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Author Topic:   Examples - Adding Cleats to Classic 15

Buckda posted 03-13-2004 04:43 PM ET (US)
Has anyone found an effective way to add cleats to your Classic 15' Whaler? I'm looking for photos, sizing and location of where you might have placed these cleats on the gunwales.
I'd like not to marr the look of the boat much, but also want to have a more effective means to tie the boat at docks, etc.
Thanks.
Dave
jimh posted 03-13-2004 08:14 PM ET (US)
Dave--I have added stern cleats to my SPORT 15. I mounted them on the side of the gunwales ( the inwales?). I don't think they are mounted to any reinforcement or embedded wood, so I just use them for tying to a dock for a short stay. I carefully attached them with self-tapping screws bedded with 3M5200. I drilled the holes so as to maximize the purchase the screws obtained in the laminate and foam. So far they are solid as a rock, but I would not try to put a huge strain on them.
By mounting them on the inwale (like they are mounted on the Outrage series with hawsepipes in the deck) I kept the top of the gunwales clear of obstructions.
If I need a really strong cleat for a tie-up, I would use the transom eyes. The stern cleats I mounted are just handy to make fast a quick mooring line at a dock. Yes, the mooring line does rub on the gunwale, but it is not a problem because I don't use these cleats for long-term mooring. For something like that, say where the boat was going to be tied up for a month, I'd naturally use the transom eyes for the lines.
Buckda posted 03-14-2004 02:09 PM ET (US)
Thanks Jim -
Would you say that the cleat is secure enough for overnight mooring at a marina (the type that would be appropriate for, say, a Georgian Bay Rendezvous)?
Thanks
Dave
jimh posted 03-14-2004 04:31 PM ET (US)
Dave--Yes, to stay at a dock they are fine; to lift the boat--no.
If you check the wood locating diagram, you will see that on hulls after Stencil Number 5B1255 there was embedded wood included in the stern.
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/drawings.html
My hull is from 1976 (model-year-one) and has no wood there. If your hull is like that, I would recommend making a stronger point of attachment as follows.
Position the cleats in the desired location.
(By the way, I think you want the cleats at an angle from vertical, about 30-degrees from vertical, a la the cleats in an Outrage.)
Mark the mounting hole locations. Drill small pilot holes about 1/8-inch. Be sure not to drill through the hull sides and into the exterior! Use a wrap of white tape on the drill bit to mark the depth.
Make your own L-shaped auger bit (from a small allen wrench). Insert in drill chuck. Guide bit into hole and auger out a pocket behind the laminate in the foam of the interior of the hull. This might be about an inch in diameter.
Use a vacuum cleaner to extract the foam dust from the cavity.
Drill a very small hole in the laminate at the uppermost part of the cavity using a small wire-sized drill. Make the hole just large enough to admit a needle from a syringe (which you will use to inject epoxy).
Cover the original mounting hole on cavity centerline with tape.
Mix up some WEST System Epoxy with high-density filler to a thin ketchup consistency. Or--leave the epoxy mix at full strength, at your option. Draw epoxy mix into syringe, then inject it into the cavity through the small access hole at top. Fill the cavity with epoxy. Withdraw syringe and seal small hole with tape, too. Allow to cure to full hardness and strength.
Watch out when filling voids with pure epoxy in large volumes. The reaction is exothermic and the reaction rate increases with temperture. If you reach a critical volume it can really start to take off and will generate significant heat which will cause the foam to melt! This is a real concern, so even in small voids you may want to fill in two doses.
Alternative technique for filling: Just drill the mounting hole and omit the fill hole. Cover with tape. Puncture tape with needle of syringe and fill entire cavity. Withdraw syringe quickly and cover hole with more tape. (I like the two hole method because you are going to be certain to fill the lower 7/8ths of the cavity
When fully cured drill and tap a machine screw into the epoxy pad under the laminate. This should produce a strong mount point, particularly if you have four screws per cleat.
I have not tried this myself. Your mileage may vary. Offer is not good in Canada.
Also, an alternative method is to insert the fastener into the hole and pour the epoxy around it. I have not tried that, but I would suggest that the fastener be clean and have perhaps a bit of wax on it.
Whenever drilling through the gel coat and using a screw fastener, always relieve the hole in the gel coat layer (the top 20 mils or so) of the laminate to be larger in diameter than the screw. If you do not do this you will crack the gel coat and a radial crack will grow from the hole. You want the fastener to bit into the laminate, not very much at all into the gel coat.
