Not so enamored with Florida Marine Tanks right now

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Author Topic:   Not so enamored with Florida Marine Tanks right now

kmev posted 06-03-2011 10:38 PM ET (US)
I've been extolling the virtues of new FMT tanks for classic Outrages here lately, but tonight I finally found the time to install my new FMT tank into my '75 Outrage 21 - I am temporarily reneging my praise.
Here is a pic of the OEM vent tube: https://picasaweb.google.com/keith.meverden/ WhalerTank?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzOlZq5hKL0HA#5614180781669845538
Here is a pic of the FMT vent tube with the tank installed. The rusty square represents the level of the deck cover: https://picasaweb.google.com/keith.meverden/ WhalerTank?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzOlZq5hKL0HA#5614181027182428626
Here is a copy of the schematic I was required to approve before construction - note the vent tube is the only item without a measured height: https://docs.google.com/document/d/ 19GXgvBhswvNbmu6sIQKHYjrv4ClohzkDIY7HCIE4xZw/edit?hl=en_US& authkey=COKyyesP#
A 1" tall vent tube like the OEM tank would work fine. I'll be calling FMT on Monday to see how they want to handle this. So much for getting on the water this weekend.

deepwater posted 06-04-2011 06:26 AM ET (US)
Im not sure how thick the metal top is but it looks like all thats needed is a screw in 90° elbow
kmev posted 06-04-2011 09:16 AM ET (US)
I could jury rig it, but I paid for a OEM-spec drop-in tank, not one that has to be jury-rigged.
anthonylisske posted 06-04-2011 09:32 AM ET (US)
I am in the northeast, so I pulled my tank and my pop drove it to Atlantic tanks in New Jersey to be fabricated. I did this to save on shipping. They made a great tank. The elbow it essential. Mine just fit, but I sweated it the whole time.
I wouldnt bend it into place becuase if you restrict the vent, it will take hours to fill it and it also might imped the flow out of the tank.
Sorry to hear about the SNAFU. It would [anger] me to no extent if I paid to dollar.
For the record, my original had a 90-degree mitered vent tube connection, so do not let them tell you the OEM had a simple bent tube.
Good luck. I think FMT will do alright by you.
contender posted 06-04-2011 07:35 PM ET (US)
kmev: You should have requested and specified a vent the same as you other tank, I did not see any specification for the vent in the drawing, so not to side with anyone but since you did not specified a vent height and type you get what they put in. The correct way would have been to put in a threaded 5/8-inch collar so you could screw-in your brass 90. I can only think of two ways to repair this error. You would have to remove the tank and take it back to the welder to remove the vent and replace with a threaded collar for your connection. The next solution would be to cut it off, then use a hole saw same size as your fuel sender hole. Go back to the welder and have them weld a threaded collar on a 2.5-inch to 2-inch disc and drill the 5 holes to match a fuel sender (same size as the sender for the fuel fill and make it look like a donut). Use the same kind and size gasket as the fuel sender and tap five screws into the tank. Now when you place the donut on the tank put the threads on the inside of the tank. Your threads will be low and even with the tank and screw your 5/8-threaded 90 into the tank. Good luck
Corsair posted 06-05-2011 11:48 AM ET (US)
I just replaced the floor tank and 2 saddle tanks in my 1976 Outrage 21 and had Boyd Welding in Ocala, Fl. build the new tanks. I did take the old tanks to them so they could copy them exactly. They installed baffles which I don't believe that the origional tanks had and they also installed an aluminum fuel pick up. The origional saddle tanks had brass or bronze pick ups and there were holes in both tanks directly below the pick up location due to electrolsis (I assume). I also had them add mounting locations or 1-1/2" "bung holes" for fuel sending units for all three tanks. The project is not yet complete but the tanks are in place and every thing fits. I highly recomend Boyd Welding if you are in the central Fl. area, they really specialize in aluminum fuel tanks for cars and boats. They also have a decent web site and are working to make it better. It does work out well if they have the old tank as a guide. Shipping could be the deal breaker depending on your budget or location.
FYI on a historical note the origional tanks were made by Helio Precision Products located in Bedford. Mass. I believe that they no longer exist. Atleast they didn't seem to have a web presence.
I'll try to update when when complete. The trick now is electrically switching the 3 fuel senders to work on one fuel gauge. My plan is to Blue Seas switch model# 9010B which is a 4 position switch with an off/on/on/on. The switch wasn't cheap so I hope it works. If any one else has run up against this please chime in.
