posted 03-01-2006 08:49 PM ET (US)        

This morning, thanks to glenE, I got a long ride in a very nicely set up center console (not a Boston Whaler but a fine WELLCRAFT) with a pair of 250-HP VERADO motors. It was a very pleasant two hours and many thanks to Glen for taking me (and LHG) out for a spin in the deep blue water of the Atlantic Ocean.

I'll have more to say about this test ride in the next few days, but for now let me just give a quick re-cap:

--the Verado has an extremely smooth power band. The engine seems glad to run at any RPM you set it for, and it delivers very smooth throttle response;

--the DTS controls are fabulous. They really are a great addition to a boat. This is not just a VERADO-only feature with Mercury, but it is standard with the Verado engine. Mercury has done a great job with DTS. Particularly with TWIN engines, the DTS is a revolution. The throttles have a totally cool auto-synch feature. If the throttle handles are within a few degrees of each other, the DTS system will automatically try to synchronize the engine speeds. If the throttle hands are more than about 5-degrees apart in their mechanical positiion, then the DTS software figures you are intentionally trying to run them at different speeds, and it does not automatically synchronize them. Having spent a couple of years running twin engine boats and using a lot of that time to tweak the throttles to match, this is a FANTASTIC feauture. The engines keep themselves in synchronization most of the time without you having to bother with gazing at the tachomoters and figuring out which engine is running slow or fast.

--the NOISE, VIBRATION, and HARSHNESS (NVH) or lack of it is amazing. Every time we cut the engines back to idle, their noise was so low we thought they had died! Glen commented that it took some getting used to, as the engine noise was so low you could not use it as feedback when manuevering around the dock. You had to be careful not to come into the dock too hot because the engine noise was just about non-existant.

posted 03-02-2006 10:46 AM ET (US)            

Some builders initially placed the boost pump in the console area, but it makes more sense to have it in the stern. That is where Wellcraft has located it. The pump is about the size of a large battery. Hydraulic lines, control wiring, and heavy electrical cables connect to the pump. It is housed in a black enclosure which looks something like a tall battery box. On glen's boat, the pump has been fitted with a field service modification to suppress a high-pitched whine which was noticeable in some early pumps. Even leaning into the stern compartment and carefully listening, I could not really hear any noise artifacts from the pump. At the helm and in the cockpit, it was inaudible.

The advantage of the power steering is two-fold: the steering effort at the wheel is reduced, and the speed of the steering is increased. Only four turns lock-to-lock are needed. When manuevering around the dock, the faster steering is very handy. A third benefit is the steering acts as a economy auto pilot. The boat will hold a courseline when you leave the wheel unattended for a moment, a tendency which is always appreciated in any vessel.

posted 03-02-2006 11:25 AM ET (US)         

It sounds as if your experience was similar to mine: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/003161.html

It would be interesting compare your experience on the Verado powered boat with boats powered by four stroke engines from Yamaha, Suzuki, and Bombardier. Competition has clearly benefitted the consumer in this segment of the outboard market.

I agree that boat shows sometimes provide great opportunities for test rides, but the individual experience is often lacking. There is no substitute for a sea trial with a willing owner on his personal boat, especially one who is experienced like Glen.

posted 03-02-2006 11:25 AM ET (US)            

I was wearing a hat with a lanyard, so when Glen hit the throttles after we left the Hillsboro Inlet we didn't have to turn around and go back for it. The acceleration of the big boat onto plane and up to 35-MPH was very impressive.

When the boat was delivered the engine mounting height was set as low as possible, but subsequent testing has raised the engines three holes. There was also a slight toe-out rigging (i.e., the wakes are slightly convergent). A change to REVOLUTION4 propellers from MIRAGEplus was also made. En toto, the boat performance was improved by an impressive 9-MPH as a result. The builder has now adopted Glen's set-up as the standard configuration. The boat will hit over 50-MPH with a light load, allowing the engines to wind to 6,000-RPM. We did not hit that speed, but we did see an impressive 48 to 49-MPH.

