posted 01-24-2011 03:06 PM ET (US)        

I am going to attempt to recreate this item for my 25' Outrage Cuddy.

posted 01-24-2011 05:02 PM ET (US)            

If you come across these, can you cc me on the email to Dave?

Thanks

posted 01-24-2011 06:04 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/014454.html

posted 01-24-2011 07:41 PM ET (US)            

Thanks for those photos - that's exactly what I was hoping for.

I doubt that the dimensions of the "foot well" for the 22 and 25 are the same, but I'd still be interested in those along with some of the basic measurements for the table as well. I believe I can take my own measurements for the 25 and scale them to fit. The first draft would be built out of plywood to get the dimensions right.

Maybe we can get a blank down to Mike at Nautical Lumber...

posted 01-24-2011 08:01 PM ET (US)            

I believe the tables are exactly the same for the 22 and 25 per some digging I did a while ago. I got tons of photos and measures from Sheila and Rich's 25 Revenge as well as ones from a table off a 22. I just purged my mail and think I am have thrown those emails away but, I will keep digging for them.

posted 01-24-2011 09:47 PM ET (US)            

Our 25' Revenge Cuddy did not have the table / hide the potty setup. The potty was mounted on a piece of wood, that slid on a track, _under_ the deck area. After fighting with it jamming in the slide track for one season, I removed the wood and track. Worked fine.

For the insert, all we used was a 3/4" piece of plywood, cut to fit. At night, I'd remove the potty from below, and place it on the deck, starboard side.

If your planning on making a table, keep in mind that there ain't much headroom in the Cuddy model. BTDT.

I'd think about making up a thin carbon fiber 1/4" covered baltec insert, with a few finger holes for ease of removal.

Depending on which way you sleep, the upright edging on the port and starboard locker doors can be painful in the middle of the night. If you sleep head forward, no problem. I ended up planing my edges off, and never had a problem with the cushions shifting.

posted 01-24-2011 09:58 PM ET (US)            

I know there isn't much headroom in there, but it sure would be nice to have a solution that isn't halfway. For Isle Royale, I put a piece of plywood in there, but that raised the side lockers slightly and I want the insert to be flush and look good.

No porta-pottie on my boat - But I do still have the OEM slider track and panel for that (removed right now for additional storage).

posted 01-25-2011 07:01 AM ET (US)            

Looking at Johns images reminded me on how I supported my insert; I mounted a 1x1 on each vertical portion of the hull. When the insert was in place, it was flush with the three hatches. Like I previously posted, it was 3/4" and cumbersome, probably overbuilt and a pain to store during the day. Needed access to the potty during daylight.

I'd even consider making a two section insert out of baltec and glass. Easier to store.

posted 01-25-2011 11:17 AM ET (US)            

If you and Russ are going to use it as a table, I will draw it out and e-mail it to you. Is there enough headroom to use it for a table. It's tight in the Revenge and I have never used it as a table.

It's a bulky son of a gun that is a pain to move around in the confines of the cuddy.

posted 01-25-2011 12:00 PM ET (US)            

If it is not too much trouble, some basic measurements would be appreciated.

posted 01-26-2011 12:40 AM ET (US)            

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ Whaler%20Cuddy%20Table/

posted 01-26-2011 01:35 PM ET (US)            

Upon measuring my cuddy (after brushing 6 inches of snow off the old girl), I can see why Whaler didn't offer these tables on the Outrage Cuddy.

For instance, John gave dimensions of 23 and 1/2 inches from anchor locker to the end of the filler as it sits in the footwell. My footwell area is only 29 and 1/2 inches from the anchor locker lid to the threshold of the companionway. That gives 3 inches of room.

Andy's last photo is the series linked above also provides insight into some differences between the two hull molds - the Outrage Cuddy anchor locker does not extend a "full height" fiberglass dam across the beam - it is a 1/3 height dam and the rest is filled in with a blank. for the table to work a cross brace must be installed. While completely functional for use with the filler/table, when you don't need the filler/table, that would just be in the way.

