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Author Topic:   E-TEC Used For Trolling

towboater posted 01-09-2007 12:49 PM ET (US)
I am tossed between single or twins for my 1987 18-foot Boston Whaler CPD boat because I am not a kicker guy and this boat will be needed for substantial idling and trolling (for salmon, crab, and play) in fairly remote and potentially dangerous conditions on the Columbia River. Considering a single or twin E-TEC. [Give reports of] experience involving two or three hours of trolling with an E-TEC motor. mk
pineapplepig posted 01-09-2007 01:54 PM ET (US)
Yup, twin 200 small block Etecs. No worries, no smell, quiet although probably not quite as smooth as a 4s. Overall, I love them.
Buckda posted 01-09-2007 02:02 PM ET (US)
Yep also, twin 90 HP E-TEC motors on an 18' Outrage.
Sweet like candy. No smell, low noise, I troll with one engine on and the other off.
I also run with one engine off in the river until I reach the mouth to the lake - a 45 minute "troll" each way with no problems whatsoever.
Let me know if you need specifics.
Dave
andygere posted 01-09-2007 02:52 PM ET (US)
I tried salmon trolling with my E-TEC 200 this summer, just to see how it would do. No problems at all, and with less smoke and noise (as in no smoke or noise) than my 15 h.p. 2-stroke. This was a one time trial, your results may vary. Note that I use the XD 100 synthetic oil, which I understand reduces smoke and carbon build up to virtually nil.
towboater posted 01-09-2007 03:02 PM ET (US)
Twin 90's, nice. Bet it flies. OK, I'm sold.
Lots of questions...but first,
Buckda, seems like you published a E-TEC install thread a while back but I cant find the link and not much time today.
thx all. Gotta wear out, sell or trade a 150 max first. mk
Buckda posted 01-09-2007 03:29 PM ET (US)
Towboater:
It's fast enough. I'm not a speed demon or anything, and I'm sure I could eek a few more MPH out of the rig by simply tweaking the jackplate height and toodling around with some new propellers, however, this past year, I was too busy enjoying the boat and new engines to mess around too much. I used the boat nearly every weekend this past summer, with virtually no down time for messing around with anything else.
Details about the installation are here: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage81.html
Additional details about the first run with the motors are here: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004334.html
I'll see if I can dig up additional info for you.
re: Economy. Around the harbor, these engines are sipping gas. I was getting 0.0 and 0.1 GPH readings on my fuel flow meter early in the season before it stopped reading at all later in the spring. I eventually disconnected it (that's for one engine).
At WOT, they drink fuel like any two stroke, but even at cruise, I'm seeing an improvement - about 3.5 - 4 MPG on fairly smooth water.
Dave
towboater posted 01-10-2007 03:03 AM ET (US)
ah yes, I remember that thread well, nice job.
Pretty ovious you have 25" shafts, thus needing 5" jacks for twins. Seems this was pretty innovative at the time, congrats on your success...hope you dont mind if I tag along.
My 18 has a notched transom, I will have to fill it and add some plate to hang twins on jacks when the time comes but right now, first things first.
thx
michael k
Peter posted 01-10-2007 08:18 AM ET (US)
"At WOT, they drink fuel like any two stroke, but even at cruise, I'm seeing an improvement - about 3.5 - 4 MPG on fairly smooth water." -- Buckda
Dave -- Just to be clear, the E-TEC and any other DFI 2-strokes drink no more fuel at WOT than a naturally aspirated 4-stroke of comparable HP. A pair of Honda BF90s or Yamaha F90s at WOT on your transom would consume fuel at no lesser rate than your E-TECs -- about 8.5 GPH each.
Also, at trolling speeds, the DFI 2-strokes (except Yamaha's HPDIs) are just as thrifty as 4-strokes. The other advantage with the DFI 2-strokes over the carbureted or EFI 2-strokes is no plug fouling.
Tom W Clark posted 01-10-2007 09:45 AM ET (US)
The disadvantage of the E-TEC for trolling could be short spark plug life. The E-TEC fires multiple times for each power stroke at slow speeds. I think it is five sparks per power stroke. This helps ensure the combustion is complete. It also shortens spark plug life and spark plugs can be expensive.