I believe the hull weight is about 8,200-lbs, so the 1,4000 pounds of Verado are not a problem. Glen feels quite certain the Verado is the right motor for this boat, but he pointed out it may not be the right motor for all boats, particularly for boats under 23-feet or so. The boat is about 14 months old, and Glen already has 300 hours or so underway. Oh the joys of waterfront living in Florida!

The Verado, the DTS, and the power steering are all components that depend on electrical power for operating. As a result, Glen has four top-of-the-line AGM marine batteries on board. The engines need a strong battery for starting and running, so there is a separate digital voltmeter and battery monitoring system installed to precisely track the battery condition.

Glen's motors have the newer cowling design which reduces problems with water ingress. The cooling system aspirators are also mounted on the forward side of the engine. Often the sound of the water exhaust hitting the ocean is the only aural indication that the motors are running. Glen's motors also had a very nice flush port attachment on the forward portion of the mid-cowling. That location makes flushing the motors easier. There is also a well-engineered hose connection that is simple to thread onto a hose end fitting. You can do it from the cockpit.

We did not tear into the beautifully rigged console, but Glen said there were more electronic black boxes associated with the engine and its SmartCraft instrumentation system hidden behind the dashboard. The boat was equipped with twin tachometer displays and a central speedometer display. All of these can also display other data via scroll buttons. Six or seven separate analogue-style gauges also kept track of engine temperature, engine water pressure, fuel tank level, and fuel flow rate. (I'll have more to say about the vessel electronics in another article for SMALL BOAT ELETRICAL. The executive summary: first-class and about the most well-integrated system on a small boat that I have ever seen.)

I jumped aboard Glen's Verado and SmartCraft machine after several days of running a "classic" outboard, LHG's Mercury 150-HP V6 c.1980 equipped with mechanical cable steering. Larry's motor is in fine tune and runs as well as any two-stroke of that age and configuration ever did, however, the gap between running that motor and running a Verado is much wider than you might think. The four-stroke motor's smooth response, the DTS shift and throttle, and the effortless power steering combine to create a new level of boating. There is no comparison. I know this is trite, but it is a whole new world of boating with a modern engine like a Verado.

posted 03-02-2006 11:38 AM ET (US)         

It sounds as if this might be a great opportunity for you to upgrade to a new Verado. The Outrage 18 is in South Florida and Sundance Marine is right there! Open up the wallet, and let the new Verado fly!

posted 03-02-2006 07:28 PM ET (US)            

I might add an addition/correction to your report and that is about the batteries. I really did not add the batts due to the verados but to make sure I have excess capacity. The verados do take a lot of power with the pump and ecm's but would do nicely with two AGM's of proper capacity. But it's the other stuff I have that drain. I have a 600 watt amp driving 6 coaxials, along with a dash that incorporates over 21 different components that draw current. The extra two batteries are for drift condition where the stereo is loud, bait wells are running and most of the dash components. The verados will run fine on two AGM's but they must be 1000 CCA's.

posted 03-03-2006 11:28 AM ET (US)            

To overlook the flawless performance of the engine itself--which I guess these days we almost want to take for granted in new motors--what impressed me the most about the long Verado test drive was:

--NVH
--DTS
--SmartCraft

These are not unique to the supercharged four-stroke outboard motor, but I have to say the Verado has these features in spades.

NVH--I think we can use this acronym for Noise, Vibration and Harshness with some familiarity these days as it will soon be about as common as RPM--is a new standard of measurement in outboard motors. In fact, Mercury Marine president MacKay said that NVH represented the future of boating improvement. This is especially true for outboard motors. We have historically been using two-stroke outboard motors that have had lousy NVH characteristics. In the minds of most people, the next outboard motor they buy will have to have better NVH characteristics than their current motor. I would not replace my current classic two-stroke with a new motor unless the new motor has significantly improved NVH characteristics. Yes, I want other improvements, too, but my next motor will have to run quietly and smoothly. That is near the top of the list of important features. The Verado delivers this probably better than any other outboard available at the moment. It is quiet, there is no vibration, and there are not qwerks or harshness to the response.

