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Author Topic:   Fuel Tank Sender

picflight posted 12-09-2013 12:43 PM ET (US)
I wanted to drain the fuel tank on a 1998 Outrage 17. Took the sender's five screws off, a sixth screw, black ground wire broke off. Got the sender off, smelled gas as soon as the sender unit popped out. I think this was a good sign that the gasket and five screw sealants were intact. Could this be the original sender? The paint or coating on the tank matches the sender top and screws.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04925.jpg
After a bit of cleaning:
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04935.jpg
Now my dilemma, looks like some thing is not right on the sender unit. Did some thing break off?
I also drained the fuel separator.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04949.jpg
The hand siphon pump I got from Harbor Freight did not do the job, I could not get anything flowing. So, I am now thinking of using an auto fuel pump to pump it all out. I will need some sort of hard pick up tube to be able to direct the pick in the tank.
Or, I should try and separate the fuel line from the intake of the fuel separator, the end that goes into the fuel tank and connect a fuel pump there to get everything out of the tank. Is this a more effective drain and clean method?
What sort of sender do I get and where can I get it?
jlh49 posted 12-09-2013 02:18 PM ET (US)
I used [a WEMA fuel tank level sender] the last time I replaced a fuel sending unit. Verify that the guage you are using matches the sending unit (Standard/Metric). Good luck!
picflight posted 12-09-2013 03:23 PM ET (US)
Thanks to jlh49. I ordered a Prime Instruments sender unit from Florida Marine, the maker of my tank. They had the exact dimension for the float. I feel comfortable that it should fit in just perfect.
Now I need to figure out how to hunt for the broken pieces left in the tank.
69wailer posted 12-09-2013 03:43 PM ET (US)
On my Grady I used a Mr. Gasket electric fuel pump with two hoses, one in the tank and the other I used to fill other cans and tanks. Pumped out gas like a charm. Can get at any major auto store Auto Zone, NAPA, Advance Auto, etc.
My advice go WEMA all the way. You wont get false readings as the floats are on the cylinder itself. Just be sure to measure tank depth correctly and provide that info to them. You won't regret it.
picflight posted 12-09-2013 06:32 PM ET (US)
69wailer--thanks for the tips. I just got the Mr Gasket pump. Now off to rigging the pump. How should the pick-up in the tank? Would PVC work? I am thinking it has to be a pipe of some sort so that it remains at the bottom and easier to direct.
Ridge Runner posted 12-09-2013 09:41 PM ET (US)
Wow - that jar of "liquid" seems very contaminated. I would get the tank drained and cleaned professionally. Also that Sierra 18-7845 filter is a 21 Micron filter - make sure to switch to a 10 micron filter.
Bulldog posted 12-09-2013 09:42 PM ET (US)
I would not reuse that separator-filter, look into the Racor models that have a clear bowl with drain on it, you can see what is inside by just looking, and drain if needed. Jack
Phil T posted 12-10-2013 08:06 AM ET (US)
A trusted source for fuel senders is
http://www.e-components.net
jimh posted 12-10-2013 09:33 AM ET (US)
Your fuel tank appears to have a five-bolt pattern access plate. That seems to be a standard for electric fuel tank level sender mounting.
The WEMA sender and two other improved electronic fuel tank level senders, the CENTROID and the SSI TECHNOLOGIES, are mentioned in a prior discussion at
Fuel Tank Level Sender: Electrical
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000632.html
The screw fastener with the black conductor attached seems to have broken, which is actually rather interesting. That conductor carried a small electrical current from the fuel tank level gauge. Apparently that small electrical current caused some corrosion of the screw fastener over time.
Here is a link to a page of Prime Instruments fuel tank level senders:
http://www.primeinstruments.com/senders/senders.html
You probably ordered the P4078 model, or something similar.
http://www.primeinstruments.com/senders/fuel-sender-P4078-specs.html
picflight posted 12-10-2013 11:38 AM ET (US)
Ridge Runner--thank you for pointing out the detail on the filter. I thought it was a 10 micron.
Bulldog--I had a replace filter to use but as Ridge Runner pointed out, I have the 21 Micron.
For the Parker Hannifin # 490R-RAC-01, Racor, will the bolt patterns be the same to the existing one?