I have spoken with one Evinrude DI owner who uses his kicker to navigate his boat out of his harbor (Gig Harbor, WA) because he feels it is more economical to do so and save the plugs.
BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-10-2007 10:19 AM ET (US)
I think the Etec is probably the best suited motor for "trolling",especially around here. ;o)
Buckda posted 01-10-2007 10:37 AM ET (US)
My engines are 20 inch shafts, not 25.
Peter - I guess my post could have been construed to imply that 4-strokes don't guzzle at WOT the same as 2-strokes....it was not my intention. Rather, I was comparing the fuel consumption to my previous motor, a classic 2-stroke.
Tom -
Agreed. I think that the one (and perhaps the only)drawback to the E-TEC motors (and possibly other DFI's like OptiMax?) for trolling and extended idle operation is the wear on spark plugs.
BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-10-2007 10:44 AM ET (US)
Are the Etec plugs as pricey as the Opti plugs were/are?I heard when the Opti's first came out spark plugs for them were in the $15-20 range EACH!I don't know if thats still the case,but if it is OUCH!
Peter posted 01-10-2007 10:47 AM ET (US)
It's my understanding that, unlike the Ficht which does consume plugs faster at idle speeds, the E-TEC does not consume plugs at the same rate. I further understand that plugs are a warranted item for the E-TEC and should last 300 hours, if not, get new ones for free and get the motor checked out for a cold running condition.
I run my 225 Ficht motors at a variety of speeds. About half my running time, according to the EMM running profile report, is under 2000 RPM where the multiple firing occurs. I get 120 hours out of my plugs which is longer than I used to get out of a set of NGKs on my Yamaha 225 EFI when they didn't foul. However, I do need to regap once but I never have fouling problems like I did with the Yamaha even when religiously using their RingFree product.
A kicker seems like an expensive solution to save plugs when plugs are $5 a piece. Not sure I'd plunk down $1500 to $2000 for a kicker just to save spending $30 for a V6 every 120 hours.
Sal DiMercurio posted 01-10-2007 11:47 AM ET (US)
My 200 hp FICHT used far less fuel at troll speed than my 1980 - 15 hp Johnson,.....3 hours & 20 minutes to burn 1 gallon of fuel at 2.8 mph.
Bucka, all engines burn 10% of their rated hp in gallons of fuel when running at WOT, not just 2 strokes,....200 hp 2 stroke or 4 stroke burns 20 gph at WOT.
I order my FICHT plugs [ same as e-tech plugs ] from Napa auto supply for $4.52 each compared to some dealers at $10.00 & $12.00 each.
A buddy of mine brought his boat [ outboard ] into a dealer for a plug change & it cost him $140 installed..........
$72.00 plus tx for the plugs & $60 something to index & install.
A tip on indexing, mark the plug wrench with a line on pain & aline the opening of the [plug electrode on that line so you know exactly which way your plug is pointing when indexing.
The opening of the electrode can face any direction except 180 degrees "AWAY" from the injector.
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 01-10-2007 11:50 AM ET (US)
Sure do need an edit button.
Thats line of paint on the plug wrench [ socket ], not line on pain.
Sal
mfrymier posted 01-10-2007 12:47 PM ET (US)
Kemmler:
that was hilarious, and I'm an etec guy....
Towboater: come down and drive my '18 with the e-tec 150, and go float/troll/idle around a bit. I didn't need twins, but Buckda's setup would be PERFECT for you where redundancy and maneuvering are both really important. However, If you want to save some $$ (and possibly a small amount of weight) you could go with twin 60 HP etecs. I think they would move your boat just fine with 120hp total (elaelep has a single 115 and does just fine). Ed's price on the 60HP etec is $5799 -- you would save approx $2500 vs. two 90HP's. I think the 75's don't make much sense as they are simply a detuned 90 and the price vs. the 90's isn't different enough.
towboater posted 01-10-2007 10:59 PM ET (US)
Matt, thx for the offer, tho, most likely I would bring my own 18 just to see if your OLD engine will out run your NEW engine.
hehe. you betcha, I would really like to explore the bay, maybe take a spin around Alcatraz & under the Bridge just to say I did. And same goes for you and Rob, those little fish you are trying to snag down there are twice as big by the time they get up here mid Aug, you have a boat.
