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Author Topic:   New Mercury Engine
ktm3ten posted 01-29-2015 01:09 PM ET (US)   Profile for ktm3ten   Send Email to ktm3ten  
What could be [the development that Mercury is foreshadowing will be shown on February 12, 2015?]
Peter posted 01-29-2015 01:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
400 HP Verado.
jimh posted 01-29-2015 05:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If the new engine is a 400-HP VERADO, then I'd say, "About time." The VERADO was revealed about 12-years ago, I recall, and thirty seconds after it was first shown, the Mercury fanboys began to talk about the nearly unlimited potential for more horsepower for the VERADO. I have been waiting about 12 years to see that potential realized. I hope that February 12, 2015 will finally demonstrate fanboys were on to something, even if it's 12-years later.
Peter posted 01-30-2015 07:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The current rumor floating around is that the Verado 350 SCi with the shorter warranty will be bumped up to 400 HP and that the 350 SCi will become an ordinary 350 with the normal warranty.

With boats like the 420 Outrage having a 1675 HP maximum HP capacity, Mercury needs to raise the HP level of the ordinary outboards from 300 to something significantly higher. Otherwise even 5 Verado 300 HP outboards (if it could fit 5) on its transom would still be 175 HP short of the maximum HP capacity of the 420 Outrage.

jimh posted 01-30-2015 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In the 12-years that the VERADO six-cylinder has been available, we have heard of only a few re-powers with that engine for an older Boston Whaler boat. There are not really many older Boston Whaler boats where a 350-HP or a 400-HP outboard could be used with great advantage. The present 300-HP model seems more than enough power for a Boston Whaler boat designed in an era when the most powerful outboards were only 225-HP.

Cranking up the supercharger boost to get 400-HP will help improve the power to weight ratio, but that extra 100-HP is only going to come into play at the very end of the throttle range, the last few MPH of boat speed.

The 400-HP VERADO, if there actually is going to be one, will be an engine for some very limited applications, where speed is really important, and, just as likely, where prestige is really important.

If we look at boat speed, we know that generally increase in speed is in proportion to HP-to-weight increase to the 0.5 exponent. If a boat were to re-power to 400-HP from 300-HP and maintain the same weight, the boat speed would improve by (4/3)^0.5 or 1.15:1. For example, if the boat could hit 50-MPH with 300-HP, it would probably go 57.7-MPH with 400-HP.

In the real world of everyday boating, most people seldom run at 50-MPH in their Boston Whaler boats, and the allure of being able to go 57.7-MPH instead of just 50-MPH is probably not overwhelming.

Mercury is a smart marketing company, and they must know that in the marketplace there are some buyers awaiting a VERADO with more horsepower. If Mercury does come out with a 400-HP there will be some guys in Florida within a 50-mile radius of Miami that will have to get one, two, three, or four of them on the transom of their boat as soon as possible.

Peter posted 01-30-2015 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mercury is not developing these motors for repowering older boats. These motors are being developed for large center console boats requiring 1000 HP or more. If the rumor turns out to be true, these motors will be found on the transom of large center console boats, like the 420 Outrage, needing a minimum of 3 or 4 outboards to power them.

The additional output probably comes from using a different pulley on the supercharger (or perhaps a different supercharger) coupled with larger injectors and different engine mapping including waste gate control. If the modifications are anything like the modifications on one of my supercharged cars, it is likely that the change in output will be felt along the entire operating range, not just at the end of the range near WOT. The large boats to which they are targeting these motors need additional low end power, not just a few extra ponies at the top.

Don SSDD posted 02-01-2015 06:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
Not knowledgeable about superchargers, but assume similar to a turbo in performance. A remap of a turbo and maybe bigger injectors (usually not necessary for a 25% increase in power) can easily achieve a 25% increase in HP and torque across the full normal operating range. I guess that would allow a change in final drive ratio and prop size to get more top end speed, otherwise that extra power only makes a car quicker.

Unless the 350HP motor is already maxed out, adding 50HP could be relatively cheap and easy (maybe emissions certification costs would add to it?).

Just bring your wallet for a significant increase in bragging rights.

Don

Teak Oil posted 02-01-2015 08:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Jim your assumptions are incorrect.

A boosted engine, whether by turbo or supercharger, does not simply use the extra power at the top of the power band. It is "on demand" any time the load increases on the engine. If the Verado supercharger supplies 10# of boost to the engine, it will give 10# at 3000 rpm or 10# at 6000 rpm. Turn it up to 12# max, and you get 12# of boost across the range.

The torque increase is especially noticeable when you need it, in a boat that is when you are getting on plane. Boosted engines truly are the best of both worlds, with increased power at the bottom AND top of the rpm range

Peter posted 02-01-2015 08:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The rumor of a nominal 400 HP model Verado can be confirmed by looking at the certification data submitted by Mercury to the California Air Resources Board in November 2014. In the certification report, there is a list of Verado model numbers along with their engine displacement, rated HP, rated engine speed, peak torque and peak torque engine speed.

In the list, Verado model numbers begin with a 1 and are then followed by either a 22, 25, 30, 35 or 40 and then a bunch of other numbers and letters. For example a model number of a Verado 250 in the list is 125V13KD and there is a Verado 300 model that bears the number 130V13BD. The two digit number following the 1 correspond to the nominal cowling HP designation, namely, the two digit numbers correspond as follows

22=225
25=250
30=300
35=350
40=400

I will call the three initial numbers the "prefix". For models bearing the 140 prefix, the certification data shows a rated power of 281 kW (376 HP) at 7000 RPM with a peak torque of 430 N-m at 4500 RPM. The models bearing the 135 prefix are indicated to have a rated power of 252 kW (337 HP) at 5800 RPM with a peak torque of 430 N-m at 4500 RPM. With the same peak torque specifications, it appears that the additional HP of the "400" model is all at the top as Jim suspected, coming simply from letting the engine turn higher RPM.

The Verado line continues to be only CARB 2-Star rated according to the certification report.

jimh posted 02-01-2015 09:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I don't know what you guys are talking about regarding horsepower and engine speed. You are not getting 400-HP out of the VERADO except in the very highest range of its engine speeds, probably in the 5500 to 6000-RPM range. These claims that you get 400-HP out of the VERADO everywhere are baffling to me. If you have a plot of VERADO horsepower as function of engine speed, can I please see it. Otherwise, I assume it is like any other engine: its rated horsepower comes at the very top of its engine speed range. The difference between the 350-HP and the 400-HP is only going to be noticed when you are just about at the end of the throttle.
jimh posted 02-01-2015 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Peter--Great work, as usual. I have to repress a smile. The 400-HP VERADO only makes 376-HP, eh? I thought, because it was a Mercury, that the 400-HP VERADO would make 440-HP, as I have long been schooled to believe by the fanboys.

Maybe you can make up for the missing horsepower by using an ENERTIA ECO propeller.

