A rap on replacement bow chock/light assembly from e-bay

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Author Topic:   A rap on replacement bow chock/light assembly from e-bay

ratherwhalering posted 04-02-2005 11:49 AM ET (US)
I recently purchased a bow light fixture from a vendor on e-bay.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/bow-light2.jpg
It appeared to be an exact replica of the bow light apparatus for a 1987 17-Montauk.
http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=279
However when I received it, there were some differences. First and foremost, the original was chrome plated bronze. The replacement appears to be chrome plated steel, of some sort. The assembly is composed of five distinct pieces.
http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=278

1. Base plate. The base on my original assembly sits flat on the fiberglass gunnel, and has a molded lip to accommodate the rub rail. There are two holes that allow two bolts to pass through the plate, from under the gunnel. The replacement is a flat plate, that does not have a molded lip for the rub rail. The holes for the bolts is an exact match, but the replacement did not sit flat on the gunnel because the rub rail caused a gap underneath the plate. This could be solved by adding a thin, 1/8” piece of starboard butted up to rub rail, or simply filling the void with caulk.
2. Outer line chocks. Two, hourglass shaped, threaded posts act as guides for docking/anchoring lines, keeping the line on the base plate. They also provide the means for securing the assembly to the gunnel. The bolts mentioned above pass from under the gunnel, through the base plate, and thread into the guides. The guides have square bases that seat into square holes in the base plate. This allowed the bolts to be tightened without the guides spinning. The original guides are threaded for their entire length. The replacements have 6-8 threads, then a void for the remainder of the length. The replacements are also slightly thinner and have sharper edges. Side by side, only a discerning eye would notice a difference.
3. Center line chock. http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=275 A single, round, guide sits dead center of the base plate, elevating the light fixture and allowing a line to pass on either side. It is attached to the base plate with 3 screws. The original and replacement appear to be identical, however the mounting holes had a slight variation such that my replacement could not be mounted on my original base, and vice-versa.
4. Light fixture. The original Perkos light fixture was a plastic base, with a “C” crimp to mount the light bulb. The base has small nuts whereby the electrical leads could be removed/replaced. The replacement is generic socket type of mount, where the leads are soldered. It is a simple plastic base and sleeve, with a spring and base type of fixture, very similar to the stern light arrangement. The sleeve recedes into the center line chock, but is held only by friction, and can be pushed through if one exerts too much force trying to insert the light bulb into the sleeve. My replacement was a short waiting to happen, because the electrical leads were stripped a good 1/2” after the soldered connections.
5. Lens. The original, two part lens was set inside the light fixture cap, creating a seal with the light fixture base, cap, and center chock. The replacement is a solid dome, that seats in much the same way. The dome itself is smaller than the original, and looks slightly smaller than the cap when installed. Where the original looks like one lens/cap unit, the replacement looks like a bicolor lens with a protective cap.
6. Cap. The cap is a metal dome that surrounds the lens, with appropriate gaps for the light. This part is secured to the center chock with two exterior screws. The original and replacement caps appear identical, however I did not try to mount my original lens and fixture inside the replacement cap.
I ended up returning my replacement, and having my original assembly re-chromed for $150.00. I then swapped lenses with my friend Kermit, while he wasn’t looking (just kidding Kermit.) Seriously, I bought the replacement because I didn’t want to deal with re-chroming, rebuilding, and cleaning the original...but after receiving it I would have had to do some modifications, as recommended by the manufacturer, so I just bit the bullet and decided to re-chrome. It was returned without any problems, and my money was refunded immediately.
A very big thanks to Whaler Central for the photos of the original parts!
anthonylisske posted 04-02-2005 01:41 PM ET (US)
Thank you.
I decided against the remake for the simple reason that it was not chrome over bronze.
I appreciate you putting the mystery to rest as well as confirming my decision.
Your post validates the value of this site.
LHG posted 04-02-2005 02:50 PM ET (US)
Could you tell me the correct lamp (light bulb) that is used in this fixture, voltage, model # etc? thanks
Joe Kriz posted 04-02-2005 02:56 PM ET (US)
Good question LHG,
I have had that bulb out several times in the past but never thought to see what model it was as mine never burned out on my Montauk.