Tom W Clark posted 06-05-2011 01:09 PM ET (US)
Keith -- I can certainly understand your frustration. But remember, the tank was built from the drawing you approved. I am sure the guy(s) who built your tank were not the guy(s) who built your original tank 36 years ago. In fact, they not have even been born yet.
Without any note or dimension on the drawing (which is a 1990 CAD rendition of the original drawing) about the height of the vent, I do not think it is unreasonable that they built the vent the way they did. They had no way of knowing what the original looked like without more information from the drawing or a specific request from you.
Setting the blame-game aside, the question is: What to do now? I see this as a simple problem. It is unlikely the tank will go back to Florida when all that is needed is the have the vent cut out of the tank, 3/4" cut off the bottom of the vent tube and then have it re-welded back into the tank at the lower level.
This is not a big deal.
I would, however, insist that FMT add a BIG detail note about the vent to their CAD drawing so this never happens to anybody else.
deepwater posted 06-05-2011 03:41 PM ET (US)
KMEV,, A 90* screw in is what it looks like they used on your OEM,,Its an easy fix
Raaaaay posted 06-06-2011 06:25 PM ET (US)
Be careful even with a 90 degree screw in elbow, as a standard elbow may be "too high" for your needed clearance.
I just replaced my tank in my 1973 Outrage 19 and I had a threaded insert in the new tank. It was suitable for a screw in elbow, but a standard elbow still hit the tank cover.
I needed to go with a "street elbow" which has a lower profile angle to it.
So, if you go this option you may also have to go with a "street elbow".
The street elbow cleared the tank cover by "just enough", although I also took a grinder to the inside of the cover and ground off a very small amount of the fiberglass to give me a little added clearance and comfort level.
I did shim the bottom of the tank with 1/2" starboard, and I guess I could have shimmed it with thinner material, but I already had the shims in place, and the tank brackets holding down the new tank when I discovered the clearance problem with the standard elbow, so that is why I went with the "street" elbow.
kmev posted 06-06-2011 10:07 PM ET (US)
The tank wall is only 1/8" and I am not comfortable with a screw-in fitting in thin wall aluminum. The threads would be NPT and I think there is too much risk for cracks.
The first welding shop I went to spent over 30 minutes discussing how difficult it would be to fix before he stated he didn't want the "liability".
The second shop said they would fix it for $60, but did acknoweldge there wasn't a lot of room to weld the underside of the vent tube. I suggested building up the weld as much as needed, as cosmetics were not an issue. I pick it up on Wednesday.
After I dropped the tank off FMT called me back. They said they have never encountered this problem before. They did offer to fix it for free, but neither of us was willing to pay the $300 in shipping fees for that to occur. They also warned that anyone else welding on the tank voided the warranty.
I can't see how there would be a warranty issue with the tank, so I suggested a $60 refund to cover the repair, no warranty, and they mark the schematic with a big warning so no one else encounters this problem. He was going to run it by his boss and let me know tomorrow.
contender posted 06-07-2011 05:54 PM ET (US)
I think you should consider my idea of the fix with the hole saw and the 2.5-2 inch (5/8 center welder collar)donut collar with the 5 holes(tap the five screws in the tank just like were/how the sender is), Your tank has a sending unit and this would just be the same thing but with a vent, the collar is welded to the donut and the donut screwed to the tank, This does not void your tank warranty cause there was no welding...
Tom W Clark posted 06-07-2011 06:23 PM ET (US)

quote:
...FMT called me back. They said they have never encountered this problem before.
Keith -- You are not the first person this has happened to:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001366.html
Stevebaz posted 06-07-2011 08:37 PM ET (US)
Your warenty is useless if it cost $300.00 to send it back to fix it and to and preserve your warrenty then if it fails under warrenty you will have to pay another $300.00+ to have it fixed under warrenty. Thats $600.00 in the hole before you even start. Cut the tube miter it to where you want it and weld it. pressure test the repair if its good to go then get some epoxy putty sticks and mold a bridge around the tube to the tank for hose and vibration support and be done with it. By building a support you wont get metal fatigue in your soft welded joint. Keep your pressure test low. Check your tank certs they should say what the factory pressure tests to. Put it back together and go boating your repair will never fail. If your welder is scared of his profession then get a better welder.
kmev posted 06-07-2011 08:43 PM ET (US)
Tom - that is funny that is HAS happened before, and most likely more than a few times. No one from FMT called me back today, and I wasn't too surprised.
The tank is being MIG welded. Depending on what the welds look like, I may apply a coat of JB weld over them to ensure there is no porosity and reduce any chances of flexing or cracks.