Jefecinco posted 02-01-2015 10:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
The Gen II (or 2) Verado four cylinder engines have a horsepower rating of 135 (now 150) to 200. The only difference between the 135 and 200 HP Verados are the stickers on the cowlings and the ECU/ECM. They use the same supercharger, injectors, displacement, compression ratio, and parts.

I assume supercharger boost and fuel flow rates managed by the ECU/ECM are the major differences between the engines. Some subtle changes to spark timing and or advance curves may also be involved.

There is a firm in California which is squeezing out around 207 dyno certified HP by remapping the ECM/ECU. That increase is on premium fuel. I would prefer to change the OEM ECU/EDM but they are reportedly rather carefully controlled by Mercury.

Butch

Don SSDD posted 02-01-2015 01:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
Jim, I don't know about supercharged Verados in particular, but with modern cam and fuel injection system, with a turbo, with the computer you can bump HP and torque across the RPM range. Old technology had say 90+% of peak HP from 4500-5500 RPM, new tech you can get 90+% of HP from 2000-6000 RPM. The peak number is the same but it is there in a useful RPM across the board.
Like you said, the HP and torque curve would tell the tale, and that is not published by Mercury.

Maybe the next move for BRP is a turbo/supercharged 2 stroke diesel? Double the power and half the fuel consumption?

VW have a gas racing Beetle turbo 1.6L making 554HP and a concept 2 cylinder gas making 198HP, they would likely blow the doors off a 400HP Merc on a power to weight basis?

Don

Peter posted 02-01-2015 04:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
It makes sense that the Verado 400 model would be setup to simply turn higher RPM than the 350 model. That way an equal or lower pitch propeller can be used to maintain the low and mid-range thrust rather than losing it to a higher pitch propeller that would be needed to keep the RPMs in a lower WOT range.

The situation is similar to the Yamaha F60 and F70. The F70 turns 300 RPM higher at WOT and as such the same pitch propeller would be used on both motors on the same boat with the F70 having more HP being capable of turning it faster at WOT.

Teak Oil posted 02-01-2015 10:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Jim,

You stated that the only difference in performance between a 350 and 400 Verado would be at the top of the rpm range. I stated that in fact the additional performance of the Verado 400 would be felt across the entire usable range, that the 400 would be capable of making more torque than the 350 at all levels of engine speed.

Go Patriots!

jimh posted 02-01-2015 11:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I said the extra horsepower comes in only at end of the throttle. Where do you think it comes in?
Peter posted 02-02-2015 10:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The same peak torque numbers at the same RPM in the CARB certification data as stated above for both the 350 and the 400 does not support the idea that the 400 is able to make more torque or power than the 350 at all engine speeds.

There is probably no difference between the motors except that the engine control unit allows the 400 to turn to a higher WOT RPM than the 350.

Teak Oil posted 02-02-2015 12:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
How can you make that generalization, Peter?

To make 50 more hp, there is probably more engine timing, premium fuel requirements, more boost pressure, possibly different head gaskets, head torque, larger intercooler, different compression pistons, etc.

The 400 is a Mercury Racing division motor, with a racing warranty most likely, similar to what the 350 SCi is now.


Jim,

Horsepower is a computation based on torque vs rpm. Make more torque at any given rpm, you get more hp. I have operated many different types of vehicles with super chargers and turbos. More boost always equals more torque.

Peter posted 02-03-2015 07:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Here's how I look at it -- According to the Mercury CARB certification data, the 225 through 300 models all make their rated HP at the SAME 6100 RPM. The 225 through 300 models all have DIFFERENT peak torques occurring at DIFFERENT RPM. As such, it seems fair to conclude that the power curves up to 6100 RPM are different.

Now compare that to the 350 and 400 models. The 350 and 400 have their rated HP at DIFFERENT RPM, 5800 and 7000 RPM respectively, but the 350 and 400 have the SAME peak torque occurring at the SAME RPM. From that I suspect that the power curves for the 350 and 400 models are the same up to 5800 and then differ beyond that, namely that the 400 model is allowed to spin to at least 7000 RPM and the 350 model is not and it is in that range where the extra 1 to 40 HP difference shows. I've not seen any published information that would lead me to conclude the opposite, namely, that the 400 produces more power through out the entire operating range than the 350 as might be expected from the 225 to 300 models which have the same operating range.

jimh posted 02-03-2015 10:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
TEAK OIL writes:

quote:
Jim...stated that the only difference in performance between a 350 and 400 Verado would be at the top of the rpm range.

I said the added 50-HP would occur only at the top of the RPM range. I think this is a reasonable assumption. It would be more likely for the engine to produce the extra 50-HP at the top of its RPM range than it would to suggest the engine produces the extra 50-HP at idle speed.

quote:
I stated that in fact the additional performance of the Verado 400 would be felt across the entire usable range, that the 400 would be capable of making more torque than the 350 at all levels of engine speed.

I don't see any basis for your claim of "in fact." Your answer presumes your answer is a fact. There is no basis for that presented. It's just your view, and it remains to be established as a fact.

Without a valid chart plotting of engine horsepower output as a function of engine speed, we cannot be certain how the power output of a 350-HP VERADO compares to the hypothetical 400-HP VERADO, but it seems quite reasonable to me to anticipate that the difference will be found only at the highest engine speeds.

jimh posted 02-03-2015 11:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Another theory for the new development that Mercury is hinting at with its many teaser presentations may be the use of larger displacement and direct injection to obtain better performance. Mercury has already shown us a substantial deviation from the VERADO technology by introducing a line of engines without supercharging. Those engines, called colloquially "the new FourStroke engines" to differentiate them from the many prior models given the same name, employ larger displacement and do not use super charging. Perhaps the development that Mercury will add will be direct injection, a modern method used very widely in new automobile engines. Or perhaps they will add cam phasing, another modern engine method used almost universally now in automobile engines. Or, even more radical, perhaps they will dispense with the cam shaft and use directly controlled electrical solenoid valves. There are a lot of possibilities.

If we find out in a few days that the development consists of nothing more than adding more supercharger boost and letting the engine accelerate to higher rotational speeds, one might ask why it took 12-years to get there.

Peter posted 02-03-2015 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The Verado models bearing the 135 and 140 model designations are listed in the CARB certification data with the other Verado models. All such models listed have 2598cc as their stated displacement.
jimh posted 02-03-2015 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Regarding the difference one might experience by having a 400-HP engine on the transom of a Boston Whaler boat instead of a 350-HP engine: if you take a canal cruise to a popular water-front restaurant in Florida, you can anticipate having more gawkers and on-lookers around your boat if you have the 400-HP engine.
OMCguru posted 02-04-2015 08:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
If the rumors are true then the 400hp will be from the racing division. Not designed specifically for pleasure boating. The same as trying to put a 280hp 2.5 liter race offshore with a sportmaster on a 23ft Dauntless.

While the racing engines have become more user friendly in the past several years, their target market is still to go fast.