This item would be great info to have in the OEM section.
Freeport Alan posted 04-02-2005 04:35 PM ET (US)
The phrase that comes to mind is
" cheap knock offs "
Good post & info
frostbite posted 04-02-2005 04:57 PM ET (US)
The bulb for the bow light is 12 volt, 10 watt, Perko catalog #71-DP-CLR.
Joe,
If you want an image of the bulb for your archives, let me know and I will email you a photo.
LHG posted 04-02-2005 05:19 PM ET (US)
Thanks, frostbite, but that is not the lamp (bulb) for the completely original unit that came on my 1971 Outrage. The one you have indicated is a festoon base lamp, and the one for my lamp socket is a "mini-bay" (Mini-Bayonet base) style.
Anybody else know? I'm asking about the Whaler original fitting, as used in the 60's and early 70's, as described here, not the knock-off.
lin posted 04-02-2005 05:38 PM ET (US)
I just replaced the bulb on the bow of my 1991 Montauk-- Mine was the original bulb and it was a 12V 10W Perko double festoon bulb. The rest of the letters are obscured by corrosion, but I think I see a 71 there too. So I second frostbite's call on the bulb-- at least in my Montauk.
Joe Kriz posted 04-02-2005 05:48 PM ET (US)
frostbite,
I cannot find the 71 DP CLR at Perko. I even did a search on their page. I am downloading their 20 MB catalog as we speak.
I am with LHG on this one. My bulb was the bayonet style also on my 1978 Montauk. I realize there were two different styles of Bow lights and they may have used different bulbs.

Here is the link at Perko for the Bayonet style:
http://perko.com/cgi-bin/perko.pl?dis+337-spare_bulbs_for_util_light_info
Still researching.....
Joe Kriz posted 04-02-2005 05:55 PM ET (US)
OK,
lin has a 1991 Montauk
frostbite, which model do you have?
If you look at Ryanwhalers photos of his bow light on his 1980 Montauk, it is even different than the one I had on my 1978.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0036.jpg
I had one that looked just like the one that Rob posted above.
http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=279
Still looking...
lin posted 04-02-2005 05:55 PM ET (US)
Here is the data from the Perko site-- you can look at the HTML version and do the pull down for:
Navigation Lights Under 20 Meters
Fig. 71 - Spare Bulbs
Spare Bulbs for Navigation Lights
Festoon Bulb - Double Ended

ORDERING INFORMATION
Nominal
Voltage Wattage Amps Bulb Dia Length (inches)
12 8 .70 71 DP8 CLR 3/8 1-1/8
12 10 .80 71 DP CLR 3/8 1-1/8

There wasn't a link for the page. The bulb I replaced said 12V and 10W.
Joe Kriz posted 04-02-2005 06:02 PM ET (US)
Alright,
Here is the link to the #71 bulb that some of the Montauk Bow lights use:
http://perko.com/cgi-bin/perko.pl?dis+71-spare_bulbs_for_nav_lights_info
frostbite posted 04-02-2005 06:10 PM ET (US)
I can send you a picture of the bulbs in the Perko blister pack, numbers clearly visible. My Montauk is also an 87. I wonder what the cut-off year was?
Joe Kriz posted 04-02-2005 07:13 PM ET (US)
frostbite,
Yes, please send me some photos of the bulbs in the pack or whatever you have.
Do you also have a photo of your Bow Light? I would like to see which version you have.
Thanks,
Joe
ratherwhalering posted 04-03-2005 01:45 AM ET (US)
My 1987 17-Montauk has a festoon bulb, like frostbite, with a 12 volt, 10 watt bulb, however I remember replacing it when I first got the boat several years ago, so I am uncertain if this is the correct wattage. Larry, I don't know the original or replacement information regarding your bow light, but hopefully someone here does. I returned the replacement, so I can't even give you this information, sorry. If I remember correctly, the replacement had a small diameter base, perhaps 3/8 inch. This makes me wonder if the "replacement" was modeled from an earlier version of the bow chock fixture, and therefore appropriate for, for example, Joe's Montauk, but not the mid-1980 applications.
If you look closely at the base of Ryan's bow light fixture, it does not have a molded section for the rub rail. http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg I will take pictures of another, original 1987 17-Montauk bow light apparatus in the morning, so we can clearly see the difference between the two.