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Author	Topic: Not so enamored with Florida Marine Tanks right now
kmev	posted 06-03-2011 10:38 PM ET (US) I've been extolling the virtues of new FMT tanks for classic Outrages here lately, but tonight I finally found the time to install my new FMT tank into my '75 Outrage 21 - I am temporarily reneging my praise. Here is a pic of the OEM vent tube: https://picasaweb.google.com/keith.meverden/ WhalerTank?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzOlZq5hKL0HA#5614180781669845538 Here is a pic of the FMT vent tube with the tank installed. The rusty square represents the level of the deck cover: https://picasaweb.google.com/keith.meverden/ WhalerTank?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzOlZq5hKL0HA#5614181027182428626 Here is a copy of the schematic I was required to approve before construction - note the vent tube is the only item without a measured height: https://docs.google.com/document/d/ 19GXgvBhswvNbmu6sIQKHYjrv4ClohzkDIY7HCIE4xZw/edit?hl=en_US& authkey=COKyyesP# A 1" tall vent tube like the OEM tank would work fine. I'll be calling FMT on Monday to see how they want to handle this. So much for getting on the water this weekend.
deepwater	posted 06-04-2011 06:26 AM ET (US) Im not sure how thick the metal top is but it looks like all thats needed is a screw in 90° elbow
kmev	posted 06-04-2011 09:16 AM ET (US) I could jury rig it, but I paid for a OEM-spec drop-in tank, not one that has to be jury-rigged.
anthonylisske	posted 06-04-2011 09:32 AM ET (US) I am in the northeast, so I pulled my tank and my pop drove it to Atlantic tanks in New Jersey to be fabricated. I did this to save on shipping. They made a great tank. The elbow it essential. Mine just fit, but I sweated it the whole time. I wouldnt bend it into place becuase if you restrict the vent, it will take hours to fill it and it also might imped the flow out of the tank. Sorry to hear about the SNAFU. It would [anger] me to no extent if I paid to dollar. For the record, my original had a 90-degree mitered vent tube connection, so do not let them tell you the OEM had a simple bent tube. Good luck. I think FMT will do alright by you.
contender	posted 06-04-2011 07:35 PM ET (US) kmev: You should have requested and specified a vent the same as you other tank, I did not see any specification for the vent in the drawing, so not to side with anyone but since you did not specified a vent height and type you get what they put in. The correct way would have been to put in a threaded 5/8-inch collar so you could screw-in your brass 90. I can only think of two ways to repair this error. You would have to remove the tank and take it back to the welder to remove the vent and replace with a threaded collar for your connection. The next solution would be to cut it off, then use a hole saw same size as your fuel sender hole. Go back to the welder and have them weld a threaded collar on a 2.5-inch to 2-inch disc and drill the 5 holes to match a fuel sender (same size as the sender for the fuel fill and make it look like a donut). Use the same kind and size gasket as the fuel sender and tap five screws into the tank. Now when you place the donut on the tank put the threads on the inside of the tank. Your threads will be low and even with the tank and screw your 5/8-threaded 90 into the tank. Good luck
Corsair	posted 06-05-2011 11:48 AM ET (US) I just replaced the floor tank and 2 saddle tanks in my 1976 Outrage 21 and had Boyd Welding in Ocala, Fl. build the new tanks. I did take the old tanks to them so they could copy them exactly. They installed baffles which I don't believe that the origional tanks had and they also installed an aluminum fuel pick up. The origional saddle tanks had brass or bronze pick ups and there were holes in both tanks directly below the pick up location due to electrolsis (I assume). I also had them add mounting locations or 1-1/2" "bung holes" for fuel sending units for all three tanks. The project is not yet complete but the tanks are in place and every thing fits. I highly recomend Boyd Welding if you are in the central Fl. area, they really specialize in aluminum fuel tanks for cars and boats. They also have a decent web site and are working to make it better. It does work out well if they have the old tank as a guide. Shipping could be the deal breaker depending on your budget or location. FYI on a historical note the origional tanks were made by Helio Precision Products located in Bedford. Mass. I believe that they no longer exist. Atleast they didn't seem to have a web presence. I'll try to update when when complete. The trick now is electrically switching the 3 fuel senders to work on one fuel gauge. My plan is to Blue Seas switch model# 9010B which is a 4 position switch with an off/on/on/on. The switch wasn't cheap so I hope it works. If any one else has run up against this please chime in.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-05-2011 01:09 PM ET (US) Keith -- I can certainly understand your frustration. But remember, the tank was built from the drawing you approved. I am sure the guy(s) who built your tank were not the guy(s) who built your original tank 36 years ago. In fact, they not have even been born yet. Without any note or dimension on the drawing (which is a 1990 CAD rendition of the original drawing) about the height of the vent, I do not think it is unreasonable that they built the vent the way they did. They had no way of knowing what the original looked like without more information from the drawing or a specific request from you. Setting the blame-game aside, the question is: What to do now? I see this as a simple problem. It is unlikely the tank will go back to Florida when all that is needed is the have the vent cut out of the tank, 3/4" cut off the bottom of the vent tube and then have it re-welded back into the tank at the lower level. This is not a big deal. I would, however, insist that FMT add a BIG detail note about the vent to their CAD drawing so this never happens to anybody else.