Peter posted 02-04-2015 09:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
At least from the model number convention used in the certification data, it seems that the 400 model will not be an "SCi" from the racing group.

Mercury NEEDS high HP non-racing motors with reasonable recreational length warranties to put on the transom of boats like the Boston Whaler 420 Outrage with a 1675 HP capacity. Otherwise it will have to go outside to propulsion vendors like Seven Marine.

OMCguru posted 02-04-2015 09:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
What does the current 350SCI look like on certification data? Is it separate from the existing verados?

Do you have link to this data? Any other brands lists? New G2 Evinrudes? Thank you.

Peter posted 02-04-2015 11:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Data shows rated power of 257kW (344 HP) at 6500 RPM and peak torque of 431 N-m at 4000 RPM. Data can be seen at www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/eo/2015/sime/u-w-001-0402.pdf

There are G2 certifications but they don't have any HP and torque data, for whatever reason.

All other brands also have certifications as they must if they want to sell product in California.

ktm3ten posted 02-12-2015 11:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for ktm3ten  Send Email to ktm3ten     
I'm thinking there's more to this than the 400 verado. The new video shows what appears to be an aluminum fishing boat and a pontoon, neither a great candidate for a 400 Verado. 200 Fourstroke? PLEASE???
Robert V posted 02-12-2015 11:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Robert V  Send Email to Robert V     
The new Mercury Verado 400R is up on the Mercury Racing website. It is indeed spinning faster, the RPM range is 6,400-7,000 versus the Verado 300/350 at 5,800-6,400. There are some pictures of it's debut in Miami that I found on another forum. The advertised dry weight is 668 pounds.
jimh posted 02-13-2015 07:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Can we have a URL to some information on this new engine, please.
saumon posted 02-13-2015 08:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for saumon  Send Email to saumon     
http://www.mercuryracing.com/rumor-mills-r-black-white/

There's also a full specs sheet at the end of the article.

welldan18650 posted 02-13-2015 08:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for welldan18650  Send Email to welldan18650     
Unveil is just a monster stern drive, booh.
saumon posted 02-13-2015 08:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for saumon  Send Email to saumon     
Link to specs sheet: http://d29pb6nrvp2amd.cloudfront.net/images/phocagallery/verado400r/ mercury_racing_verado400r_specs.pdf
welldan18650 posted 02-13-2015 09:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for welldan18650  Send Email to welldan18650     
Seven marine actually made the big outboard announcement. The 557 is no longer the big dog, strap the monster 627 to your transom and hold on tight. I've always been fascinated that they are the only completely closed loop cooling motor available. Keep the salt in the ocean and out of my motor please.
bluewaterpirate posted 02-13-2015 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
They're installed on numerous boats at the Miami Boat Show.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/boat-shows-photos/ 499438d1423775359-miami-boat-show-thread-image.jpg

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/boat-shows-photos/ 499340d1423756927-miami-boat-show-thread-screenshot_2015-02-12-10-58-48. jpg

Here's the 627 .....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/ 10865920_900883536601402_3582269535981457667_o.jpg

Tom

Robert V posted 02-13-2015 05:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Robert V  Send Email to Robert V     
Here is the website link where I found the information; http://www.mercuryracing.com/outboards/engines/verado-400r/
jimh posted 02-13-2015 05:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
At first glance, it looks like the most significant deviations from the prior art of the plain ol' VERADO we have known for 12 years are:

--water-cooled supercharger to reduce temperature and increase density of the air intake charge;

--improved compensation of timing and fuel-air mixtures when running on lower octane fuel; and,

--racing-grade lower unit gear cases for operating at higher boat speeds.

jimh posted 02-13-2015 05:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please post comments about the Seven Marine engine in the thread that has been discussing those products. See

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022907.html

Comments about Seven Marine engines will be deleted from this thread.

jimh posted 02-13-2015 05:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Is there any classic Boston Whaler boat hull that could utilize one of these 400-HP outboard engines to advantage?
Whaler27 posted 02-13-2015 06:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaler27  Send Email to Whaler27     
Yes, a Vigilant 32 with an Armstrong Drive.

However, why? What fisherman wants to turn 6,000 plus RPMS besides a KingFish runner from the East.

Now on a go fast boat, maybe. Just don't see long term reliability with such high rev's.

Jefecinco posted 02-13-2015 07:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Go-fast fishing boats are popular in areas where the best fishing requires long offshore runs. I can't speak for the left coast but there are several areas far off the Atlantic and Gulf coasts with excellent fishing.

Fishermen prefer to spend time fishing rather than traveling.
Go-fast boats make that possible.

Another example are boats involved in tournament fishing when it is a requirement to reach the weigh-in station by a certain time, usually daylight. When fishing for thousands of dollars in prize money the tournament guys like to fish until the last possible minute in hopes of catching the winning fish. A go-fast boat is very useful in the race to weigh-in the catch.

Fishermen with fewer resources often venture far offshore in the afternoon, enjoy a night on the boat and begin fishing on prime spots by dawn.

Butch

Whaler27 posted 02-14-2015 10:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whaler27  Send Email to Whaler27     
Yes, on your left coast we often venture 100 to 150-miles offshore but don't expect to try and get there in two hours. The Pacific is rarely condusive to traveling faster than 40-knots.

The Vigilant 35 with twin Yamaha 300 engines takes us to 47-knots, that's plenty of speed and range with a 12-foot-beam boat on the Pacific, plus we actually get home 100-percent of the time with stellar reliability which is not a hallmark of Mercury Marine.

The happiest day ever was removing Mercury Marine powerplants from this boat and adding Yamaha engines.

We were waiting to see if Yamaha would put out a 400-HP. But not on the V8 based block that thing is worse than Mercury Marine's--a real piece of engineering nightmares--so not all products from a line are all good or all bad!

jimh posted 02-14-2015 10:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Did the displacement change in the new engine?
Robert V posted 02-15-2015 10:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for Robert V  Send Email to Robert V     
No, still 2.6L.
dgoodhue posted 02-16-2015 06:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
The Mercury Racing 400 Verado is not going direct affect Boston Whaler, but its introduction may indirectly affect some model Whaler power option going forward. Boston Whaler traditionally does not use Mercury Racing engines.

I noticed on Mercury Racing's website that the 350 SCi is no longer offered, but the Verado 350 is now offered as recreation use Mercury Marine engine. There are a few examples of Boston Whaler models where 2 different size models share the same top engine choice. For instance, the Outrage 350 and 370 (three 300 Verado) and Outrage 280 v. 320 (two 300 Verado). Side note: the smaller Outrage 350's maximum power is 1050 vs 370's 900-HP I looked around Mercury Marine website and found that they have a test of a Outrage 370 with three 350-HP Verado with a test dated of 2-8-2015.

The new 320 Vantage also has a maximum power of 700-HP where the 320 Outrage has a 600-HP max rating.