Joe Kriz posted 04-03-2005 07:57 PM ET (US)
I had a friend of mine take a look at his bow light bulb on his 1977 Montauk.
Here is what he has:
#1416 - 12V, .8 Amps
You can view a photo of it here:
http://www.topbulb.com/find/prod_list.asp_Q_p_E_3_A_intSubCategory_E_460_A_sortby_E_watts_A_sortdir_E_
ratherwhalering posted 04-03-2005 09:36 PM ET (US)
Original 1987 17-Montauk bow light assembly, with molded lip to accomodate rub rail:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowApparatus.jpg
Original 1987 17-Montauk bow light fixture:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowLightFixture.jpg
1987 17-Montauk gunnel with assembly removed:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowGunnelandRail.jpg
Underside of 1987 17-Montauk gunnel with assembly removed:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/100_0153.jpg
My two English Labs this morning:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/100_0143.jpg

Joe Kriz posted 04-04-2005 12:20 PM ET (US)
Rob,
Great photos. It appears that there were at least 2 different styles of Bow Light-Chocks. I am putting together some photos of the differences. I'll post them when have finished.
The early ones used the bayonet style #1416 bulb and the later version used the #71 Festoon bulb. The replacement unit used even a different size of bulb although it is the same series and style, bayonet 337, as the early version.
LHG,
There is another question on the forum as to what bulb was used in the Wilcox Crittenden Bow lights. Since you have two original Outrages and a brand new set of bow lights in the box, what bulbs are original to the Wilcox?
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/008145.html
Tom W Clark posted 04-04-2005 12:32 PM ET (US)
Joe, et all,
It's not even as simple as that. There are several versions of the bow chock. The different parts accommodated different models and different model years.
For example, the bow chock on a 15' Whaler is a different part than the bow chock for a 17' Whaler.
Also, the bow chock was redesigned to accommodate the three pice rub rail in the early 1970s. Compare and contrast Rob's bow chock (linked to above) with the bow chock from Bruce Montgomery's 1968 Nauset:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage53.html#53-03
ratherwhalering posted 04-04-2005 12:59 PM ET (US)
Hmmm, good point Tom. I have been focusing entirely on Montauks here, but I'll bet the owners of other models will post-in here. I'm starting to wonder if this thread is worthy of an Article...anyway, looking at the two Montauk base plates, side by side:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg
and
http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg
I see two distinct differences, besides Ryan's light fixture itself, which I do not believe is an OEM product, although it is very well done. Both base plates are obviously OEM and of original installation, based on the position of the mounting holes as viewed from under the gunnels. The first difference is that the 1980 base plate is not molded to accommodate the rub rail. The second difference is that the 1980 base plate is set farther back. The bolts do not appear to pass through the white, plastic rub rail track, just the gunnel. Thus, the underlying track has been cut to allow the lip of the base plate to fold over the black, rubber rub rail. On the 1987 version, the base plate is set farther forward, the base is molded to the rub rail, and the bolts pass through the rub rail track, and the lip easily folds over both the track and rub rail.
When I installed the replacement, I noticed a small gap between the black rub rail and the lip of the base plate. This makes sense, since my mounting holes are set further forward. The replacement would probably fit Bruce and Ryans whalers perfectly, since Ryan's is already set up for a "flat base" and Bruce has a nice, flat plate to mount it on.
Joe, did your 1978 17-Montauk have a "cut" rub rail guide?
I would be very interested in viewing another 1980-1986 bow light fixture, from a side view, if anyone has the inclination. I think with enough information, we will be able to determine which year the Montauk bow light base plate was modified, and therefore for which years the replacement will be an exact match. I'm betting that it is a replica of an 1970s-1980(ish) 17-foot hull.
Tom W Clark posted 04-04-2005 01:16 PM ET (US)
Rob,
The issue of bow lights is another matter. The lights are even more complicated than the bow chocks. The light on Ryan's boat is OEM and I have posted numerous times that Whaler *DID* use this Perko off-the-shelf, stamped steel light at times on their small production boats.