I would have done all this on my boat except I was a babe in the woods as far as Boston Whalers at the time I did the addition. If the cleats ever loosen up I would re-install them as I outlined above.
Buckda posted 03-14-2004 08:50 PM ET (US)
Jim-
Thanks for the excellent and informative response. I will give this a shot later in the spring when the weather breaks and holds for cleats in the stern. Sounds like a good father-son activity that I hope to rope my dad into.

Dave

where2 posted 03-16-2004 12:49 PM ET (US)
While drooling over the new Whalers at the Miami show, I noticed that the 2004 150 Sport has a cleat that doubles as a lifting eye attached where I simply have lifting eyes on my 1985 15' Sport. I'm sure Whaler would be happy to sell a set of the cleats by themselves. One of the differences is that the outside of the transom mount is actually a U bolt so there are two pegs to mount the cleat to on the inside of the transom. Since older 15's only had 1 threaded piece coming through, it would necessitate drilling a second hole in the transom, or some creativity to keep the cleat from spinning around one mounting bolt. I suspect a 1" long #14 pan head SS screw would suffice if you hit the wood backing block in the transom with it...
There were some points I didn't like on the 150 Sport, but the cleats on the inside of the transom was one of those I REALLY liked!
russellbailey posted 03-16-2004 12:58 PM ET (US)
When Dad bought our 1980 Striper 15 new, he wanted cleats on it, which the dealer added. They are on top of the gunwale, bow and stern. The outer bolts are through bolted to a piece of aluminum under the outer gunwale "lip" - sturdy. I have no idea what if anything the inner bolts attach to, but they have not pulled out. We have not tried lifting with it, just mooring.
The cleats are close enough to the outside that the top edge of the rubrail had to be trimmed.
They have worked well.
cape_rover posted 03-16-2004 04:50 PM ET (US)
Check out the cleats on the alert in this link:
http://users.skynet.be/extreme-vissers/SideBySide.htm
Personally I would not add any cleats, they would just be in the way - especially fishing. For docking, I spliced a line onto the bow lifting ring (Making it short enough so that it does not get into the prop if the end goes overboard) and you can splice lines to the stern eyes if desired. Add a couple of fenders and your turn key.

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Author	Topic: Examples - Adding Cleats to Classic 15
Buckda	posted 03-13-2004 04:43 PM ET (US) Has anyone found an effective way to add cleats to your Classic 15' Whaler? I'm looking for photos, sizing and location of where you might have placed these cleats on the gunwales. I'd like not to marr the look of the boat much, but also want to have a more effective means to tie the boat at docks, etc. Thanks. Dave
jimh	posted 03-13-2004 08:14 PM ET (US) Dave--I have added stern cleats to my SPORT 15. I mounted them on the side of the gunwales ( the inwales?). I don't think they are mounted to any reinforcement or embedded wood, so I just use them for tying to a dock for a short stay. I carefully attached them with self-tapping screws bedded with 3M5200. I drilled the holes so as to maximize the purchase the screws obtained in the laminate and foam. So far they are solid as a rock, but I would not try to put a huge strain on them. By mounting them on the inwale (like they are mounted on the Outrage series with hawsepipes in the deck) I kept the top of the gunwales clear of obstructions. If I need a really strong cleat for a tie-up, I would use the transom eyes. The stern cleats I mounted are just handy to make fast a quick mooring line at a dock. Yes, the mooring line does rub on the gunwale, but it is not a problem because I don't use these cleats for long-term mooring. For something like that, say where the boat was going to be tied up for a month, I'd naturally use the transom eyes for the lines.