DTS is more important in twin engine installations where the auto-synchronizing feature is just absolutely great. The detail with the throttle handle position initiating auto-synch is very compelling. I had not heard this mentioned before, and it is important. As people who drive twin engines know, you can spend too much time tweaking with the throttles and gazing at the tachometers while trying to keep the engines in synchronization.

However, I could give it up in a single engine installations. It also makes the engine tied to a battery. When I say that, I recognize that the engine is also tied to other things, too. It won't run without fuel. It won't run without a propeller. It won't run without cooling water. We live with these demands. For an engine on a big boat, we will have to live with the demand for a good battery. Actually, I cannot start my classic two-stroke without a fully charged cranking battery, so needing a strong battery to run the DTS is not that much of a stretch.

I think electronic throttle control will become more common. It is already common in many vehicle applications. And the irony of a modern engine is that in most cases the mechanical controls just operate an electrical control under the cowling, as well as a mechancial throttle plate. At some point, engine technology will get rid of the throttle plate or butterfly, and everything will be electronic.

In the Verado, the electrical controls still operate mechanical controls under the cowling. If you had a real failure with the DTS, it would be possible to yank the cowling and run the engine using the mechanical levers. It would be awkward, no doubt, but possible.

SmartCraft is a plus for the Verado. Mercury has had SmartCraft in production for several years, and they are already on the second generation of display devices. Their new Vessel View--I am still seeking a photograph of this new device shown in Miami--adds color ot the display and gives reportedly better viewing in sunlight. And probably better graphics. SmartCraft is not a deal maker or a deal breaker, but it is a nice feature. It is mandatory on the Verado engines, from what I can tell.

After this test ride, I do think that the Verado lives up to its billing as a "propulsion system." The supercharged four-stroke motor is integrated with DTS, power steering, and SmartCraft, and together they deliver an impressive new level of engine performance, control, and quiet.

To get all of these features will require an overhaul of most existing classic Boston Whaler boats. You will need new controls, new instruments, new steering, and possibly upgraded battery and electrical systems. Your boat will also have to tolerate the weight, not only the engine weight but other required components like the steering boost pump. (The size of the steering pump should be about the same size as a large two-stroke oil reservoir.) And of course, you will have to tolerate the cost, too.

Off the top of my head, I do not recall anyone having re-powered a classic Whaler with a Verado, other than a couple of larger 27-foot hulls. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has put a Verado on the transom of a smaller Whaler, something under 27-feet. If I have overlooked a previous report about such an installation, feel free to remind me.

posted 03-03-2006 12:07 PM ET (US)         

Wait a minute...LHG actually listened to a stereo on a moving boat and you're using acronyms? The sun must be particularly hot in South Florida this time of year! That's a sign that new Verados are in Larry's future, but he'll have to purchase them in bulk if his fleet continues to expand!

All kidding aside, it sounds as if Glen has gone to incredible lengths to put together and perfect a great package. He is a wealth of knowlege whose posts are very informative. I have studied the photographs of his boat and learned a lot. Wellcraft, Mercury, and the myriad other vendors whose products he's installed could learn a lot from him as well.

posted 03-03-2006 12:56 PM ET (US)            

Factory outboards on 32 ft boats making 45ish!
yikes.

How do you guys view the big picture,
are I/O's doomed?

regards,

posted 03-04-2006 05:02 AM ET (US)            

Great report here and a good read for all those interested in the Verado. I haven't been on this forum long but try and check through it from time to time. I have quickly come to recognize input from Jim as being thorough and easy to follow for the novice and experienced boater alike. I also enjoy reading the unbiased input from glenn e on many topics on this and other forums.

posted 03-04-2006 09:21 AM ET (US)            

Captan, I might remind you that my original input on this thread was a simple challenge to Jim's suggestion that the power steering had something to do with the boat's ability to maintain course (track straight) while the wheel was momentarily unattended. (I think by now Jim is used to my occasional challenges). The post immediately following that was glenE's. Rather than simply saying something like "yes you are correct or I agree" or "no, I don't agree you are not correct and the reason why is that the powersteering system is not simply a power steering pump but rather a prime mover with advanced extra terrestrial course holding fully integrated, gyroscopic gadgetry borrowed under license from the NASA space shuttle program....", which would have been constructive, informative and additive to the dialog, Glen simply chimes in "you better go a bit easy on the nice comments - it'll just bring the anti-verado hoards out in droves....".