I have also speculated that they did so in times when the supply of the custom cast bow lights were short, but it may have simply been a decision that was later reversed. See page 19 of the 1984 "Options and Replacement Parts" catalog located on Volume 1 of the Boston Whaler Catalog Collection for a good photo of this light (and chock).
Joe Kriz posted 04-04-2005 01:21 PM ET (US)
Good point Tom,
I too was more focused on the Montauk.. Montaukitis in this case.
I do realize that there were different styles for other models. Just look at the Newport series. The Newport had a Bow Bitt behind the Bow Light. No Chaffe Lip on the Bow Bitt like you see on many of the Outrage and Revenge series because it had the Chaffe Lip on the Bow Light Chock among other design differences.
Rob,
No, my rubrail was not cut. Neither is my friends 1977 Montauk. Ryan's is the first one I have seen like that.
For my research, I am going to stay with the Montauk and Outrage series at this time. Maybe someone else will take control of the other models.
I am going to be adding information on the Montauk Bow Light Chock to my Montauk page when I start getting more info.
http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/montauk-hin.html
ratherwhalering posted 04-04-2005 02:11 PM ET (US)
Update: I now believe that Ryan's bow light is OEM. ;-)
Joe Kriz posted 04-04-2005 02:14 PM ET (US)
Rob,
I still can't understand why the rub rail was cut when the 1977 and 1978 Montauks rub rail was not cut. Only the light part of the Bow Chock seems to be different except for the mounting hole locations as you mention.
Why were the mounting hole locations different?
LHG posted 04-04-2005 02:43 PM ET (US)
Joe, and others: Thanks for your excellent work and help on this bow/navigation light fixture.
I have the complete, original fixture on my 1971 Outrage, and can take some photos if anyone is interested. On mine, the light base is also chrome plated brass, with a (now rusted out) clip that held the mini-bayonet base (about 3/8" diameter) in place. This piece is completely covered up when the top cap goes on. The light base attaches to the flat plate of the bow chock, passing though the inside of the same diameter line chock, with four 8 x 1-3/4" fine thread machine screws. I remember that my 1971 Nauset had exaxtly the same fixture.
Joe, thanks for the info on the lamp size, and that is exactly the one I had thought was needed, which I searched out in the West catalog. I know that the current Perko bi-color lights use a 10 watt festoon lamp, for 2 mile visibility, but I was, and guess I still am, concermed that the heat from 10 watts would damage the original plastic bi-color lense. Seems like a lot of wattage in so small a space, and that's why I was wondering what BW originally furnished in there. So I purchased the same lamp in 5 watt size. I guess I'll try the 10 watt version and see if anything melts
ratherwhalering posted 04-05-2005 01:15 PM ET (US)
I have no idea why the mounting holes were different...perhaps they were not drilled using a template, but the base itself? Does anyone else have a picture of the cut rubrail, like the one pictured?
LHG posted 04-05-2005 06:05 PM ET (US)
Regarding the original BW fixture of the 60's and 70's, I found another lamp that I am going to try. It is the mini-bayonet base style, with a very small glass bulb in it, in 5 watt halogen, trade #840434. This fits much better inside the small bi-color lense than the #1416 with large glass dome, and I figure 5 watts halogen is the same as 10 watts regular. Can any of you EE's out there confirm this?
Incidentally, the replacement lamp socket I had to buy is Perko "Single contact bayonet socket" #1109-DP.
ratherwhalering posted 04-06-2005 04:00 PM ET (US)
Larry, you may want to do some more research regarding Halogen light bulbs. They produce more heat than standard incandecent. How much, I don't know. Lest anyone think that I for once know what I'm talking about, I got this of a quick internet search :-)

quote:
Halogen lamps are high pressure, incandescent lamps that contain halogen gases such as iodine and bromine that allow filaments to work at higher temperatures and higher efficiencies. Halogen lamps consist of a tungsten filament inside a quartz envelope that is filled with halogen gas. In halogen lamps, the quartz envelope is closer to the filament than the glass used in conventional light bulbs. Heating the filament to a high temperature causes the tungsten atoms to evaporate and combine with the halogen gas. These heavier molecules are then deposited back on the filament surface. This recycling process increases the life of the tungsten filament and enables the halogen lamp to produce more light per units of energy. Consequently, halogen lamps are used in a variety of applications, including automobile headlights.


