, but there are a couple of things about the Tohatsu-Honda relationship that are unusual and worth remarking about.

The normal partnership arrangement in outboard manufacturing has been for a USA company to buy engines from a Japanese company, and then re-badge them for sale in North American under the USA branding. In the case of Tohatsu and Honda, we have two Japanese companies involved, one buying from the other. I don't know if the agreement with Honda allows Tohatsu to sell the re-badged engines anywhere else besides North America. But in North America you will find Japanese-made Honda engines being sold under the Tohatsu (Japanese) brand. This is a bit unusual.

Another very unusual aspect of the Tohatsu-Honda relationship is the existing and prior relationship between Tohatsu and Brunswick. Tohatsu has been manufacturing outboard engines and selling them to Brunswick for many years. Tohatsu replaced Yamaha as Brunswick's source of engines following a very chilly relationship between Brunwick and Yamaha that occurred after Brunswick initiated a complaint about underselling of outboard engines from Japan in the North American market with the USA International Trade Commission. The charges made by Brunswick were not sustained by the findings of the investigation, in part because the evidence showed that Brunswick was one of the largest importers of outboard engines made in Japan, and it would hardly be possible to punish Yamaha for importing engines and not Brunswick.

Now Brunswick buys most of their small four-stroke-power-cycles from Tohatsu, although they have constructed an intermediary company (TMC) they refer to as a joint venture with Tohatsu to be the corporate entity that makes the engines. But there is no confusion, Brunswick buys engines made by Tohatsu. When it came time for Tohatsu to buy some higher-horsepower outboard engines, Tohatsu did not extend their partnership with Brunswick to be the source of those engines, but instead partnered with Honda.

posted 02-04-2014 11:58 AM ET (US)            

http://www.boatingmag.com/engines/outboards/ honda-to-private-label-large-outboards-tohatsu

the Tohatsu-branded Honda-made outboard engines will be sold in the USA and in 17 other countries.

That article expands the distribution of the Tohatsu-branded Honda-made engines. A prior report in TradeOnly mentioned only USA distribution. Compare at

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2013/08/ tohatsu-america-joins-with-honda-on-outboard-lineup/

The topic of the agreement between Tohatsu and Honda to sell Honda-made engines under the Tohatsu branding was covered in a thread that began about six months ago, when the announcement was first made. See

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022266.html

It is interesting to note that thread has been pruned of wild and unfounded speculation, and, while it does contains some opinions, those opinions are clearly expressed as such.

posted 02-04-2014 03:38 PM ET (US)            

http://www.nissan-marine.co.jp/engin/225-200.html

The reason that I claim your post is speculation is because you do not have any insight as to the normal partnership agreement or joint venture information of any of these companies. Regardless of if it is with Honda/Tohatsu or Nissan/Tohatsu or Tohsatsu/Brunswick or Yamaha/Brunswick or BRP/Suzuki. It is all speculation without any proof. Companies do this all the time but it is all hearsay as these agreements are normally proprietary. Since we do not know any of this we can only guess. The same way we do not know if Tohatsu has actually been handling the marine affairs for Nissan and if Tohatsu always had a connection with Honda for engines.

posted 02-04-2014 03:43 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/020968.html

In that thread I give concise references and clear citations to all of the elements of my statements above. Perhaps you can enjoy an hour or two of reading with an open mind.

posted 02-04-2014 03:48 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Nissan has been rebadging Honda's since Fall of 1998.
http://www.nissan-marine.co.jp/engin/225-200.html

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I am afraid I cannot read written Japanese in any of the popular glyphs, so I have no idea what is said on that page. I am already aware of that page, as it appears in the thread I just cited for you. But I find nothing in it that mentions 1998 or a partnership.

posted 02-04-2014 04:02 PM ET (US)            

--it was Japan buying from Japan for re-badging and sale in USA, and

--it was Tohatsu NOT buying from their partner Mercury.

Neither of these are in any way speculation. They are clear and well-known facts. The persistence at which OMCRobert insists they are speculation leads me to believe that he must be upset by these circumstances. The more facts disagree with an existing belief system, they harder they are to accept as facts. This is unfortunately a characteristic of human nature, so I am able to forgive OMCRobert for his stubborn attempts to dismiss the facts; they must be in conflict with his beliefs.

I really do not know what goes on in the Japanese outboard market. If Nissan (Japan) buys from Honda (Japan) for sale in Nippon (Japan), it is not something I am following with much attention; I don't go shopping for outboard engines in Japan. Maybe they've been doing this in Dutch Guyana, too. That does not really make my comment about it happening in the USA and Canada as a speculative statement. I remarked about a Japanese manufacturing buying engines from another Japanese manufacturer for re-badging and sale in the USA and Canada. I remarked about it because it was remarkable.

Also, I did not bring up the topic of Honda and Tohatsu. That was introduced to the thread by someone else.

I would really prefer to hear more about Tohatsu 40 and 50-HP engines.