Damn this thread. You guys are right, why am I messing around installing all new gear for a half life Merc that has all of the single eng riskS I need to avoid and I am gonna end up with a pair of new engines anyway.
Yes, money is an issue but,
Isnt that what financing is all about? sigh.
Was headed out the door to visit the Portland boat show but black ice is forcasted tonight. Im stayin put.
In addition to the multi fire plug issues, I wonder if the Etec 70 hp 3 cyl engines arent inherently rougher running engines for trolling than a 4 cyl?
Well, looks like I have time to study the options.
mk
Sal DiMercurio posted 01-11-2007 11:15 AM ET (US)
No such animal as a 70 hp e-tech,...try 75 hp.
The 75 e-tech trolls smooth as glass.
Sal
ratherwhalering posted 01-11-2007 02:29 PM ET (US)
Mike, next time I'm in your neck of the woods, you better believe I'm going to be bugging you for a fishin' trip, and more of that Elk sausage. Yum.
The three cylinder E-TEC engines (E90 and E75) are very, very smooth at idle and trolling speeds. I have trolled for 8 hours straight without a so much as a hiccup. It is smoother at all operating RPM than my old Johnson 90HP V-4. My E90 does have a "vibration" spot, between 900 and 1100 RPM, where it basically feels like a 3-cylinder. It's too insignificant for others to notice, and my mechanic explained that this is the point at which the exhaust stratification takes over.
I agree that low RPM use shortens the E-TEC's spark plug life. I probably have 40-50 hours of pure trolling, and my plugs made it to the 300 hour service (engine hours were shy of the 300 hours) looked fine, and only needed to be re-gapped (covered under warranty). I decided to replace them since they were already out, and paid an extra 10 bucks each. I figured why wait another 40 hours just to replace them again.
Peter posted 01-11-2007 02:58 PM ET (US)
DFI 2-strokes are so much smoother than the old carbureted 2-strokes at the slow speeds because they burn so much less fuel and the timing of the burn and where the burn takes place with the combustion chamber is much, much better. That old 90 HP V4 probably burned 1 to 1.5 GPH at idle whereas a new 90 E-TEC is burning only 0.1 to 0.2 GPH.
You can hear the difference in running quality when the respective motor types are run out of the water on ear muffs. The first time I ran my 225 Fichts on ear muffs I was amazed at just how quiet the exhaust coming out of the prop was and how smoothly the motors ran. None of that uneven "poppety pop pop pop" sound that you normally hear from a 2-stroke out of the water.
BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-11-2007 03:22 PM ET (US)
What if you love that "poppety pop pop pop" sound? ;o)
fourdfish posted 01-11-2007 03:37 PM ET (US)
I alternate trolling between my kicker and my 200hp ETEC so as
not to stack up hrs on the 200hp.
My ETEC starts at 450rpms and I troll it at around 600rpms at a speed of 2.3mph for salmon. At 500rpms the engine burns
only .33gph. The engine is going into it's 3rd year.
It is smooth, quiet and burns about .4gph at that speed.
Although I have not needed to change my plugs at over 200hrs,
I did purchase an extra set for $7 per plug. I guess that is
a little pricey but I am guessing it will be 3yrs or 300hrs which ever comes first, before I change them.
jimh posted 01-14-2007 01:38 PM ET (US)
The E-TEC seems to have particularly good fuel economy at idle speeds, and it can idle down to about 500-RPM. At this speed the engine is in a stratified charge combustion mode. It uses very little fuel and very little oil.
towboater posted 01-16-2007 04:15 PM ET (US)
Getting a taste of Michigan weather here lately.
Ive done some etec homework, Matt is right, 75 vrs 90...$2k for 30 more hp is substantial, especially for a work boat. 640 lbs not counting oil tanks. This CPD was abused pretty good on both stern quarters, now at the boat shop. Even with pro quality repair, Im not real comfortable with overpowering it (T90s). This could change.
anyway,
I ran across a HONDA promo stating their 50 is the lightest (50HP) 4 stroke on the market. 410 lb total and no oil tanks to mess with.