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Author	Topic: A rap on replacement bow chock/light assembly from e-bay
ratherwhalering	posted 04-02-2005 11:49 AM ET (US) I recently purchased a bow light fixture from a vendor on e-bay. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/bow-light2.jpg It appeared to be an exact replica of the bow light apparatus for a 1987 17-Montauk. http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=279 However when I received it, there were some differences. First and foremost, the original was chrome plated bronze. The replacement appears to be chrome plated steel, of some sort. The assembly is composed of five distinct pieces. http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=278 1. Base plate. The base on my original assembly sits flat on the fiberglass gunnel, and has a molded lip to accommodate the rub rail. There are two holes that allow two bolts to pass through the plate, from under the gunnel. The replacement is a flat plate, that does not have a molded lip for the rub rail. The holes for the bolts is an exact match, but the replacement did not sit flat on the gunnel because the rub rail caused a gap underneath the plate. This could be solved by adding a thin, 1/8” piece of starboard butted up to rub rail, or simply filling the void with caulk. 2. Outer line chocks. Two, hourglass shaped, threaded posts act as guides for docking/anchoring lines, keeping the line on the base plate. They also provide the means for securing the assembly to the gunnel. The bolts mentioned above pass from under the gunnel, through the base plate, and thread into the guides. The guides have square bases that seat into square holes in the base plate. This allowed the bolts to be tightened without the guides spinning. The original guides are threaded for their entire length. The replacements have 6-8 threads, then a void for the remainder of the length. The replacements are also slightly thinner and have sharper edges. Side by side, only a discerning eye would notice a difference. 3. Center line chock. http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=275 A single, round, guide sits dead center of the base plate, elevating the light fixture and allowing a line to pass on either side. It is attached to the base plate with 3 screws. The original and replacement appear to be identical, however the mounting holes had a slight variation such that my replacement could not be mounted on my original base, and vice-versa. 4. Light fixture. The original Perkos light fixture was a plastic base, with a “C” crimp to mount the light bulb. The base has small nuts whereby the electrical leads could be removed/replaced. The replacement is generic socket type of mount, where the leads are soldered. It is a simple plastic base and sleeve, with a spring and base type of fixture, very similar to the stern light arrangement. The sleeve recedes into the center line chock, but is held only by friction, and can be pushed through if one exerts too much force trying to insert the light bulb into the sleeve. My replacement was a short waiting to happen, because the electrical leads were stripped a good 1/2” after the soldered connections. 5. Lens. The original, two part lens was set inside the light fixture cap, creating a seal with the light fixture base, cap, and center chock. The replacement is a solid dome, that seats in much the same way. The dome itself is smaller than the original, and looks slightly smaller than the cap when installed. Where the original looks like one lens/cap unit, the replacement looks like a bicolor lens with a protective cap. 6. Cap. The cap is a metal dome that surrounds the lens, with appropriate gaps for the light. This part is secured to the center chock with two exterior screws. The original and replacement caps appear identical, however I did not try to mount my original lens and fixture inside the replacement cap. I ended up returning my replacement, and having my original assembly re-chromed for $150.00. I then swapped lenses with my friend Kermit, while he wasn’t looking (just kidding Kermit.) Seriously, I bought the replacement because I didn’t want to deal with re-chroming, rebuilding, and cleaning the original...but after receiving it I would have had to do some modifications, as recommended by the manufacturer, so I just bit the bullet and decided to re-chrome. It was returned without any problems, and my money was refunded immediately. A very big thanks to Whaler Central for the photos of the original parts!
anthonylisske	posted 04-02-2005 01:41 PM ET (US) Thank you. I decided against the remake for the simple reason that it was not chrome over bronze. I appreciate you putting the mystery to rest as well as confirming my decision. Your post validates the value of this site.
LHG	posted 04-02-2005 02:50 PM ET (US) Could you tell me the correct lamp (light bulb) that is used in this fixture, voltage, model # etc? thanks
Joe Kriz	posted 04-02-2005 02:56 PM ET (US) Good question LHG, I have had that bulb out several times in the past but never thought to see what model it was as mine never burned out on my Montauk. This item would be great info to have in the OEM section.