Buckda	posted 03-14-2004 02:09 PM ET (US) Thanks Jim - Would you say that the cleat is secure enough for overnight mooring at a marina (the type that would be appropriate for, say, a Georgian Bay Rendezvous)? Thanks Dave
jimh	posted 03-14-2004 04:31 PM ET (US) Dave--Yes, to stay at a dock they are fine; to lift the boat--no. If you check the wood locating diagram, you will see that on hulls after Stencil Number 5B1255 there was embedded wood included in the stern. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/drawings.html My hull is from 1976 (model-year-one) and has no wood there. If your hull is like that, I would recommend making a stronger point of attachment as follows. Position the cleats in the desired location. (By the way, I think you want the cleats at an angle from vertical, about 30-degrees from vertical, a la the cleats in an Outrage.) Mark the mounting hole locations. Drill small pilot holes about 1/8-inch. Be sure not to drill through the hull sides and into the exterior! Use a wrap of white tape on the drill bit to mark the depth. Make your own L-shaped auger bit (from a small allen wrench). Insert in drill chuck. Guide bit into hole and auger out a pocket behind the laminate in the foam of the interior of the hull. This might be about an inch in diameter. Use a vacuum cleaner to extract the foam dust from the cavity. Drill a very small hole in the laminate at the uppermost part of the cavity using a small wire-sized drill. Make the hole just large enough to admit a needle from a syringe (which you will use to inject epoxy). Cover the original mounting hole on cavity centerline with tape. Mix up some WEST System Epoxy with high-density filler to a thin ketchup consistency. Or--leave the epoxy mix at full strength, at your option. Draw epoxy mix into syringe, then inject it into the cavity through the small access hole at top. Fill the cavity with epoxy. Withdraw syringe and seal small hole with tape, too. Allow to cure to full hardness and strength. Watch out when filling voids with pure epoxy in large volumes. The reaction is exothermic and the reaction rate increases with temperture. If you reach a critical volume it can really start to take off and will generate significant heat which will cause the foam to melt! This is a real concern, so even in small voids you may want to fill in two doses. Alternative technique for filling: Just drill the mounting hole and omit the fill hole. Cover with tape. Puncture tape with needle of syringe and fill entire cavity. Withdraw syringe quickly and cover hole with more tape. (I like the two hole method because you are going to be certain to fill the lower 7/8ths of the cavity When fully cured drill and tap a machine screw into the epoxy pad under the laminate. This should produce a strong mount point, particularly if you have four screws per cleat. I have not tried this myself. Your mileage may vary. Offer is not good in Canada. Also, an alternative method is to insert the fastener into the hole and pour the epoxy around it. I have not tried that, but I would suggest that the fastener be clean and have perhaps a bit of wax on it. Whenever drilling through the gel coat and using a screw fastener, always relieve the hole in the gel coat layer (the top 20 mils or so) of the laminate to be larger in diameter than the screw. If you do not do this you will crack the gel coat and a radial crack will grow from the hole. You want the fastener to bit into the laminate, not very much at all into the gel coat. I would have done all this on my boat except I was a babe in the woods as far as Boston Whalers at the time I did the addition. If the cleats ever loosen up I would re-install them as I outlined above.
Buckda	posted 03-14-2004 08:50 PM ET (US) Jim- Thanks for the excellent and informative response. I will give this a shot later in the spring when the weather breaks and holds for cleats in the stern. Sounds like a good father-son activity that I hope to rope my dad into. Dave
where2	posted 03-16-2004 12:49 PM ET (US) While drooling over the new Whalers at the Miami show, I noticed that the 2004 150 Sport has a cleat that doubles as a lifting eye attached where I simply have lifting eyes on my 1985 15' Sport. I'm sure Whaler would be happy to sell a set of the cleats by themselves. One of the differences is that the outside of the transom mount is actually a U bolt so there are two pegs to mount the cleat to on the inside of the transom. Since older 15's only had 1 threaded piece coming through, it would necessitate drilling a second hole in the transom, or some creativity to keep the cleat from spinning around one mounting bolt. I suspect a 1" long #14 pan head SS screw would suffice if you hit the wood backing block in the transom with it... There were some points I didn't like on the 150 Sport, but the cleats on the inside of the transom was one of those I REALLY liked!
russellbailey	posted 03-16-2004 12:58 PM ET (US) When Dad bought our 1980 Striper 15 new, he wanted cleats on it, which the dealer added. They are on top of the gunwale, bow and stern. The outer bolts are through bolted to a piece of aluminum under the outer gunwale "lip" - sturdy. I have no idea what if anything the inner bolts attach to, but they have not pulled out. We have not tried lifting with it, just mooring. The cleats are close enough to the outside that the top edge of the rubrail had to be trimmed. They have worked well.
cape_rover	posted 03-16-2004 04:50 PM ET (US) Check out the cleats on the alert in this link: http://users.skynet.be/extreme-vissers/SideBySide.htm Personally I would not add any cleats, they would just be in the way - especially fishing. For docking, I spliced a line onto the bow lifting ring (Making it short enough so that it does not get into the prop if the end goes overboard) and you can splice lines to the stern eyes if desired. Add a couple of fenders and your turn key.