It looks like a functional but non glitzy solution like Don McIntyre used on his boat may be the better way to go (mount a 1' support block on the sides of the footwell and slide a sturdy support/filler panel and cushion in when needed for sleeping.

posted 01-26-2011 02:55 PM ET (US)            

With that in mind, I think the winning solution may be a free standing bunk filler that breaks down or folds into small enough components to be out of the way when not in use, and forget about the table feature. I've thought about adding some cleats along the sides of the cuddy well to act as supports for a filler panel, but I'm loath to drill holes there and suspect that some type of molly anchor would be needed to provide enough strength for an adequate sleeping platform. The big plywood filler I'm using now overlaps the locker lids and is a really lousy solution. It makes it hard to get into any of the lockers, it's big and heavy and it has to be completely removed in order to deploy the porta potty.

You've got me thinking about this now, and since the boat is in the driveway for winter projects, I may just need to flesh this out a bit more...

posted 01-26-2011 04:00 PM ET (US)            

I used Jimh's filler piece he built as an example. A friend of mine was the main designer/ Builder with my help (he has all the proper tools)for mine.

Mine does not need any added pieces for it to sit on such as blocks mounted to the side of the foot well/rope lockers, etc. It is made with a oblong hole in the fore end that fits over the trim piece that usually holds the table option when it is covering the porta potty. The aft end of filler piece sits on top of the side edges of the seating area. The aft edge has a lip molding on it to keep the cushion from sliding off. It matches up perfectly with the anchor, rope locker covers as does the cushion I had made for it. making for a nice level, even platform.

I'll have to take some photos of it & post them. I used it on the Isle Royal Trip last aug/Sept and it worked beautifully. When I am alone on the boat I use a folding mattress I got a costco, it's vinyl on one side and fabric on the other, it's just a little less than single bed size and makes it very comfortable. I just lay that on top of the existing cuddy cushions and filler cushion.

As Don McIntyre said, the molding lips on the anchor/rope locker covers can dig in to one's back, especially if the cushions are original OEM and old such as mine. My next plan for camping is to buy a queen size memory foam mattress topper, cut it to fit the entire cuddy area, have cover made for it and place it on top of the cushions for one big sleeping platform.

posted 01-26-2011 04:05 PM ET (US)            

How is your platform supported on the sides? The table uses the whole table top (on edge) to support the platform - so there's no need for drilling.

My rope locker hatches overhang the hull mold by about an inch - so there is nothing to provide support at that end...that is what has me very confused about your setup.

posted 01-26-2011 04:20 PM ET (US)            

You can see the tan bulkhead that is screwed into the hull at the bottom. Whaler used a teak wood beam across the top. If you look down at the anchor locker when standing in the cabin, you'd notice that the sides and front of the locker extend from the bunk surface to the bottom of the locker. At the back, it is a non air or watertight plastic molded bulkhead. Since there is no anchor locker drain, I assumed this was to allow moist anchor line to drain and dry.

I don't know why they were built differently either. I wonder if the Revenge Cuddy was designed like the Revenge or the Outrage Cuddy.

John's image that shows the anchor locker open shows a complete bulkhead to which a bit of wood is fastened.

So....on the Revenge, the edges and back of the anchor locker look like this (in terms of fiberglass):

|____|

The Outrage Cuddy's anchor locker looks like this:

|_ _|

posted 01-26-2011 04:24 PM ET (US)            

The only addition to my hull for the insert/table is the wooden cleat (seen in Andy's photos) that holds the forward end of the insert/table.

posted 01-26-2011 05:12 PM ET (US)            

I think I've reasoned upon why Whaler did this.

The Cuddy itself is shorter than the Revenge cabin (if measured from the bow to the edge of the cuddy) - this must have been done so you could have walk around access from the center console.

To make up some of this lost room, they removed the topsides anchor locker that is found on the Revenge models and "shrunk" the space up front that would store anchor line. In fact, the cavity forward of the cabin and beneath the hawespipe on the deck at the bow is very small - it can generally just accommodate chain rode only, no line. I leave my rope line in the forward locker and disconnect the chain rode when underway. (This is also why I run with a second anchor, chain and rode in the cockpit of the boat - for emergency deployment).

As with all boats, everything is a compromise. Right now,I believe Whaler cut into the forward locker to provide a bigger cabin space/footwell in the "moved forward" configuration.

