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Author Topic:   OUTRAGE 25: Re-Power: What Works Best

Smallfrye posted 09-08-2006 05:43 PM ET (US)
For those of you with 25-foot classic hulls: I will need to upgrade my outboards next year and want advice on the motors you have had success or failure with. I may move to a bracket and am considering a single [four-stroke]. The reliability seems to have improved to a point that the need for dual outboards may be outdated. Any advice is appreciated.
Buckda posted 09-08-2006 06:09 PM ET (US)
Smallfrye -
My advice is to stay with twins, if you already have them. 25' Whaler hulls seem to sell slower when they're powered with single engines. Although I'm not suggesting you're looking to sell...
Despite the fact that outboards are indeed more reliable today than the "good old days"...it hasn't lessened the number of bigger rigs I've seen with twin, triple and even quadruple engine sets.
I hope you agree. I know it's painful at first to buy twins...but I think you will regret it if you don't.
VI Jamie 22 posted 09-08-2006 08:55 PM ET (US)
I dropped on a pair of the new lightweight 150 ETECS on a 25 Whaler. They look good. I agree with Buckda, all new engines run well, soon the newness wears off and the good feeling of having twins takes over.
jimh posted 09-08-2006 09:11 PM ET (US)
The topic of twin engine versus single engine has been discussed previously at length in the PERFORMANCE discussion.
jimh posted 09-08-2006 09:40 PM ET (US)
Here is one of many good prior discussions on this topic:
Twin 150-HP: A Thing of the Past
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004301.html
Buckda posted 09-09-2006 12:02 AM ET (US)
While I think there are valid and well thought out arguments for both schools of thought, and thanks Jim for that great link to a previous discussion, it will probably boil down to several factors:
First, can you afford to repower your twin engine boat with twin engines? Incidentally, the initial cost savings from dropping to a single may be eaten by costs to patch the transom and gelcoat, as well as filling guage holes etc. Obviously a twin engine Whaler was a premium priced item when new, but subsequent owners may not be in a position to actually replace existing motors.
Next, how you use the boat will be significant. If you are offshore often, or boat in inclement weather or waters; cold, rain, rough, remote, etc... Then you should strongly consider twins again. In many locales, a tow boat policy and religious maintenance may tip the balance to a single.
Finally, your own tolerance for risk will play a role. If you are risk averse and boat where there is possibility for significant consequences for a failed motor, you should take a long and sober look at twins.
Maybe I'm just trying to justify my recent purchase, but if you can think back on your last three years of boating and can't come up with three times where you would have been more than inconvenienced by engine failure, then perhaps a single engine is right for you. Personally, I can think of three times since June of this year...so I am happy I have twins.
Dave
Smallfrye posted 09-19-2006 05:34 PM ET (US)
Is anyone using a 275- 300HP single on a 25 Outrage ? Please advise of performance and satisfaction.
Thanks,
DeeVee posted 09-19-2006 10:10 PM ET (US)
My brother in law has a 1990 Outrage 25 powered by a 1991 275 Mercury. He has had the boat about a year.
He likes the perforamnce, however, he would like to try a reprop, as the engine will not reach the recommended operating range at WOT. That being said, he can still get near 50 MPH with a less than half a tank of fuel and two people and light load.
I hope this helps,
Doug Vazquez
1989 Outrage 22
george nagy posted 09-20-2006 04:03 PM ET (US)
How about twin yamaha 115 4 strokes? If you have yamahas now you don't need controls. What do you have now? If you go single you may need to put on tabs. Pursuit offers these engines on thier 24-25 footers which are similar in size to your whaler and theyprovide performance numbers on line.
Smallfrye posted 09-21-2006 06:06 PM ET (US)
George, I feel that with a 4S motor, I should not need dual motors. The reliability of modern 4S's is similar to driving my car. Even 30 miles off shore, the tow insurance is much lower cost than the second motor. Probability is I will never need the tow.
I'm just not sure if one motor can provide the performance I hope for.
macfam posted 09-22-2006 08:20 PM ET (US)
Smallfrye,
I have a Yamaha 250 OX66 2-stroke on my Revenge 25 WT.
For where I boat, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard Sounds, with stiff SW winds, swift currents, and therefore, steep chop, average cruise is comfortable around 18-25 mph/16-22kts.
That's about 3600 rpm to 4100 rpm. So that's somewhere around the most economical speed.
At 4300-4400 rpm cruise is somewhere around 30mph/26kts.
She tops out around 42-43 mph/35+kts. All around, plenty of power for me.
If you want more, I think a 300 Suzuki, with their large diameter 16" prop would be ideal.
I would not hesitate with a Yamaha 250 4-stroke, for similar performance to what I have now.
Last weekend I drove a 32 Intrepid with twin 250
Verados. OMG......they are very impressive.
I think the 25 classic hull could take the weight OK with one. Not sure I would actually buy one for an older hull or not. They are HUGE.
If I was was buying a new Whaler........it would be Verado for sure.