How do I remove the broken pieces of the sender unit in the tank?
jimh posted 12-10-2013 01:59 PM ET (US)
RACOR filters for boats are usually spin-on, not bolt on. RACOR makes filters that can fit a variety of spin-on manifolds.
jimh posted 12-10-2013 02:07 PM ET (US)
If overhauling the fuel system, consider the RACOR unit I describe in
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/020618.html
picflight posted 12-10-2013 02:50 PM ET (US)
jimh--I am still getting used to the terminology. I thought that I had to change the bracket or manifold as well, that is why I mentioned the screw pattern. Thanks for the reference to the RACOR system. I will have a look.
69wailer posted 12-11-2013 04:30 PM ET (US)
I just used regular fuel line [I think this is in reference to a question earlier asking what sort of component is to be used as a fuel tank pick-up. See above--jimh]. The grey reinforced [regular fuel line] is plenty stiff [especially] in colder weather. If [you are] in a warm climate perhaps put [the gray reinforced regular fuel line] in the freezer BEFORE putting gas through it. Your wife may not like smell of gas with food.
jimh posted 12-12-2013 09:05 AM ET (US)
The fuel hose described as "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" is not very good for use as a fuel line these days. Many instances have been observed where the "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" has been degraded by use of ethanol-gaosline blended fuels. I would avoid using those gray fuel lines in any application. I certainly would not use it as a fuel tank pick-up tube, if that is what has been suggested. I am not very clear on exactly what has been suggested as a use for the "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" or why it needs to be chilled or refrigerated before being used. Can we have some elaboration, please.
Because of the wide use of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels, only good quality rubber fuel hoses which are clearly marked as A1 rating for use with alcohol fuels should be used in a boat fuel system. If you have any fuel hose that has a gray color you should be very suspicious of its ability to tolerate ethanol-gasoline blended fuels. The gray jacket fuel hose is not up to the task.
69wailer posted 12-12-2013 11:31 AM ET (US)
It [here I assume "it" refers to some sort of generic gray fuel hose] is ethanol compatible.
He [here I assume "he" refers to picflight] was using it [the gray fuel hose] to attach to his Mr. Gasket Pump to remove the fuel from the tank which is a much better option than the use of PVC pipe as he was attempting.
The line is stiffer when cold. Not sure you need to do that as those lines to be plenty of stiff as is.
If concerned about making sure it is on the bottom then zip-tie it [the gray fuel hose] to something like a piece of wood or pipe to fit in the sending unit hole.
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/store/product/portable-fuel/fuel-kits/universal-non-marine
or similar. For the 10 minutes or so it is going to take to pump out 150 gallons of gas pretty much any type of fuel line can be used.
jimh posted 12-12-2013 12:13 PM ET (US)
Thats for the elaboration, but it was still unclear who "he" and "it" were. I think you mean that you are recommending using any sort of fuel hose available as a temporary fuel tank pick-up to be attached to a temporary pump to temporarily create a means of removing fuel from a tank. Thanks for trying to clarify what you were recommending.
Again, the experience I have seen by examination of gray fuel hose that has been cut open has shown me that it is awful stuff and not at all suitable for use with blended ethanol-gasoline fuels. I have seen example of the inner lining of the hose completely separating from the outer jacket and clogging the hose, restricting fuel flow and creating a big problem. I wouldn't use it. I doubt you can find any of it marked A1 rated for alcohol fuels.
As for making some sort of device to temporarily drain the fuel from the tank, it might be simpler to try to siphon out the fuel. If the boat is on a trailer, you can siphon fuel from the boat fuel tank to a tank on the ground quite easily, if there are no flow check valves in the fuel system. If there are check valves you may have to create a suction with a pump to remove the fuel.
The metal rod and float from the original fuel tank level sender are still in the tank, somewhere. Removing them would be prudent.
jlh49 posted 12-12-2013 12:52 PM ET (US)
I have experienced the condition with a grey fuel line hose as described by jimh. I would avoid using one if possible.
A far as the float rod/cork and/or any other relatively larger debris in your tank, if it is equipped with baffles, those items might not migrate to your fuel pick up.
However, draining a tank is not that difficult by using the siphon method. As long as your collection container is lower than the tank being emptied, once the gas is started it will flow nicely.
Locating & removing the debris is a bigger challenge but not impossible if equipped with the right retrieval tools such as telescoping mirror, flexible retrieval tool, & a miniature halogen light.
Good luck!