deepwater	posted 06-05-2011 03:41 PM ET (US) KMEV,, A 90* screw in is what it looks like they used on your OEM,,Its an easy fix
Raaaaay	posted 06-06-2011 06:25 PM ET (US) Be careful even with a 90 degree screw in elbow, as a standard elbow may be "too high" for your needed clearance. I just replaced my tank in my 1973 Outrage 19 and I had a threaded insert in the new tank. It was suitable for a screw in elbow, but a standard elbow still hit the tank cover. I needed to go with a "street elbow" which has a lower profile angle to it. So, if you go this option you may also have to go with a "street elbow". The street elbow cleared the tank cover by "just enough", although I also took a grinder to the inside of the cover and ground off a very small amount of the fiberglass to give me a little added clearance and comfort level. I did shim the bottom of the tank with 1/2" starboard, and I guess I could have shimmed it with thinner material, but I already had the shims in place, and the tank brackets holding down the new tank when I discovered the clearance problem with the standard elbow, so that is why I went with the "street" elbow.
kmev	posted 06-06-2011 10:07 PM ET (US) The tank wall is only 1/8" and I am not comfortable with a screw-in fitting in thin wall aluminum. The threads would be NPT and I think there is too much risk for cracks. The first welding shop I went to spent over 30 minutes discussing how difficult it would be to fix before he stated he didn't want the "liability". The second shop said they would fix it for $60, but did acknoweldge there wasn't a lot of room to weld the underside of the vent tube. I suggested building up the weld as much as needed, as cosmetics were not an issue. I pick it up on Wednesday. After I dropped the tank off FMT called me back. They said they have never encountered this problem before. They did offer to fix it for free, but neither of us was willing to pay the $300 in shipping fees for that to occur. They also warned that anyone else welding on the tank voided the warranty. I can't see how there would be a warranty issue with the tank, so I suggested a $60 refund to cover the repair, no warranty, and they mark the schematic with a big warning so no one else encounters this problem. He was going to run it by his boss and let me know tomorrow.
contender	posted 06-07-2011 05:54 PM ET (US) I think you should consider my idea of the fix with the hole saw and the 2.5-2 inch (5/8 center welder collar)donut collar with the 5 holes(tap the five screws in the tank just like were/how the sender is), Your tank has a sending unit and this would just be the same thing but with a vent, the collar is welded to the donut and the donut screwed to the tank, This does not void your tank warranty cause there was no welding...
Tom W Clark	posted 06-07-2011 06:23 PM ET (US) quote: ...FMT called me back. They said they have never encountered this problem before. Keith -- You are not the first person this has happened to: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001366.html
Stevebaz	posted 06-07-2011 08:37 PM ET (US) Your warenty is useless if it cost $300.00 to send it back to fix it and to and preserve your warrenty then if it fails under warrenty you will have to pay another $300.00+ to have it fixed under warrenty. Thats $600.00 in the hole before you even start. Cut the tube miter it to where you want it and weld it. pressure test the repair if its good to go then get some epoxy putty sticks and mold a bridge around the tube to the tank for hose and vibration support and be done with it. By building a support you wont get metal fatigue in your soft welded joint. Keep your pressure test low. Check your tank certs they should say what the factory pressure tests to. Put it back together and go boating your repair will never fail. If your welder is scared of his profession then get a better welder.
kmev	posted 06-07-2011 08:43 PM ET (US) Tom - that is funny that is HAS happened before, and most likely more than a few times. No one from FMT called me back today, and I wasn't too surprised. The tank is being MIG welded. Depending on what the welds look like, I may apply a coat of JB weld over them to ensure there is no porosity and reduce any chances of flexing or cracks.