MWH posted 09-24-2006 11:35 AM ET (US)
I suggest you take a close look at at twin Suzuki 140's (4-strokes). They are lightweight, have a great reputation, powerful, and not much more expensive then the big singles. Many of those big singles require premium fuel, and have a few bugs in them (keep in mind they are packing alot of horsepower in a small package and that will hurt reliability). The 300 Yamaha hpdi has had quite a few problems, and I believe they will be discontinuing the motor. The Verado 275 is a known gas guzzler above 3500rpms, and requires premium fuel. The 300 Suzuki will cost in the neighborhood of 18,000, not far off the cost of twin 140's. Good Luck in your choice.
hardknots posted 10-02-2006 09:23 PM ET (US)
As MWH have recommended you. I think my next engines will be the Suzuki 140 4 Stroke. They are lightweight and plenty of power for the 25. You should check this, continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/hiRangeRepower.html There is an excellent engine comparison table.
Good luck, Ricky
Royboy posted 10-03-2006 04:09 PM ET (US)
Don't confuse the draw of twins for offshore use being negated by the availability of towing. Being stranded is one thing, being sideways (and powerless) to big waves is another page entirely. The car analogy only works if it happens to be calm when your engine quits.
I suppose one could go with a big single in additon to a suitable kicker for stearage in heavy seas as the alternative to twins, but now you're back to two engines, controls, etc.
Roy
jimh posted 10-09-2006 08:47 AM ET (US)
See concurrent discussions on this same topic:
OUTRAGE 25: Re-power with Suzuki Four-Stroke
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004905.html
OUTRAGE 25 WD: Re-power with Twin 150-HP Four-Stroke
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004899.html
MWH posted 10-10-2006 10:16 PM ET (US)
Smallfrye,
Did you decide what power you maybe going with??
Smallfrye posted 10-12-2006 11:17 AM ET (US)
For now , I have decided not to decide. Discussions here and with knowledgable locals tells me that 4S motors will evolve significantly in the coming 18 months. Weight/ power ratios will improve for the mid range motors and more options will be avaialble.
Because of this I will wait until next winter to change from my current 150HP, 2S's.
Tates posted 10-18-2006 10:01 PM ET (US)
My 1989 25 Whaler Revenge is a great ride with twin 200 Optimaxes.
Very few boats in this size class out perform me in speed or ride. I would't go more power unless you are a speedster, I run @ WOT 42 mph in Pacific Qcean waters only a few times a year.I generally cruise @ 30 mph.The only other factor is weight, get the lighest engine in what ever power level you choose.
bsmotril posted 10-18-2006 10:46 PM ET (US)
If draft is an issue, twins will run about 6 inches shallower without the motor mounted deep on the hull centerline like a single.
BillS

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Author	Topic: OUTRAGE 25: Re-Power: What Works Best
Smallfrye	posted 09-08-2006 05:43 PM ET (US) For those of you with 25-foot classic hulls: I will need to upgrade my outboards next year and want advice on the motors you have had success or failure with. I may move to a bracket and am considering a single [four-stroke]. The reliability seems to have improved to a point that the need for dual outboards may be outdated. Any advice is appreciated.
Buckda	posted 09-08-2006 06:09 PM ET (US) Smallfrye - My advice is to stay with twins, if you already have them. 25' Whaler hulls seem to sell slower when they're powered with single engines. Although I'm not suggesting you're looking to sell... Despite the fact that outboards are indeed more reliable today than the "good old days"...it hasn't lessened the number of bigger rigs I've seen with twin, triple and even quadruple engine sets. I hope you agree. I know it's painful at first to buy twins...but I think you will regret it if you don't.
VI Jamie 22	posted 09-08-2006 08:55 PM ET (US) I dropped on a pair of the new lightweight 150 ETECS on a 25 Whaler. They look good. I agree with Buckda, all new engines run well, soon the newness wears off and the good feeling of having twins takes over.
jimh	posted 09-08-2006 09:11 PM ET (US) The topic of twin engine versus single engine has been discussed previously at length in the PERFORMANCE discussion.
jimh	posted 09-08-2006 09:40 PM ET (US) Here is one of many good prior discussions on this topic: Twin 150-HP: A Thing of the Past http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004301.html
Buckda	posted 09-09-2006 12:02 AM ET (US) While I think there are valid and well thought out arguments for both schools of thought, and thanks Jim for that great link to a previous discussion, it will probably boil down to several factors: First, can you afford to repower your twin engine boat with twin engines? Incidentally, the initial cost savings from dropping to a single may be eaten by costs to patch the transom and gelcoat, as well as filling guage holes etc. Obviously a twin engine Whaler was a premium priced item when new, but subsequent owners may not be in a position to actually replace existing motors. Next, how you use the boat will be significant. If you are offshore often, or boat in inclement weather or waters; cold, rain, rough, remote, etc... Then you should strongly consider twins again. In many locales, a tow boat policy and religious maintenance may tip the balance to a single. Finally, your own tolerance for risk will play a role. If you are risk averse and boat where there is possibility for significant consequences for a failed motor, you should take a long and sober look at twins. Maybe I'm just trying to justify my recent purchase, but if you can think back on your last three years of boating and can't come up with three times where you would have been more than inconvenienced by engine failure, then perhaps a single engine is right for you. Personally, I can think of three times since June of this year...so I am happy I have twins. Dave
Smallfrye	posted 09-19-2006 05:34 PM ET (US) Is anyone using a 275- 300HP single on a 25 Outrage ? Please advise of performance and satisfaction. Thanks,
DeeVee	posted 09-19-2006 10:10 PM ET (US) My brother in law has a 1990 Outrage 25 powered by a 1991 275 Mercury. He has had the boat about a year. He likes the perforamnce, however, he would like to try a reprop, as the engine will not reach the recommended operating range at WOT. That being said, he can still get near 50 MPH with a less than half a tank of fuel and two people and light load. I hope this helps, Doug Vazquez 1989 Outrage 22
george nagy	posted 09-20-2006 04:03 PM ET (US) How about twin yamaha 115 4 strokes? If you have yamahas now you don't need controls. What do you have now? If you go single you may need to put on tabs. Pursuit offers these engines on thier 24-25 footers which are similar in size to your whaler and theyprovide performance numbers on line.