Crouches calc:
19 CPD is 1750 + 410 engs + 320 fuel + 600 lbs crew + 70 lbs gear = 3500 lbs, 100hp @ 18 hull factor = 30.4 mph.
Im cool with that.
Twin etec 90s weigh 230 lbs more + oil est 30 lbs = +260.
9 mph faster with 90s.
5.5 mph faster with 75s.
10 mph faster with a single black max that wont troll.
I ballparked a good portion of the math but the curve is probably relative.
Did I miss something?
Are there any disputes?
Buckda posted 01-16-2007 04:25 PM ET (US)
The only argument you'll get from me is on two fronts:
1. The Honda 50 HP won't get you on plane fully loaded, nor with several guys aboard, and doubtful in heavy seas, if ever encountered. Other than that, if the boat is reduced to just around the bay and never being opened up, then it's probably not a bad choice at all.
2. the oil tanks on the E-TEC are not messy and aren't much to mess with. I'm burning very little oil...in 150 hours, I've topped the oil tanks off perhaps 3 times..and starting with a dry tank on both motors, and ending with 1/2 tank (the current level) over 150 hours, I think I've burned about 3 or 4 gallons of oil between both motors.
This coming season, I will begin to take detailed records so that I can better quantify this.
It's not a big deal at all.
If you are thinking a single 50 Honda, also consider a single 90 E-TEC - at least that could get you on plane fromt time to time (at about 37 MPH) so you could go have some fun with the boat.
Just a thought.
Good luck - I know you'll make the decision that is right for you and your use!
Dave
Buckda posted 01-16-2007 04:26 PM ET (US)
Oh...and your E-TEC will write you love letters! (see Reference section).
Dave
towboater posted 01-16-2007 05:18 PM ET (US)
Dave, not sure if you are considering single or twin 50s on my 18, uhh, 18.5..er, 19.
Im talking about TWIN 50s making 30.5 (loaded to the gills) using Crouches Calc. & according to Crouch, is only 9 mph slower than your twin 90's. So yeah, Im checkin it out.
My guess is 100 hp will plane the boat but the speed will decrease substantially as weight is increased compared to 75s or more. Twin 50s would be kinda like having 2 huge kickers...hehe.
The only problem I have with oil tanks is that I plan to leave the boat in the water during the rainy seasons here in the NW. I learned the hard way (no harm done other than wet feetsies) that I have to remove the drain plug from the 17 (carbed 2 stroke) so the rain water wont fill the boat and risk the oil tank floating around or submerged...making pretty water. 4 strokes would eliminate that problem. It has been near all time record rain season here but I check it almost daily so oil tanks arent a big issue that would prevent me from buying etecs.
Do your etecs start very easy in really cold weather?
mk
BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-16-2007 05:27 PM ET (US)
Isn't the Etec oil tank under the cowling?
Buckda posted 01-16-2007 06:06 PM ET (US)
Got you Towboater....I did think you were talking about a SINGLE 50 HP Honda. Twins is much better - now I'm picking up what you're putting down.
The E-TEC oil tanks are on the powerhead, so the powerhead would have to be submerged to get the oil wet.
The coldest morning I started the E-TECs so far was in Northern Michigan. They had been sitting on the trailer for a week, and I towed the boat up through temps in the low 20's (Farenheit). I started the engines the next morning with temps around 35-40 degrees.
The port engine fired immediately, the starboard battery was a little weak from the cold and took a few revolutions to fire, but they both ran flawlessly after that, no restarts.
That is the joy of EFI/DFI. I'd imagine that modern 4-strokes with EFI are the same. On that note, if the Honda is carbed, you may take that into consideration. I don't know if this is a problem for carbed 4-strokes or not (starting in cold weather).

Dave
mfrymier posted 01-16-2007 06:09 PM ET (US)
The E-Tec oil system is under the cowling for the 90HP and under models (maybe the 115 too, not sure). For the 150+ Hp's you get an external oil tank.