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Author	Topic: Fuel Tank Sender
picflight	posted 12-09-2013 12:43 PM ET (US) I wanted to drain the fuel tank on a 1998 Outrage 17. Took the sender's five screws off, a sixth screw, black ground wire broke off. Got the sender off, smelled gas as soon as the sender unit popped out. I think this was a good sign that the gasket and five screw sealants were intact. Could this be the original sender? The paint or coating on the tank matches the sender top and screws. http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04925.jpg After a bit of cleaning: http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04935.jpg Now my dilemma, looks like some thing is not right on the sender unit. Did some thing break off? I also drained the fuel separator. http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx356/abbytoca/Fuel/DSC04949.jpg The hand siphon pump I got from Harbor Freight did not do the job, I could not get anything flowing. So, I am now thinking of using an auto fuel pump to pump it all out. I will need some sort of hard pick up tube to be able to direct the pick in the tank. Or, I should try and separate the fuel line from the intake of the fuel separator, the end that goes into the fuel tank and connect a fuel pump there to get everything out of the tank. Is this a more effective drain and clean method? What sort of sender do I get and where can I get it?
jlh49	posted 12-09-2013 02:18 PM ET (US) I used [a WEMA fuel tank level sender] the last time I replaced a fuel sending unit. Verify that the guage you are using matches the sending unit (Standard/Metric). Good luck!
picflight	posted 12-09-2013 03:23 PM ET (US) Thanks to jlh49. I ordered a Prime Instruments sender unit from Florida Marine, the maker of my tank. They had the exact dimension for the float. I feel comfortable that it should fit in just perfect. Now I need to figure out how to hunt for the broken pieces left in the tank.
69wailer	posted 12-09-2013 03:43 PM ET (US) On my Grady I used a Mr. Gasket electric fuel pump with two hoses, one in the tank and the other I used to fill other cans and tanks. Pumped out gas like a charm. Can get at any major auto store Auto Zone, NAPA, Advance Auto, etc. My advice go WEMA all the way. You wont get false readings as the floats are on the cylinder itself. Just be sure to measure tank depth correctly and provide that info to them. You won't regret it.
picflight	posted 12-09-2013 06:32 PM ET (US) 69wailer--thanks for the tips. I just got the Mr Gasket pump. Now off to rigging the pump. How should the pick-up in the tank? Would PVC work? I am thinking it has to be a pipe of some sort so that it remains at the bottom and easier to direct.
Ridge Runner	posted 12-09-2013 09:41 PM ET (US) Wow - that jar of "liquid" seems very contaminated. I would get the tank drained and cleaned professionally. Also that Sierra 18-7845 filter is a 21 Micron filter - make sure to switch to a 10 micron filter.
Bulldog	posted 12-09-2013 09:42 PM ET (US) I would not reuse that separator-filter, look into the Racor models that have a clear bowl with drain on it, you can see what is inside by just looking, and drain if needed. Jack
Phil T	posted 12-10-2013 08:06 AM ET (US) A trusted source for fuel senders is http://www.e-components.net
jimh	posted 12-10-2013 09:33 AM ET (US) Your fuel tank appears to have a five-bolt pattern access plate. That seems to be a standard for electric fuel tank level sender mounting. The WEMA sender and two other improved electronic fuel tank level senders, the CENTROID and the SSI TECHNOLOGIES, are mentioned in a prior discussion at Fuel Tank Level Sender: Electrical http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000632.html The screw fastener with the black conductor attached seems to have broken, which is actually rather interesting. That conductor carried a small electrical current from the fuel tank level gauge. Apparently that small electrical current caused some corrosion of the screw fastener over time. Here is a link to a page of Prime Instruments fuel tank level senders: http://www.primeinstruments.com/senders/senders.html You probably ordered the P4078 model, or something similar. http://www.primeinstruments.com/senders/fuel-sender-P4078-specs.html
picflight	posted 12-10-2013 11:38 AM ET (US) Ridge Runner--thank you for pointing out the detail on the filter. I thought it was a 10 micron. Bulldog--I had a replace filter to use but as Ridge Runner pointed out, I have the 21 Micron. For the Parker Hannifin # 490R-RAC-01, Racor, will the bolt patterns be the same to the existing one? How do I remove the broken pieces of the sender unit in the tank?
jimh	posted 12-10-2013 01:59 PM ET (US) RACOR filters for boats are usually spin-on, not bolt on. RACOR makes filters that can fit a variety of spin-on manifolds.
jimh	posted 12-10-2013 02:07 PM ET (US) If overhauling the fuel system, consider the RACOR unit I describe in http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/020618.html
picflight	posted 12-10-2013 02:50 PM ET (US) jimh--I am still getting used to the terminology. I thought that I had to change the bracket or manifold as well, that is why I mentioned the screw pattern. Thanks for the reference to the RACOR system. I will have a look.