I also noticed on Mercury Marine website that the 150-HP Verado is also no longer available. I assuming that the 150 FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO has replace this model.


jimh posted 02-16-2015 07:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Thanks for the most interesting news that Brunswick has withdrawn the small-displacement supercharged electronic-shift-and-throttle four-cylinder 150-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO and apparently replaced it with their big-displacement no-supercharging manual-shift-and-throttle FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO model. I think I predicted that this would happen.

The 150-HP VERADO was a nice engine, but it must have been very expensive to manufacture. Selling it into the highly competitive 150-HP outboard market probably left Brunswick with terribly thin margins. By replacing it with the very simple, throw-back to the 1960's outboard they very likely have increased their margins and given themselves more room to sell the engine at a profit.

Mercury almost always competes on price, and goes for the lowest price point. Selling their four-cylinder VERADO engines under their real value due to marketplace competition was probably hurting them.

Now they have completely reversed their marketing approach, and instead of selling small-displacement supercharged engines with electronic controls, they are trying to convince their customers that they really should buy large displacement engines without superchargers and no electronic controls.

I wonder how the prices of the 150-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO and the 150-HP FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO compared before the 150-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO was pulled back from the market. Was there much difference?

OMCguru posted 02-16-2015 10:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
You don't see many outboard engines below 200-HP with electronic controls. Some companies offer it as an option but that premium feature is often left off because that outboard engine horsepower range is very competitive. Price is normally the biggest force with electronic controls adding upwards of $2,000 to the price. I don't think any company has ever offered electronic controls on anything below 135-HP.

I will be very interested to see if Evinrude offers the intergrated steering and electronic controls on their 2.6 liter v6 engines if they unveil G2 on that model line up.

Jefecinco posted 02-17-2015 08:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
At this point, at least, I feel fortunate to have a 135 HP Mercury Verado engine with Digital Throttle and Shift (DTS) on my Montauk.

The performance of the Verado has been very satisfactory. It is a strong engine and performs beyond expectations for it's rating. The DTS is silky smooth and having enjoyed it for over five years I hope to never have to operate a boat without it. The hydraulic steering included with the package is also a large plus most of the time.

I don't know if DTS is available with the newer non-Verado 150 HP engine but if it is I highly recommend it.

My gripe with the hydraulic steering is that there is no constant wheel center position making it impossible to mark a king spoke for easy maneuvering in close quarters. It is not convenient to have to constantly look over my shoulder to see the engine position. At least the requirement for constant sharp steering corrections is infrequent.

Butch

jimh posted 02-18-2015 09:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
On the notion that the 150-HP FOURSTROKE VERAOD has been removed from the Mercury line, leaving only the 150-HP FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO, it is interesting to review some prior comments on the possibility of this happening.

On 10-08-0211--about five years ago, which seems really odd because I didn't think the 150-HP FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO AKA VERADOSAURAS has been around that long--Tom W. Clark said:

quote:
...much of the case made for this new Mercury 150 FourStroke as being superior to the competition also works as an argument for it being superior to the Mercury Verado, which I find rather bizarre as Mercury makes the Verado as well....


The argument for larger displacement in a simple outboard also flies in the face of the genesis of the supercharged and very complex Mercury Verado which only a few years ago was touted as "revolutionary" to outboard motors. By the reasoning presented in [a video promotion of the 150-HP FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO], Mercury is suggesting that the Verado is exactly what you do not want in an outboard, small displacement, heavy, complex with many moving parts.


On 10-09-2011, I said:

quote:
[The 150-HP FOURSTROKE NOT VERADO] will sell so well that it will end sales of the VERADO 150-HP and probably the OptiMax 150, too.

Well, it took almost five years, but my prediction came true. Both the 150-HP FOURSTROKE VERADO and the 150-HP OptiMax are gone. The 150-HP OptiMax is a victim of just a name change, as far as I can tell, as Mercury simply renamed almost all of the OptiMax models recently to "ProXS" models. They still make a ProXS 150, just not an OptiMax 150.

ktm3ten posted 02-18-2015 11:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for ktm3ten  Send Email to ktm3ten     
I'm not here all the time, but I'm pretty sure this cold snap has just affected hell. Jimh just seemed to indicate the 150HP FourStroke will (and by his most recent statement, has for 5 years) sell well. That's the most positive comment I've ever seen him write about anything Mercury.


I'm no big fan of mercs, I cussed mine often...but holy smokes...

In a forum where outboard manufacturer is more contentious than religious debates....this was huge...

jimh posted 02-19-2015 08:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
ktm3ten seems to have a very selective memory. I have written extremely positively about Mercury. I am a realist. I am not a Brunswick publicist disguised as a classic Boston Whaler boat owner. I prefer the approach that I described earlier as "a thoughtful examination of information."

If the VERADO were not much too heavy, completely out of all proportions in its size for my boat, sold only by a very limited number of specially qualified dealers, and available to be serviced by a similarly limited number, did not use a proprietary instrumentation system, and did not require specialized batteries and steering systems, I might have considered buying one to re-power my classic Boston Whaler boat. But, as you might see, like just about every other owner of a classic Boston Whaler boat that could use an outboard engine in the 200 to 300-HP range, I did not choose a VERADO for those reasons. (There have been, what, about two re-powers of classic Boston Whaler boats with a six-cylinder VERADO in the past 12-years.) Even though Mercury has priced it far below its true value in order to make it competitive, it is not a viable option for most Boston Whaler boats that have not been specifically designed for it. And, even on the newer Boston Whaler boats which have been set up for the VERADO, it is still gigantically out of proportion for what we used to think of as an outboard engine. These are realistic views. You should take note that even the completely-in-the-bag-for-Mercury fan boys, who like to pretend the VERADO is the greatest engine the world has ever seen, do not buy them and have them on the transom of their many classic Boston Whaler boats. I don't know why you find it strange that I don't go around telling people they ought to put a VERADO on their classic Whaler.

jimh posted 02-19-2015 08:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
As for the now-five-year-old "new" Mercury 150-HP FOURSTROKE, it does seem to be selling well on new boat transoms, which, as we know, is the primary market for Brunswick engines. We were told five years ago by [a well-connected and well-informed correspondent]:

quote:
Re-power sales are a tiny fraction of sales for the Mercury line up.

I think that was a very cogent observation, as five years later, I still have yet to see a single Mercury 150-HP FOURSTROKE on the transom of any re-powered boat. I do see them on a lot of transoms of new Brunswick boats and on other new boats.

As an aside, I was just down in Florida. I was snooping around the rack storage at a rather large marina on the AIWW, and I saw a great number of older Boston Whaler boats with newer engines. None of them had a Brunswick engine. They all had Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, or Evinrude re-power engines. [Our well-conected and well-informed correspondent] was exactly on the money when he described the market for Mercury engines as re-power engines as "a tiny fraction" of the Mercury sales.

jimh posted 02-22-2015 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The cold weather has not affected my rational thought or my humor. I read recently on THEHULLTRUTH a posting from some Mercury fan boy who said that Mercury's new engine dominated the Miami International Boat Show (MIBS) Then in the most recent issue of a trade magazine, a somewhat less biased writer wrote that the Evinrude 74-degree V6 E-TEC engine attracted the most attention at MIBS.