Smallfrye	posted 09-21-2006 06:06 PM ET (US) George, I feel that with a 4S motor, I should not need dual motors. The reliability of modern 4S's is similar to driving my car. Even 30 miles off shore, the tow insurance is much lower cost than the second motor. Probability is I will never need the tow. I'm just not sure if one motor can provide the performance I hope for.
macfam	posted 09-22-2006 08:20 PM ET (US) Smallfrye, I have a Yamaha 250 OX66 2-stroke on my Revenge 25 WT. For where I boat, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard Sounds, with stiff SW winds, swift currents, and therefore, steep chop, average cruise is comfortable around 18-25 mph/16-22kts. That's about 3600 rpm to 4100 rpm. So that's somewhere around the most economical speed. At 4300-4400 rpm cruise is somewhere around 30mph/26kts. She tops out around 42-43 mph/35+kts. All around, plenty of power for me. If you want more, I think a 300 Suzuki, with their large diameter 16" prop would be ideal. I would not hesitate with a Yamaha 250 4-stroke, for similar performance to what I have now. Last weekend I drove a 32 Intrepid with twin 250 Verados. OMG......they are very impressive. I think the 25 classic hull could take the weight OK with one. Not sure I would actually buy one for an older hull or not. They are HUGE. If I was was buying a new Whaler........it would be Verado for sure.
MWH	posted 09-24-2006 11:35 AM ET (US) I suggest you take a close look at at twin Suzuki 140's (4-strokes). They are lightweight, have a great reputation, powerful, and not much more expensive then the big singles. Many of those big singles require premium fuel, and have a few bugs in them (keep in mind they are packing alot of horsepower in a small package and that will hurt reliability). The 300 Yamaha hpdi has had quite a few problems, and I believe they will be discontinuing the motor. The Verado 275 is a known gas guzzler above 3500rpms, and requires premium fuel. The 300 Suzuki will cost in the neighborhood of 18,000, not far off the cost of twin 140's. Good Luck in your choice.
hardknots	posted 10-02-2006 09:23 PM ET (US) As MWH have recommended you. I think my next engines will be the Suzuki 140 4 Stroke. They are lightweight and plenty of power for the 25. You should check this, continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/hiRangeRepower.html There is an excellent engine comparison table. Good luck, Ricky
Royboy	posted 10-03-2006 04:09 PM ET (US) Don't confuse the draw of twins for offshore use being negated by the availability of towing. Being stranded is one thing, being sideways (and powerless) to big waves is another page entirely. The car analogy only works if it happens to be calm when your engine quits. I suppose one could go with a big single in additon to a suitable kicker for stearage in heavy seas as the alternative to twins, but now you're back to two engines, controls, etc. Roy
jimh	posted 10-09-2006 08:47 AM ET (US) See concurrent discussions on this same topic: OUTRAGE 25: Re-power with Suzuki Four-Stroke http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004905.html OUTRAGE 25 WD: Re-power with Twin 150-HP Four-Stroke http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004899.html
MWH	posted 10-10-2006 10:16 PM ET (US) Smallfrye, Did you decide what power you maybe going with??
Smallfrye	posted 10-12-2006 11:17 AM ET (US) For now , I have decided not to decide. Discussions here and with knowledgable locals tells me that 4S motors will evolve significantly in the coming 18 months. Weight/ power ratios will improve for the mid range motors and more options will be avaialble. Because of this I will wait until next winter to change from my current 150HP, 2S's.
Tates	posted 10-18-2006 10:01 PM ET (US) My 1989 25 Whaler Revenge is a great ride with twin 200 Optimaxes. Very few boats in this size class out perform me in speed or ride. I would't go more power unless you are a speedster, I run @ WOT 42 mph in Pacific Qcean waters only a few times a year.I generally cruise @ 30 mph.The only other factor is weight, get the lighest engine in what ever power level you choose.
bsmotril	posted 10-18-2006 10:46 PM ET (US) If draft is an issue, twins will run about 6 inches shallower without the motor mounted deep on the hull centerline like a single. BillS