Freeport Alan	posted 04-02-2005 04:35 PM ET (US) The phrase that comes to mind is " cheap knock offs " Good post & info
frostbite	posted 04-02-2005 04:57 PM ET (US) The bulb for the bow light is 12 volt, 10 watt, Perko catalog #71-DP-CLR. Joe, If you want an image of the bulb for your archives, let me know and I will email you a photo.
LHG	posted 04-02-2005 05:19 PM ET (US) Thanks, frostbite, but that is not the lamp (bulb) for the completely original unit that came on my 1971 Outrage. The one you have indicated is a festoon base lamp, and the one for my lamp socket is a "mini-bay" (Mini-Bayonet base) style. Anybody else know? I'm asking about the Whaler original fitting, as used in the 60's and early 70's, as described here, not the knock-off.
lin	posted 04-02-2005 05:38 PM ET (US) I just replaced the bulb on the bow of my 1991 Montauk-- Mine was the original bulb and it was a 12V 10W Perko double festoon bulb. The rest of the letters are obscured by corrosion, but I think I see a 71 there too. So I second frostbite's call on the bulb-- at least in my Montauk.
Joe Kriz	posted 04-02-2005 05:48 PM ET (US) frostbite, I cannot find the 71 DP CLR at Perko. I even did a search on their page. I am downloading their 20 MB catalog as we speak. I am with LHG on this one. My bulb was the bayonet style also on my 1978 Montauk. I realize there were two different styles of Bow lights and they may have used different bulbs. Here is the link at Perko for the Bayonet style: http://perko.com/cgi-bin/perko.pl?dis+337-spare_bulbs_for_util_light_info Still researching.....
Joe Kriz	posted 04-02-2005 05:55 PM ET (US) OK, lin has a 1991 Montauk frostbite, which model do you have? If you look at Ryanwhalers photos of his bow light on his 1980 Montauk, it is even different than the one I had on my 1978. http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0036.jpg I had one that looked just like the one that Rob posted above. http://whalercentral.com/photogallery.php?photo=279 Still looking...
lin	posted 04-02-2005 05:55 PM ET (US) Here is the data from the Perko site-- you can look at the HTML version and do the pull down for: Navigation Lights Under 20 Meters Fig. 71 - Spare Bulbs Spare Bulbs for Navigation Lights Festoon Bulb - Double Ended ORDERING INFORMATION Nominal Voltage Wattage Amps Bulb Dia Length (inches) 12 8 .70 71 DP8 CLR 3/8 1-1/8 12 10 .80 71 DP CLR 3/8 1-1/8 There wasn't a link for the page. The bulb I replaced said 12V and 10W.
Joe Kriz	posted 04-02-2005 06:02 PM ET (US) Alright, Here is the link to the #71 bulb that some of the Montauk Bow lights use: http://perko.com/cgi-bin/perko.pl?dis+71-spare_bulbs_for_nav_lights_info
frostbite	posted 04-02-2005 06:10 PM ET (US) I can send you a picture of the bulbs in the Perko blister pack, numbers clearly visible. My Montauk is also an 87. I wonder what the cut-off year was?
Joe Kriz	posted 04-02-2005 07:13 PM ET (US) frostbite, Yes, please send me some photos of the bulbs in the pack or whatever you have. Do you also have a photo of your Bow Light? I would like to see which version you have. Thanks, Joe
ratherwhalering	posted 04-03-2005 01:45 AM ET (US) My 1987 17-Montauk has a festoon bulb, like frostbite, with a 12 volt, 10 watt bulb, however I remember replacing it when I first got the boat several years ago, so I am uncertain if this is the correct wattage. Larry, I don't know the original or replacement information regarding your bow light, but hopefully someone here does. I returned the replacement, so I can't even give you this information, sorry. If I remember correctly, the replacement had a small diameter base, perhaps 3/8 inch. This makes me wonder if the "replacement" was modeled from an earlier version of the bow chock fixture, and therefore appropriate for, for example, Joe's Montauk, but not the mid-1980 applications. If you look closely at the base of Ryan's bow light fixture, it does not have a molded section for the rub rail. http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg I will take pictures of another, original 1987 17-Montauk bow light apparatus in the morning, so we can clearly see the difference between the two.