I think at a 400-HP level the VERADO is starting to justify its enormous size, but getting that much horsepower from a tiny 2.6-liter displacement block seems like a strain on the components. I don't think you will be getting a five-year or seven-year warranty with them.

Mambo Minnow posted 02-22-2015 01:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
I don't disagree with most of Jim's points.

Jeff's social media site has a very nice 1999 Outrage 21 from Craigslist with a re powered 250 HP Verado. Wish we could learn more from the owner on the repower

Mambo Minnow posted 02-22-2015 01:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
I take that back, it's here on Marketplace!
Backfire posted 02-25-2015 02:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for Backfire  Send Email to Backfire     
[Is the Mercury VERADO] 400 a [CARB rating] 2 star [outboard engine]? [What is the fuel burn rate at] WOT?
jimh posted 03-07-2015 08:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
As I recall, Mercury had to re-tune all their VERADO engines to become only Two-Star rated engines in order to improve their fuel economy from their initial versions. This change occurred when Mercury revised the VERADO into the model they called, at that time, the "Gen 2", but that designator has since disappeared.

As has often been noted and discussed, engines with only Two-Star rating are not compliant with the current EPA and CARB regulations, but they are allowed to be sold if they are from a corporation whose total outboard engine sales, when averaged together, can meet the fleet emission reductions required. (For some reason, whenever I mention the fact that Two-Star-rated engines are not compliant, this brings out the back-benchers who insist they could be sold on their own--but, of course, they can't.) Brunswick has gotten themselves into a strange position with the VERADO where they can't sell them at all unless they also sell a lot of other outboard engines with better emission ratings to pull up their corporate average. (There was also an interesting analysis of the VERADO Two-Star engines that showed, if the star-rating system were a decimal fraction system, the Two-Star-rated engines might be called something like a 2.8-star rated engine, or thereabouts, meaning that although they did not meet the standards needed for Three-Star rating, they were not very far off the mark.) Since all the other VERADO engines are "CARB star rating = 2" engines, it seems very unlikely the 400-HP VERADO is going to be different.

I have no idea what the fuel consumption will be at full throttle. Actually, I don't have any real information on this "new engine" because I have not come across any actual Mercury web site that has any information on it. I just browsed the Mercury-Marine-brand website and found no mention of the 400-HP VERADO. I assume it must be some special racing engine you can't really buy unless you qualify as a special customer with a real race boat.

Peter posted 03-07-2015 05:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The 400R Verado is on the Mercury racing site -- www.mercuryracing.com. All Verados are CARB 2-Star rated.
jimh posted 03-08-2015 11:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Peter--Thanks for the information about the Mercury racing website. There I found the VERADO 400R listed as a "CONSUMER" outboard engine, not a "RACE" outboard engine. I presume that means anyone can buy one. I found a press release that describes the engine as "the most powerful consumer outboard ever produced by Mercury." That seems to confirm it is not a race engine. Apparently it is being manufactured by the Mercury Racing division of Brunswick, not the usual Mercury Marine division.

I suspect that the association with racing will add prestige value to ownership of a VERADO 400R, even though Mercury Racing does consider it to be a race engine.

dgoodhue posted 03-08-2015 09:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
The Mercury Racing 400 Verado has less of warranty than the other Verados. (It also has a high rpm's range). It is more than it just being manufactured by Mercury Racing. The 1350 sterndrive is also listed for recreational use like the 400R.
jimh posted 03-08-2015 10:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I see that the VERADO 400R already has at least one fan that considers it is something better than just another consumer outboard engine. That is completely in line with what I said above. Buyers of the VERADO 400R will gain added prestige from the association with Mercury Racing.
Peter posted 03-09-2015 07:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
While the 400R might not be a racing outboard like the other outboard motors advertised on the Mercury Racing site I think any Mercury outboard that has less than a 3-year warranty ends up on the Mercury Racing site.

I wonder whether the motor would sell for as much if it had a normal 3-year warranty. With a regular warranty, it would seemingly not have that this-motor-is-so-high-strung-that-it-could-blow-up-at-any-minute edginess for the target consumers.

jimh posted 03-09-2015 08:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
To calculate the cost of the VERADO 400R on a basis of horsepower-per-dollar and then compare it to the other consumer VERADO models may be an interesting comparison. Based on the description of the added components used in the VERADO 400R, its cost on a basis of horsepower-per-dollar is probably going to be higher than other models. Can we have the MSRP of the various models?
bluewaterpirate posted 03-09-2015 10:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
The large center console boaters in Florida are hanging them regardless. There was 11 orders for them on new construction and existing boats at the Miami Boat Show and I know that's factual.
weekendwarrior posted 03-09-2015 11:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for weekendwarrior  Send Email to weekendwarrior     
I'm jumping in here after only reading a couple posts, but as a S FL native, when taking about high dollar boats down here "per dollar" are words that I don't think are ever spoken.
jimh posted 03-09-2015 02:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I am confused by the last two replies.

BLUEWATERPIRATE writes:

quote:
The large center console boaters in Florida are hanging them regardless.

I am sure "them" refers to VERADO 400R engines, but what is being done that is "regardless"? Without regard to cost?

WEEKENDWARRIOR writes:

quote:
as a S FL native, when taking about high dollar boats down here "per dollar" are words that I don't think are ever spoken.

You mean no one is allowed to care about costs?

I am interested to see what the cost of the VERADO 400R is in terms of horsepower-per-dollar so we can see how much is being paid as a premium for the extra 50-HP compared to the 350-HP engine.

I am interested in the marginal cost of that extra 50-HP. It does not matter to me if there isn't anyone in South Florida who is interested in this or not.

Usually, where there are several models based on the same basic engine, the cost per horsepower becomes cheaper as you go up in power. I have a feeling that is not going to be found in the VERADO 400R.

Peter posted 03-09-2015 02:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I found the following Verado I6 pricing on proboats.com:
Motor - Price - $ per HP Decal Number

200 - $14,529 - $73/HP
225 - $16,379 - $73/HP
250 - $16,999 - $68/HP
300 - $18,789 - $63/HP
350 - $20,199 - $58/HP
400R- $29,495 - $74/HP (about $79/HP if going by CARB declared output)

OMCguru posted 03-09-2015 05:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
Does the price for the Mercury Racing 400R include the premium for the high performance gearcase?
dgoodhue posted 03-09-2015 09:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
The 400R is pretty pricy compare to the rest of the Verado's.
dgoodhue posted 03-10-2015 05:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
I looked up the MSRP for the 400R. I found an article that states it is $31,530 to $36,120

The same article put the Verado 350 MSRP at $27,505 and Verado 300 at $24,295.