Now getting back on topic, I'm very much in agreement on Jim's later comments with respect to the DTS system. I see the auto-sync feature as really the most valuable part of it and its only valuble, obviously, for twin outboard installations. The auto-sync feature should help out in the fuel economy department as I can see a difference in fuel economy on my Navman 3100 when my twin outboards are not in-sync versus when they are in-sync. While we heap all of this praise on the auto-sync feature, let's keep in mind that the auto-sync feature isn't a new concept. Glendenning has had an auto-sync for diesels for years. The Teleflex electronic control system (out in the world before the DTS system was) that can be used for outboars, I/Os and in-boards also has an optional auto-sync feature although I think it requires the push of a button to engage it rather than just entering the sync mode when the levers are less than 5 degrees apart. The DTS system does appear to have an advantage over the Teleflex system in that the electro-mechanical actuators are under the cowl instead of resident on the boat. I suspect that this is what is meant when we hear the word "integrated" used.

With respect to failures, I do have some concerns with respect to electronic/electric controls (DTS or Teleflex or even OMC's late 1960s push button Selectric Shift) on a boat used in salt water in that they do not seem to provide any progressive feedback concerning the state of the cable system and the linkages under the cowl. Mechanical controls usually provide lots of feedback as to the overall state of the cable system and linkages, and much advance notice that the system is degrading or needs some attention long before an ultimate failure. With a digital or electric cable, there may not be any advance advance notice prior to an ultimate failure caused by corrosion, for example.

posted 03-04-2006 11:10 AM ET (US)            

The use of electrically operated mechanical throttle and shift controls, and their integration into a throttle and shift system such as has been done with the Mercury DTS, so far as been very reliable, as least to judge by the complete lack of any reports of failure of these systems. I think DTS is a plus, a very big plus for twin or triple engine installations.

posted 03-04-2006 11:16 AM ET (US)            

I have tried to relate my first-hand experience with the Verado, and I'll be glad to do the same with other engines and configurations, after I get a chance to go out in boats with those engines.

posted 03-04-2006 11:47 AM ET (US)            

I don't think the DTS system has been out in the real world long enough and in large enough numbers to be able to fully grasp its long term reliability yet. While the DTS system preceeded the Verado, I don't think many Optimaxes were deployed with the DTS system. Just like anything else newly introduced and deployed, time will tell regarding long term reliability in the variety of real world situations encountered.

posted 03-04-2006 03:24 PM ET (US)            

You see fourdfish, this is exactly what I am talking about. Leave it alone man, its like you're on a gradeschool playground always trying to get the last word in. Let it go and let's act adultlike please.

posted 03-04-2006 05:49 PM ET (US)            

Both fourfish and Peter have strongly disagreed with me on various subjects over the years here, but I've learned from both of them--especially Peter, whose posts are just about always filled with fact and logic to support his positions. These guys are anything but trolls, as you'll find out if you stick around and participate for a while. Peter is one of the 'Ten Wise Men' at this forum, IMO (most of us know who the others are, and I'd list them but I know I'd leave somebody out who has been a generous teacher since I joined).

Anyway, the comments of fourfish and Peter on this thread haven't been disruptive to me or most of the rest of us, so why not leave them alone and get back on topic. I want to learn more about those Verados; jimh's posts here have been the most exhaustive personal and trustworthy comments I've read since they were introduced; and if some intelligent probing is done by some of the members, it just leads to more helpful information being elicited.

Tight lines, Cap and others...

posted 03-04-2006 06:30 PM ET (US)            

But here’s my problem – I have been posting here for just a short time but on THT for a few years,. I try to do a lot of this like Jim and always add pics and graphs to support my experience, I think the best thing about forums is to bring add’l knowledge of some real experience to the table, I come here to learn and share.