69wailer	posted 12-11-2013 04:30 PM ET (US) I just used regular fuel line [I think this is in reference to a question earlier asking what sort of component is to be used as a fuel tank pick-up. See above--jimh]. The grey reinforced [regular fuel line] is plenty stiff [especially] in colder weather. If [you are] in a warm climate perhaps put [the gray reinforced regular fuel line] in the freezer BEFORE putting gas through it. Your wife may not like smell of gas with food.
jimh	posted 12-12-2013 09:05 AM ET (US) The fuel hose described as "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" is not very good for use as a fuel line these days. Many instances have been observed where the "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" has been degraded by use of ethanol-gaosline blended fuels. I would avoid using those gray fuel lines in any application. I certainly would not use it as a fuel tank pick-up tube, if that is what has been suggested. I am not very clear on exactly what has been suggested as a use for the "grey reinforced [regular fuel line]" or why it needs to be chilled or refrigerated before being used. Can we have some elaboration, please. Because of the wide use of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels, only good quality rubber fuel hoses which are clearly marked as A1 rating for use with alcohol fuels should be used in a boat fuel system. If you have any fuel hose that has a gray color you should be very suspicious of its ability to tolerate ethanol-gasoline blended fuels. The gray jacket fuel hose is not up to the task.
69wailer	posted 12-12-2013 11:31 AM ET (US) It [here I assume "it" refers to some sort of generic gray fuel hose] is ethanol compatible. He [here I assume "he" refers to picflight] was using it [the gray fuel hose] to attach to his Mr. Gasket Pump to remove the fuel from the tank which is a much better option than the use of PVC pipe as he was attempting. The line is stiffer when cold. Not sure you need to do that as those lines to be plenty of stiff as is. If concerned about making sure it is on the bottom then zip-tie it [the gray fuel hose] to something like a piece of wood or pipe to fit in the sending unit hole. http://www.attwoodmarine.com/store/product/portable-fuel/fuel-kits/universal-non-marine or similar. For the 10 minutes or so it is going to take to pump out 150 gallons of gas pretty much any type of fuel line can be used.
jimh	posted 12-12-2013 12:13 PM ET (US) Thats for the elaboration, but it was still unclear who "he" and "it" were. I think you mean that you are recommending using any sort of fuel hose available as a temporary fuel tank pick-up to be attached to a temporary pump to temporarily create a means of removing fuel from a tank. Thanks for trying to clarify what you were recommending. Again, the experience I have seen by examination of gray fuel hose that has been cut open has shown me that it is awful stuff and not at all suitable for use with blended ethanol-gasoline fuels. I have seen example of the inner lining of the hose completely separating from the outer jacket and clogging the hose, restricting fuel flow and creating a big problem. I wouldn't use it. I doubt you can find any of it marked A1 rated for alcohol fuels. As for making some sort of device to temporarily drain the fuel from the tank, it might be simpler to try to siphon out the fuel. If the boat is on a trailer, you can siphon fuel from the boat fuel tank to a tank on the ground quite easily, if there are no flow check valves in the fuel system. If there are check valves you may have to create a suction with a pump to remove the fuel. The metal rod and float from the original fuel tank level sender are still in the tank, somewhere. Removing them would be prudent.
jlh49	posted 12-12-2013 12:52 PM ET (US) I have experienced the condition with a grey fuel line hose as described by jimh. I would avoid using one if possible. A far as the float rod/cork and/or any other relatively larger debris in your tank, if it is equipped with baffles, those items might not migrate to your fuel pick up. However, draining a tank is not that difficult by using the siphon method. As long as your collection container is lower than the tank being emptied, once the gas is started it will flow nicely. Locating & removing the debris is a bigger challenge but not impossible if equipped with the right retrieval tools such as telescoping mirror, flexible retrieval tool, & a miniature halogen light. Good luck!