One interest thing I found on forum that a member mention that Mercury Racing motors are not nearly as discounted as Mercury Marine product, which falls in line with what was posted above.

jimh posted 03-10-2015 06:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I would like the URL of the website where the MSRP of outboard motors can be looked up.
Peter posted 03-10-2015 06:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The site www.seedealercost.com purports to list the MSRP. It does not have the MSRP for the 350 or 400R Verados.
jimh posted 03-10-2015 06:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Thank you for the information on the website with MSRP data for outboard engines. Do you think the data is accurate?
jimh posted 03-10-2015 06:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Using the price data posted by Peter (above), the incremental cost of 50-HP on the VERADO appears to be as follows:

To increase to 350-HP from 300-HP, the extra 50-HP costs $1,410, or $28/HP

To increase to 400-HP from 350-HP, the extra 50-HP costs $9,296, or $186/HP.

The added 50-HP at the VERADO 400R level is 6.6-times more expensive than the added 50-HP at the VERADO 350.

There must be a significant payback in added prestige when cruising the canals around Miami with the 400R on the transom to justify that kind of premium.

jimh posted 03-10-2015 06:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Perhaps DGOODHUE can repeat the comparison with his price information.
Jefecinco posted 03-10-2015 08:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Perhaps the lower unit on the Verado 400R is different from that of the Verado 350 causing Mercury to increase the price accordingly.

Butch

jimh posted 03-10-2015 02:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
There are apparently many physical differences between a VERADO 400R and the VERADO 350. As for the horsepower difference, there is a suggestion (above from Peter via the data for the emissions) that the horsepower difference might not be 50-HP, and could be more like 26-HP, that is, the VERADO 400R is rated in the emission testing as producing 376-HP. If that is so, then that extra 26-HP was really expensive.
dgoodhue posted 03-10-2015 05:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
This where I found the pricing. I did the math to figure out the Verado 300. Fortunately it matches the website Peter linked

http:/ / features. boats. com/ boat-content/ 2015/ 02/ mercury-marine-re veals-verado-350-mercury-racing-verado-400r-at-miami-boat-show/

Using peter link and the lowest cost models

$20,935 Verado 225 $93/hp
$21,935 Verado 250 $88/hp
$24,295 Verado 300 $81/hp
$27,505 Verado 350 $79/hp
$31,530 Verado 400R $79/hp

dgoodhue posted 03-10-2015 05:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
I don't know how Mercury did the emission testing, but they may have run the engine on 89 octane, which they claim reduces the power. 89 might be the worst cause loading. This is just a potential theory.
Peter posted 03-12-2015 06:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The CARB rated power on all the other I6 Verado models 300 HP and below are within about 5 HP of the decal, i.e., per the Mercury certification a Verado 300 has a rated power of 296. But the 350 and 400R models have a much greater gap between the decal and the CARB rated power. I presume that they are all tested the same way.

I believe that the Verado 300 requires 92 octane for "premium" performance. The 350 requires 91 octane for "premium" performance.

The 400R may have some very expensive premium decals.

Teak Oil posted 03-12-2015 06:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Dgoodhue's pricing data looks more accurate. There is no way Mercury is selling 350 Verados for the same price I bought my 300 E-tec for last year.

You may be getting more than a gearcase with the 400. Things like forged internal components and balanced and blueprinted rotating assemblies like are on other Mercury Racing motors might be included as well.

jimh posted 03-13-2015 12:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It is going to be hard to determine a MSRP when the cited article says the MSRP varies over a range of $5,000 depending on unspecified changes in configuration. If you pick the price at the low end of the range you'll get one figure for the $/HP, and, clearly, if you pick the price at the other end of the range you'll get quite a different outcome.

But even at the lower price--more than $31,000--this VERADO 400R is one darn expensive engine.

OMCguru posted 03-13-2015 08:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
MSRP is not a good measure since two different division of a company are selling these products and they are hard to compare against each other. It is also hard to compare against other brands since each company/division has different pricing schedules, rebates, discounts and margins.

Actually street prices would be a great comparison and we would be able to see how they stack up again other brands apples to apples.

Suggested retail price does not hold a lot of value in the real world.

dgoodhue posted 03-13-2015 09:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
All of the Verado have different costs between shaft length and the optional white colors. (Side note - I really like the way the White Verado look on the new Whalers when I was at the boat show.) [Side note--don't use square brackets to set off parenthetical phrases; square brackets are reserved for the editor's use--jimh] The 400r also has an optional lower unit for speeds above 85mph.

For all the other models pricing I chose the L black model Verado, which he lowest priced examples. If you want sticker shock, Google the price of the Mercury Racing 1350 and they are almost always sold in pairs.

dgoodhue posted 03-13-2015 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
The reason I used MSRP over street pricing is because the 400r is so new their isn't a lot of pricing info. Once I looked a little further, it seem unfair to compare $/hp of the engines with $5-7k discounts off MSRP from one source and to compare it with a new engine that had limited pricing info. (It happened to be $2k).

I don't think that many if any Whalers are going to have this 400 hp engine. I that the news that will affect new Boston Whaler engine choices is the introduction of the Verado 350 which uses some of the tech (water cooler intercooler) from the 400r. The new 350 Verado is not the same engine as last year Mercury Racing 350SCi. The top operating range of the new 350 is 6400 like the rest of the 2.6L Verado line as oppose to the 350SCi which had a 6800 operating range.

jimh posted 03-13-2015 10:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
OMCGURU writes:

quote:
MSRP is not a good measure since two different division of a company are selling these products and they are hard to compare against each other. It is also hard to compare against other brands since each company [or] division has different pricing schedules, rebates, discounts and margins.

Can you explain how we are supposed to adjust the price of something based on:

--the company, e.g. Mercury versus Yamaha

--the division of the company, e.g. consumer versus racing

--the brand, e.g. Verado versus Verado with a capital R

Maybe we should adjust the horsepower, too.

jimh posted 03-13-2015 10:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
DGOODHUE--The information you gave about the new features of the VERADO 350 was very interesting. It sounds like the VERADO 350 has most of the best parts of the VERADO 400R. Is that right?
OMCguru posted 03-13-2015 11:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
Street price or actual selling price is the only real means of comparing products. Everything else is just speculation.

I just called a very large premier dealership and was quoted the following prices to put this discussion to rest.

350hp Verado 25inch shaft in Black with 5.44 HD gearcase $20,500
400R racing Verado 25 inch shaft in black with same gearcase $26,100


That is a quote from the owner of the dealership that is good til April 1st. Apple to apples.

jimh posted 03-14-2015 07:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I am afraid that OMCguru cannot put the discussion to rest by simply declaring it so.

Let's look at the price quotation he has provided.

The 350-HP Verado costs $20,500. That's $85.6/HP.

To add 50-HP more by upgrading to a 400R will cost an additional $5,600. That's $112/HP.

This analysis is the same as the prior ones, and it also confirms my initial comment: you will be paying a significant premium for those extra 50-HP. You have to pay 1.3-times more for the extra 50-HP than for the first 350-HP.