That’s what I don’t see these other guys like fourdfish and peter doing across all the boards. They never add or write a review of something they have, they just pick apart the semantics of the way someone writes or better yet, if they don’t like product, they search for a keyword like verado or Garmin and tear apart a thread for stupid stuff. That’s what I don’t like. Bring your experiences to the party or don’t post.. For example, you would never see me tear down a Furuno Radar just cause I have a Garmin, because I don’t know the Furuno product. I really get the feeling these guys just want to debate and they really have a hard on for some products…..

And I ask again, if Peter is one of the top elders of this board – what is with the comment of “"A mutual Verado product admiration society probably can be found at the Verado Club clubhouse." Does not the word “probably” show he is just inciting an argument? I expect better from “elders”…

posted 03-04-2006 08:36 PM ET (US)            

First of all, thanks for giving Jim the ride which gave rise to this very interesting thread.

Peter and fourfish can speak for themselves much better than I, but perhaps you're too personally involved in this particular topic to sense how innocuous and actually helpful their comments have been. Hell, we've had some real nasty battles around here on occasion, and while this is the only online forum I participate in regularly, I understand that THT and many others seem to attract much more unpleasantness than CW, at least at the current time. I credit a combination of Jim's hard work and the cooperation of 99% of the members (including myself!) for the civility which has mostly reigned over the past year or so (and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the future, especially with the upcoming mid-term election cycle).

This discussion really should continue over in the Meta forum, and we should get back to talking about the Verado sea trial. I'll close by disagreeing with your statement that Peter and fourfish never write positive posts or raise constructive topics...to the contrary and with respect, if you go back over the posts and topics for the past several years, you'll see how mistaken you are.

posted 03-04-2006 09:21 PM ET (US)            

and again I ask how Peter's comment about the Verado club is not just a cheap shot for an elder....

posted 03-05-2006 12:17 PM ET (US)            

Glen--I left my blue fleece in your stern locker. We'll have to go out for another ride so I can get it back. :-)

posted 03-05-2006 12:33 PM ET (US)            

On many boats with classic two-stroke motors, the engine speed responds to the throttle like it is connected with a long rubber band. You give the engine some throttle, and the boat slowly winds up to speed, with the engines winding up along with it. The boat gets going too fast, so you have to throttle back. Then the engine loses power and the boat starts to fall off plane. You give it more gas and the engine winds up again. Sometimes, with careful adjustment, you can find a sweet spot where the engine will run at enough speed to maintain plane, but not so fast that the boat will tend to keep accelerating once on plane.

Throttle response like that tends to require a lot of attention from the helmsman. Even on boats with plenty of power, I have seen this sort of response from the engines. Finding the right setting is a bit of an experiment.

On Glen's boat I did not notice this tendency. You set the throttles, the boat quickly responded, and the engines settled down at the new speed. It may be due to the ample horsepower, 500 ponies on the transom, or it may be due to the four-stroke design.

I think the engine torque curve probably affects this behavior, too.

Glen is running the big four-blade REVOLLUTION4 propellers. They seemed glued to the water. I never noticed any sign of the blades losing grip.

It would have been interesting to hop off the Verado-powered boat and onto a similar one with, say, twin Yamaha 250-HP four-strokes without supercharging. That would make for a nice back-to-back comparison.

About two years ago I spent a similar amount of time out in a 240 OUTRAGE with twin 150-HP OptiMax engines. Based on these two trips, I would pick the Verado motors if given a choice. That preference is based primarily on their low noise and smooth handling.

posted 03-06-2006 01:16 PM ET (US)         

It's nice to have you participating on Continuouswave, and I am sorry that these "RUDE" trolls attempted, as they always do, to sidetrack Jim's thread on our experience with the usual sarcasm, personal inuendos, and general Verado/4-stroke bashing. As you know, this is not the only site they patrol. Generally, CW is a quality site with a huge majority of great boating people.