Joe Kriz	posted 04-03-2005 07:57 PM ET (US) I had a friend of mine take a look at his bow light bulb on his 1977 Montauk. Here is what he has: #1416 - 12V, .8 Amps You can view a photo of it here: http://www.topbulb.com/find/prod_list.asp_Q_p_E_3_A_intSubCategory_E_460_A_sortby_E_watts_A_sortdir_E_
ratherwhalering	posted 04-03-2005 09:36 PM ET (US) Original 1987 17-Montauk bow light assembly, with molded lip to accomodate rub rail: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowApparatus.jpg Original 1987 17-Montauk bow light fixture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowLightFixture.jpg 1987 17-Montauk gunnel with assembly removed: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/1987BowGunnelandRail.jpg Underside of 1987 17-Montauk gunnel with assembly removed: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/Parts/100_0153.jpg My two English Labs this morning: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/ratherwhalering/100_0143.jpg
Joe Kriz	posted 04-04-2005 12:20 PM ET (US) Rob, Great photos. It appears that there were at least 2 different styles of Bow Light-Chocks. I am putting together some photos of the differences. I'll post them when have finished. The early ones used the bayonet style #1416 bulb and the later version used the #71 Festoon bulb. The replacement unit used even a different size of bulb although it is the same series and style, bayonet 337, as the early version. LHG, There is another question on the forum as to what bulb was used in the Wilcox Crittenden Bow lights. Since you have two original Outrages and a brand new set of bow lights in the box, what bulbs are original to the Wilcox? http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/008145.html
Tom W Clark	posted 04-04-2005 12:32 PM ET (US) Joe, et all, It's not even as simple as that. There are several versions of the bow chock. The different parts accommodated different models and different model years. For example, the bow chock on a 15' Whaler is a different part than the bow chock for a 17' Whaler. Also, the bow chock was redesigned to accommodate the three pice rub rail in the early 1970s. Compare and contrast Rob's bow chock (linked to above) with the bow chock from Bruce Montgomery's 1968 Nauset: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage53.html#53-03
ratherwhalering	posted 04-04-2005 12:59 PM ET (US) Hmmm, good point Tom. I have been focusing entirely on Montauks here, but I'll bet the owners of other models will post-in here. I'm starting to wonder if this thread is worthy of an Article...anyway, looking at the two Montauk base plates, side by side: http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg and http://photobucket.com/albums/v222/ryanwhaler/rod%20pads/?action=view¤t=DSCF0038.jpg I see two distinct differences, besides Ryan's light fixture itself, which I do not believe is an OEM product, although it is very well done. Both base plates are obviously OEM and of original installation, based on the position of the mounting holes as viewed from under the gunnels. The first difference is that the 1980 base plate is not molded to accommodate the rub rail. The second difference is that the 1980 base plate is set farther back. The bolts do not appear to pass through the white, plastic rub rail track, just the gunnel. Thus, the underlying track has been cut to allow the lip of the base plate to fold over the black, rubber rub rail. On the 1987 version, the base plate is set farther forward, the base is molded to the rub rail, and the bolts pass through the rub rail track, and the lip easily folds over both the track and rub rail. When I installed the replacement, I noticed a small gap between the black rub rail and the lip of the base plate. This makes sense, since my mounting holes are set further forward. The replacement would probably fit Bruce and Ryans whalers perfectly, since Ryan's is already set up for a "flat base" and Bruce has a nice, flat plate to mount it on. Joe, did your 1978 17-Montauk have a "cut" rub rail guide? I would be very interested in viewing another 1980-1986 bow light fixture, from a side view, if anyone has the inclination. I think with enough information, we will be able to determine which year the Montauk bow light base plate was modified, and therefore for which years the replacement will be an exact match. I'm betting that it is a replica of an 1970s-1980(ish) 17-foot hull.
Tom W Clark	posted 04-04-2005 01:16 PM ET (US) Rob, The issue of bow lights is another matter. The lights are even more complicated than the bow chocks. The light on Ryan's boat is OEM and I have posted numerous times that Whaler DID use this Perko off-the-shelf, stamped steel light at times on their small production boats. I have also speculated that they did so in times when the supply of the custom cast bow lights were short, but it may have simply been a decision that was later reversed. See page 19 of the 1984 "Options and Replacement Parts" catalog located on Volume 1 of the Boston Whaler Catalog Collection for a good photo of this light (and chock).