This is in conflict with the usual pricing schedule in which the horsepower cost becomes cheaper as your increase in power. We saw that demonstrated in the earlier data. Usually the least expensive model in terms of cost of dollars-per-horsepower is the highest power model in the series. In the case of the VERADO 400R this is not true. It is the most expensive model in cost of dollars-per-horsepower. Is there any argument about that?

Peter posted 03-14-2015 11:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The premium for the 400R is understandably driven by supply and demand. There currently are no other outboard manufacturers that offer an outboard motor with "400" decals on the cowl and there is demand for an outboard motor "400" decals on the cowl. So until another outboard manufacturer offers an outboard with "400" decals, the 400R need not follow usual pricing schedule.
jimh posted 03-14-2015 12:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Let me offer this corollary observation: if, as DGOODHUE has suggested, the internals of the 350-HP and 400-HP are similar, then the cost of manufacturing them must be also similar. The premium price of the VERADO 400R will mean much better margins on this engine and more profit for Mercury.
Peter posted 03-14-2015 02:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I'll bet that there is a high likelihood that the 350 and 400R are the same mechanically. I'll also bet the only difference is the engine management programming allowing the 400R to turn up to 7000 RPM whereas the 350 is limited to 6400 RPM. As I have previously posted, I bet there is no difference in performance between the 350 and 400R from 0 to 6400 RPM given that the peak torque values (amount and RPM) for the motors as reported to CARB are the same. Thus it would seem that the $5600 provides a "key" to unlock the virtual rev limiting governor preventing the 350 from using the 600 RPM between 6401 and 7000 RPM. That's $9.33 per RPM above 6400!
bluewaterpirate posted 03-16-2015 09:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for bluewaterpirate  Send Email to bluewaterpirate     
Information from boaters currently running the demo boat with Mercury 350-HP show them to be more fuel efficient than the current 300 Verado. The water cooled supercharger and combined cooler under-cowling temperatures have really helped the new 350-HP and 400-HP engines achieve very impressive efficiency. The engines now don't have to work as hard to overcome the hotter intake temperatures of the previous generation Verado. In some instances, the intake temps of the 350-HP and 400-HP can be up to 100-F-degree cooler.

Tom

Peter posted 03-16-2015 04:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I wonder how the efficiency would be effected if they tuned the Verado to meet CARB Three-Star emissions regulations. Maybe the water-cooled supercharger will ultimately get them to Three-Star for the under 350 HP models.
OMCguru posted 03-16-2015 08:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
Efficiency is not tied to emission as crazy as that sounds. The first generation Verado was Three-Star and it went down with the second generation even though the fuel efficiency increased. Reducing emissions can sometimes require burning more fuel.
Peter posted 03-17-2015 07:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Help me understand that "efficiency is not tied to emission as crazy as that sounds".

I think we were led to believe long ago that the Verado change from 3-Star compliance (a more restrictive emissions regulation) to 2-Star compliance (a less restrictive emissions regulation) was due to the desire to improve fuel economy of the Verado and not for some other reason. So with the apparent efficiency gains that they've made with the 350 and 400R coming from the water cooled supercharger, maybe they can use that construct in their lower HP lines, give up some of the efficiency gains for better emissions compliance as it seems to have been a trade off in the past?

jimh posted 03-17-2015 07:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It has been discussed previously that the mixture of fuel and air that produces the least exhaust emission of regulated gases is not always the same mixture that produces the best fuel economy. This was clearly seen in the case of the VERADO when it was re-tuned in the phase called "Gen-2" to have better fuel efficiency. The cost of that improved fuel efficiency was an increase in regulated emissions, resulting in a down grade to Two-Star rating from Three-Star.

On the other hand, improved fuel efficiency as seen in the E-TEC 74-degree engine has resulted in a decrease in regulated emission. The new E-TEC models produce more horsepower from the fuel and fewer emissions than previous models. This is the opposite of the VERADO experience. Of course, the E-TEC is operating with a lot more displacement per horsepower. The VERADO trend may be an outcome of trying to get 400-HP from 2.6-liter displacement.

jharrell posted 03-17-2015 06:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
On the other hand, improved fuel efficiency as seen in the E-TEC 74-degree engine has resulted in a decrease in regulated emission. The new E-TEC models produce more horsepower from the fuel and fewer emissions than previous models. This is the opposite of the VERADO experience.

There are primarily two types of emissions the EPA is concerned with at this time, hydrocarbon (HC) and nitrogen oxide NOx.

HC emissions being made of hydrogen and carbon tends to come from the fuel and oil since they are made with hydrocarbons. Specifically un-burned fuel and oil.

NOx being made of nitrogen and oxygen comes from air, which is made mostly of the two. Specifically when you put air under enough heat and pressure it will form into NOx.

So an engine like a Gen 1 E-TEC 300 that emits 4 times the HC of a 250 Gen 1 E-TEC with roughly the same NOx emissions is obviously running more rich and consequently emitting more HC in the exhaust.

On the other hand a Gen2 Verado 300 which emits 1.25 more NOx than a Gen 1 Verado 250 while emitting half the HC is obviously running leaner for efficiency.

Nearly gone are the days when better efficiency means less emissions. Modern efficient engines run so lean they are NOx factories, diesels being the extreme case requiring urea injection to actively convert NOx back into it's base form.

The new water cooling for the Verado should lower combustion temps which will reduce NOx emissions, but it may not be enough to bring back into 3 star range, although they are very close already.


jimh posted 03-19-2015 03:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
ASIDE: I always find jharrell's comments informative, but I don't think there is much yield in looking into the E-TEC 300-HP engine, as it is the only E-TEC in the whole line that isn't a Three-Star. (If I overlooked some other model, I am sure I will be quickly corrected.)

I am more interested in understanding how the new 74-degree E-TEC engines have been able to simultaneously improve power output, improve fuel economy, and also reduce emissions. That was the point of my earlier comment on the E-TEC. It appears that Evinrude has found a way to get all three parameters moving in the same desired direction. Perhaps their careful research into behavior in the combustion chamber using computational fluid dynamics modeling gave them some help. Well, perhaps we should leave the E-TEC out of the discussion. We are talking about the new Mercury engine.

jimh posted 04-05-2015 05:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I just noticed (from a comment reviewing the boat show season and new outboard engines introduced), that the weight of the Mercury VERADO has increased in these 350-HP and 400-HP versions. The original VERADO was already a heavyweight outboard engine. How much increase in weight was made with these new models?
dgoodhue posted 04-05-2015 09:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for dgoodhue  Send Email to dgoodhue     
The spec says 21-lbs heavier. The 350/400 Verado is 100-lbs lighter than its Yamaha 350 competitor. The 225 Verado is a good 125-lbs heavier than the 225 ETEC. Mercury is using one motor with minor differences accross the 225 to 400-HP range (and at one time they made a 200-HP). Their competitors uses three different motor design to span that power range. It really should [not?] be surprising that at the low end the engine is the heaviest but at the high end it's the lightest.
OMCguru posted 04-06-2015 10:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
Mercury now has the 200 Verado Pro based on the same block as well. The inline 6 cylinder 2.7 liter block is used from 200hp-400hp now.