When you think about it, the Cuddy design is really about a place to sleep on a long fishing outing, not really for cruising and camping. They probably reasoned that some of the sacrifices made for this design were worth it for the intended use.

posted 01-26-2011 06:16 PM ET (US)            

Dave, do you have lights in the cuddy?

posted 01-26-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)            

I think we've clearly established why Whaler offered this table/filler as an option on the Revenge models, but not the Outrage Cuddy: they had made additional modifications to the interior hull mold on the Outrage Cuddy models that made this table impractical.

posted 01-26-2011 07:43 PM ET (US)            

It sounds like the rope locker on the 25 may be different than my 22? Mine has plenty of room for chain and rode, though the deck rope pipe is too small and a constant source of irritation for me. One of these days I'll install a bigger one, if I can ever find one of decent quality. Note from this photo that my rope locker is just a partitioned area at the fore part of the cuddy. It's made out of that same plastic material used elsewhere and covered with the headliner fabric. You can see the Beckson plate where the rope can be reached from inside the cuddy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/Whaler%20details/ CuddyCabin.jpg

I have the line drawings for a 1987 Outrage 22 Cuddy, and it shows the anchor locker with the plastic divider and the glass and foam dam removed. Not sure why they would do this, except perhaps to let everything drain to the cuddy floor sump. None of my lockers have through hulls, and the rope locker more or less drains to the bottom of the cuddy liner via the anchor locker. The sump is aft of the companionway, and it does have a through hull. Mine had the OEM bilge pump as well, which pumps overboard via an above waterline through hull behind the plastic cover on the starboard side of the console.

posted 01-26-2011 08:30 PM ET (US)            

5'8" here too...either way works for me.

It appears that my anchor rope compartment up front is smaller than yours, and I really guess I have too much rope anyway! It is a similar setup, but there's no overhang in the bow over the lifting ring.

My boat is a 1983, which I believe is the first year they offered the cuddy - so that may have been one of the improvements they made in later models.

The forward locker is where I store my rope. The two side lockers (what I call rope or fender lockers) have through hull drains.

The footwell doesn't, although it does have a covered sump aft of the companionway. There is currently a bilge pump located in this area, which pipes the water up to the deck under the console where it drains aft. I plan to change this configuration when I have a chance so that the water vents to the rigging tunnel under the deck to the aft sump. It appears that the 'out the tunnel and to the side' design was also a later improvement made to the boat.

Thanks for the insight on the switches. The boat did come from a saltwater environment, so I will do as you suggest and take them apart to clean them of any built up corrosion.

posted 01-26-2011 09:48 PM ET (US)            

I don't think there is any difference, between the Revenge and the Outrage Cuddy, from what I recall being in the cabins of both. I did change out the hawspipe, to handle a length of chain. Further, I think I recall that beneath the floorplate, toward the rear was an access hatch to a drain plug. Also in that area was a factory built in wood section for a through hull depth sounder transducer.

I tried sleeping in both directions; it's a trade off. Head forward and we didn't have enough shoulder room, but minimal problem with the locker door ridges. Feet forward made my head plug up (slight slope to the rear did it) and ended up in the middle of the night waking up breathing through my mouth (no comments about cops being mouthbreathers here....). And also waking up in pain from sleeping on the ridges. At least until I planed them off.

By using two inserts (instead of one big assed piece of 3/4" plywood) and supporting cleats, you might be able to store each over the side hatches with minimal problems. If you want to try and fabricate them with 1/2" baltec and fiberglass, I'd send you some left over carbon fiber roving. When I made the sleeping platform sections, it was also an exercise in vac bagging that I wanted to try. It's not a requirement.

posted 01-27-2011 04:35 PM ET (US)            

Just because the OE Table/filler panel won't work on this model doesn't mean there is anything wrong, and the boat was going to need canvas anyway, so what's the harm in having fun designing my own?

My hawespipe has already been upgraded by the previous owner to handle the 15' of SS chain he has on the anchor, although this is the second boat I've purchased that came with a bent danforth anchor....so I have two danforth's with bent flukes in my collection, which are being relegated to lunch hook duty, and my favorite anchor, my 5KG Bruce, which will serve as my overnight hook.