Joe Kriz	posted 04-04-2005 01:21 PM ET (US) Good point Tom, I too was more focused on the Montauk.. Montaukitis in this case. I do realize that there were different styles for other models. Just look at the Newport series. The Newport had a Bow Bitt behind the Bow Light. No Chaffe Lip on the Bow Bitt like you see on many of the Outrage and Revenge series because it had the Chaffe Lip on the Bow Light Chock among other design differences. Rob, No, my rubrail was not cut. Neither is my friends 1977 Montauk. Ryan's is the first one I have seen like that. For my research, I am going to stay with the Montauk and Outrage series at this time. Maybe someone else will take control of the other models. I am going to be adding information on the Montauk Bow Light Chock to my Montauk page when I start getting more info. http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/montauk-hin.html
ratherwhalering	posted 04-04-2005 02:11 PM ET (US) Update: I now believe that Ryan's bow light is OEM. ;-)
Joe Kriz	posted 04-04-2005 02:14 PM ET (US) Rob, I still can't understand why the rub rail was cut when the 1977 and 1978 Montauks rub rail was not cut. Only the light part of the Bow Chock seems to be different except for the mounting hole locations as you mention. Why were the mounting hole locations different?
LHG	posted 04-04-2005 02:43 PM ET (US) Joe, and others: Thanks for your excellent work and help on this bow/navigation light fixture. I have the complete, original fixture on my 1971 Outrage, and can take some photos if anyone is interested. On mine, the light base is also chrome plated brass, with a (now rusted out) clip that held the mini-bayonet base (about 3/8" diameter) in place. This piece is completely covered up when the top cap goes on. The light base attaches to the flat plate of the bow chock, passing though the inside of the same diameter line chock, with four 8 x 1-3/4" fine thread machine screws. I remember that my 1971 Nauset had exaxtly the same fixture. Joe, thanks for the info on the lamp size, and that is exactly the one I had thought was needed, which I searched out in the West catalog. I know that the current Perko bi-color lights use a 10 watt festoon lamp, for 2 mile visibility, but I was, and guess I still am, concermed that the heat from 10 watts would damage the original plastic bi-color lense. Seems like a lot of wattage in so small a space, and that's why I was wondering what BW originally furnished in there. So I purchased the same lamp in 5 watt size. I guess I'll try the 10 watt version and see if anything melts
ratherwhalering	posted 04-05-2005 01:15 PM ET (US) I have no idea why the mounting holes were different...perhaps they were not drilled using a template, but the base itself? Does anyone else have a picture of the cut rubrail, like the one pictured?
LHG	posted 04-05-2005 06:05 PM ET (US) Regarding the original BW fixture of the 60's and 70's, I found another lamp that I am going to try. It is the mini-bayonet base style, with a very small glass bulb in it, in 5 watt halogen, trade #840434. This fits much better inside the small bi-color lense than the #1416 with large glass dome, and I figure 5 watts halogen is the same as 10 watts regular. Can any of you EE's out there confirm this? Incidentally, the replacement lamp socket I had to buy is Perko "Single contact bayonet socket" #1109-DP.
ratherwhalering	posted 04-06-2005 04:00 PM ET (US) Larry, you may want to do some more research regarding Halogen light bulbs. They produce more heat than standard incandecent. How much, I don't know. Lest anyone think that I for once know what I'm talking about, I got this of a quick internet search :-) quote: Halogen lamps are high pressure, incandescent lamps that contain halogen gases such as iodine and bromine that allow filaments to work at higher temperatures and higher efficiencies. Halogen lamps consist of a tungsten filament inside a quartz envelope that is filled with halogen gas. In halogen lamps, the quartz envelope is closer to the filament than the glass used in conventional light bulbs. Heating the filament to a high temperature causes the tungsten atoms to evaporate and combine with the halogen gas. These heavier molecules are then deposited back on the filament surface. This recycling process increases the life of the tungsten filament and enables the halogen lamp to produce more light per units of energy. Consequently, halogen lamps are used in a variety of applications, including automobile headlights.