There is something to be said for standardization. The fact that so many parts are interchangeable from 2005 to present is a big plus. Combined with so many knowledgeable techs. Knowledge transfer does take years and many newer products like the Evinrude G2 will have growing pains because of this.

I also propose that outboard engine weight is less of a factor today with current boat design than ever before. Sure repowers still are a concern but how many of these expensive new engines (of all brands) are being used to repower boats older than 2000? I would theorize less then 1%? Boats built within the last 10-12 years have been built with the idea of 600lb+ 200hp engine. The Yamaha 3.6 liter V6 F200/F225 have been over 600lbs for years and besides for the recent corrosion issues have been considered very successful as far as market penetration.

In early 1980s people were balking at the idea of 555lbs engines when the 3.6 liter V8 from OMC and 3.4 liter V6 from Mercury were just getting going.

Peter posted 04-06-2015 11:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I think outboard weight still matters. If you look at most of the 4-stroke makers, they are doing everything they can to reduce weight. For example, Yamaha went to the use of a plasma fused sleeveless cylinder design to keep the weight down and the performance up. Mercury went to the use of a very simple single over head cam, 8 valve four stroke construct for its 75 through 150 FourStroke models to save weight and cost.
jimh posted 04-07-2015 08:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
OMCGURU says:

quote:
The fact that so many parts are interchangeable from 2005 to present is a big plus.

For whom it this a big plus? How does the consumer benefit?

OMCguru posted 04-07-2015 09:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
The availability of parts and knowledge to work on them. That is a huge benefit to the consumer because it allows most dealerships to have parts in stock, allows a tech to be very well versed and specialize in a large product line. The availability of used parts is also plentiful. I think most will see the standardization and interchangeability of the parts and platforms as being huge.

Mercury did this with their 2.0/2.4/2.5 liter V6 platform and also with their 3.0 liter V6 platform. The vast majority of major parts will work on each platform regardless of whether it is DFI, EFI or carb.

OMC also did this with the 2.0 liter V4, 3.0 liter V4 and 4.0 liter V8. If you know to work on one, you can work on them all.


Recently I have heard that you can no longer buy injectors for a Ficht older than 2001. There were several years where the design and parts changed from model year to model year causing a lack of interchangeable one off parts. Many dealerships will not work on older engines because of this.

jimh posted 04-08-2015 07:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I don't really care if I can buy an OEM injector for a 15-year-old OMC outboard. OMC went out of business. That does not affect my opinion of the new Mercury engine.

I don't think you can hold up Mercury as any sort of an example of having used standardized parts across their product line of outboard engines. They have more different type of outboard engines than anyone.

I don't see the notion that you can get parts for a VERADO as a big consumer benefit. Who works on their own VERADO? Guys with two or three or four 350-HP or 400-HP VERADO engines are not going to be worried about availability of parts so they can make some repairs themselves. I don't think there is anything special about the VERADO that makes the availability of its parts better or worse than any other engine.

Also, Mercury doesn't use standard parts across the VERADO. They have at least three or four generations of VERADO now. The first generation that came out in c.2003, the next generation, which they called, for a short time, GEN2, with substantial changes in the crankcase area, then the VERADO Pro, maybe nothing different than a decal, and now these new "race" engines sold to consumers. Do you think they really use the same pistons, connecting rods, and other components in the 400-HP engine that they do in the 75-HP model? I doubt it. This sidebar of "standard parts" is not of any significance, even if it were true, and I don't think it is. Let's drop it and talk about the new engine, not about some debatable notion of how some not particularly plausible argument might help some small segment of consumers.

jimh posted 04-08-2015 08:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
DGOODHUE--Thanks for replying with the information that the weight increase on the new Mercury engine was 21-lbs. That detracts from my earlier comments that the new Mercury engine would have an increase in power to weight. I guess the power increased, but so did the weight. I suppose that as you approach 800-lbs for an outboard engine, the increment of 21-lbs becomes less important.
jimh posted 04-08-2015 08:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I am having a hard time seeing any big benefit to having a 200-HP engine and a 400-HP engine that have the same weight. Is that supposed to be a benefit? Why wouldn't it be better to have a 200-HP engine that weighed a lot less than a 400-HP engine? I think you guys are grasping at straws with this notion that because the six-cylinder VERADO engines are gigantic, enormous, and heavy, that becomes a benefit because they all are gigantic, enormous, and heavy? I am not buying that.
Robert V posted 04-08-2015 08:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for Robert V  Send Email to Robert V     
Jim,

Not to take away from your point regarding the weight of the Mercury Verado motors but, the 6 cylinder motors start at 225 HP. The 200 HP Verado is part of the four cylinder family of Verado motors and has a lower weight. The four cylinder Verado motors range in power from 175 HP to 200 HP and the six cylinder family range is from 225 HP to 400 HP.

Robert

jimh posted 04-08-2015 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
ROBERT--not to be ungrateful for your explanation, but I was aware of that.

The reference to the 75-HP FOURSTROKE engine was made because the 75-HP FOURSTROKE four-cylinder engine is based on the FOURSTROKE VERADO engine line. It uses the FOURSTROKE VERADO engine block, and other components of the FOURSTROKE VERADO, just without the supercharger. But I rather doubt that the strength of critical components in the 75-HP FOURSTROKE, such as the pistons, the connecting rods, and the crankshaft are identical to the ones used in the 400-HP VERADO.

This whole line of discussion regarding there being some alleged commonality of components in the VERADO that is supposed to be a big, important, significant benefit to the consumer is quite meaningless. When was the last time you ever heard a boater say,

"The reason I bough this particular engine was because the Krellman Bar in this engine is the same Krellman Bar that is used in another model."

And, as I said, there is, in my opinion and supported by statements from Mercruy, a clear notion they DO NOT USE the same parts across all models. They put in stronger parts in the engines with higher horsepower. It only makes sense. Why would Mercury use some very expensive, forged, carefully machineed, close-tolerance, hand chosen parts from a 400-HP racing engine in a 75-HP fishing motor, just because the basic cylinder dimensions are the same? They wouldn't and they don't. It is a waste of money. And, again, even if they did, how would this make the 400-HP racing engine better? It wouldn't. If anything it would make it worse. You could say, "heck, that racing engine uses pistons from a 75-HP fishing engine." Sorry, but I don't see any benefit from making an argument that there is some mystical commonality of parts in a VERADO.

Is this new line of rationalization of standard parts coming from some new Mercury Kool-Aid that has been created for the fan-boys?

The real benefit of using common parts across a line of products accrues to the manufacturer. Trying to rationalize this as some consumer benefit is swimming in murky waters.

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