The bow pulpit is nearly finished - I put on the 12th coat of varnish this afternoon (I'll stop now). I'll be working on the filler panel for the cuddy next month, and hopefully by then we'll be breaking free from the snow and ice so I can get out there and remove the rest of the wood for refinishing, and put the new rubrail on the boat.

posted 01-27-2011 05:56 PM ET (US)            

I sleep feet forward to use the built in lamps and for easy access to the door to take a quick look outside when things go bump in the night. It is also less claustrophobic for me. The problem with this arrangement is the natural slope of the cushions puts my head below my feet or at least it feels like I am aimed downhill. My solution was my "mattress" which is one of those foam egg carton mattress covers that I have folded in thirds lengthwise to use as a single bed. It's long enough that I can fold a portion over on itself to raise the waist to head portion of my bed.

In you boat camping modifications to the cuddy, I suggest you pick the direction you want to sleep in and design around it.

John

posted 01-27-2011 06:17 PM ET (US)            

Don't know about Dave, but I can tell you why we went with the 25 Cuddy. It was about 1981 when we had _three_days_straight of driving rain up in the 'Channel. At that point I said to Gail that the next boat was going to:

A - Be a Whaler.
B - Have some sort of fibeglass over my head.

posted 01-27-2011 09:15 PM ET (US)            

Lake Nipigon was cold and rainy. As can be Lake Superior and even Georgian Bay. With the E-Tec engines, I was spending a lot of time underway during the shoulder seasons. Hopefully I can do that again soon - but one thing is certain - the fiberglass Cuddy IS warmer and less drafty than the canvas shelter. Sustained 40Kt winds and 40 degree temps at Isle Royale this summer proved that.

Also, on our cruises, the slip assignments for relatively full marinas often have us near the sea wall or where there are pedestrians passing by - including, at times, later at night. The Cuddy provides more privacy from these onlookers, and some quiet from the revelry.

For instance, at Sturgeon Bay there was some kind of wedding celebration that went to very late at night. Normally, I'd stay up, but that particular night I was exhausted and just wanted to crash.

posted 01-29-2011 02:08 PM ET (US)            

regarding support on the sides for my filler panel, I don't have any. My filler panel has three points of support. All the way across in the front/bow end and both corners on the back/aft end.

The filler panel was made from 3/4" Birch Plywood, and has support pieces of 1"X 3" across the bottom to prevent flex. It fits perfect and there is absolutely no flex. I also had thoughts of hinging it half way for easy access to storage under it and built the panel so it could be done in the future if I decide to do so.

When I have the cabin loaded, I can, slide my gear to the side, and lift the rear end of the panel to get at things stored underneath, no need to remove remove the cushion. It isn't something that could be done in a hurry or while underway though.

I'll take & post those photos asap...

posted 01-29-2011 02:28 PM ET (US)            

Speaking of Noise I bet you wish I had a cuddy instead of Mills canvas on my first cruise with you guys in the North Channel. Seems to me you were somewhat outspoken about my snoring while tied up just across the dock from me at Kilarney...LOL

posted 01-31-2011 09:55 AM ET (US)            

Here's what my hull interior looks like:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32201423&l=454fa827db& id=1383963684

Sorry for the mess!

Anyway, on inspection, it is clear that Whaler cut the forward locker bulkhead and re-glassed the area.

Also interesting detail - the hinges on the forward locker were SS, but the hinges on the side locker were what looks like ZAMAC - clearly a replacement item? All four hinges were that way - PERKO, but clearly flaking and deteriorating.

Looks like I'll be replacing those.

posted 04-20-2011 02:22 PM ET (US)            

Still need to go "dry fit" it out in the boat, but it's looking pretty good. Once I get it fit correctly, I'll stain it and varnish it. Then get a cushion made for it.

Thanks again to those of you who provided photos, illustrations and dimensions.

posted 04-22-2011 09:43 AM ET (US)            

This difference may also account for the reduced headroom in the cabin on the Outrage Cuddy models - be "benches" are higher? I found this interesting.

Made the adjustment last night and will be dry fitting again today and then setting up the final pieces to get it all together.

Looks great!

This site, and the people on it, are awesome.