I think the twin 60 HP ETEC's, or a single 150HP (choose your brand) are the way to go. The twin 60 ETEC's will give you 120 HP vs. 100, and still only weigh 480 lbs. My 150 weighs approx 430 lbs for reference....said another way, twin ETEC 60's weight the same if not less than [insert brand here] "clean" 150 + a reasonable kicker....
macdougall70 posted 01-16-2007 06:55 PM ET (US)
Towboater,
I have a 200 etec on my 18' outrage and it just sips fuel. I doubled my GPH from my old carbed 150. My outrage is a 1992 and weighs 600lbs more than yours so I opted for the 200, but even the 150hp you cant go wrong. It's hard on the pocket though. I troll a lot offshore here in Miami and my gas guage doesn't move at all while trolling.
Rob
alfred posted 01-16-2007 06:58 PM ET (US)
The oil for the 115 Etec is in an external tank, but interestingly it does not have to be right by the motor. In this exercise that I was just doing, the dealer said that I could get away with the oil tank in the consul if there was space.
fourdfish posted 01-16-2007 07:29 PM ET (US)
Towboater-Just wondering if these Honda 50s are the older carberated models. I had heard that the new fuel injected models were out????
towboater posted 01-20-2007 07:53 PM ET (US)
The honda's are carbed...which doesnt scare me much on the maint side. No time to compare Honda vrs etec prices yet.
Glass work is underway.
thx all.

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Author	Topic: E-TEC Used For Trolling
towboater	posted 01-09-2007 12:49 PM ET (US) I am tossed between single or twins for my 1987 18-foot Boston Whaler CPD boat because I am not a kicker guy and this boat will be needed for substantial idling and trolling (for salmon, crab, and play) in fairly remote and potentially dangerous conditions on the Columbia River. Considering a single or twin E-TEC. [Give reports of] experience involving two or three hours of trolling with an E-TEC motor. mk
pineapplepig	posted 01-09-2007 01:54 PM ET (US) Yup, twin 200 small block Etecs. No worries, no smell, quiet although probably not quite as smooth as a 4s. Overall, I love them.
Buckda	posted 01-09-2007 02:02 PM ET (US) Yep also, twin 90 HP E-TEC motors on an 18' Outrage. Sweet like candy. No smell, low noise, I troll with one engine on and the other off. I also run with one engine off in the river until I reach the mouth to the lake - a 45 minute "troll" each way with no problems whatsoever. Let me know if you need specifics. Dave
andygere	posted 01-09-2007 02:52 PM ET (US) I tried salmon trolling with my E-TEC 200 this summer, just to see how it would do. No problems at all, and with less smoke and noise (as in no smoke or noise) than my 15 h.p. 2-stroke. This was a one time trial, your results may vary. Note that I use the XD 100 synthetic oil, which I understand reduces smoke and carbon build up to virtually nil.
towboater	posted 01-09-2007 03:02 PM ET (US) Twin 90's, nice. Bet it flies. OK, I'm sold. Lots of questions...but first, Buckda, seems like you published a E-TEC install thread a while back but I cant find the link and not much time today. thx all. Gotta wear out, sell or trade a 150 max first. mk
Buckda	posted 01-09-2007 03:29 PM ET (US) Towboater: It's fast enough. I'm not a speed demon or anything, and I'm sure I could eek a few more MPH out of the rig by simply tweaking the jackplate height and toodling around with some new propellers, however, this past year, I was too busy enjoying the boat and new engines to mess around too much. I used the boat nearly every weekend this past summer, with virtually no down time for messing around with anything else. Details about the installation are here: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage81.html Additional details about the first run with the motors are here: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004334.html I'll see if I can dig up additional info for you. re: Economy. Around the harbor, these engines are sipping gas. I was getting 0.0 and 0.1 GPH readings on my fuel flow meter early in the season before it stopped reading at all later in the spring. I eventually disconnected it (that's for one engine). At WOT, they drink fuel like any two stroke, but even at cruise, I'm seeing an improvement - about 3.5 - 4 MPG on fairly smooth water. Dave
towboater	posted 01-10-2007 03:03 AM ET (US) ah yes, I remember that thread well, nice job. Pretty ovious you have 25" shafts, thus needing 5" jacks for twins. Seems this was pretty innovative at the time, congrats on your success...hope you dont mind if I tag along. My 18 has a notched transom, I will have to fill it and add some plate to hang twins on jacks when the time comes but right now, first things first. thx michael k
Peter	posted 01-10-2007 08:18 AM ET (US) "At WOT, they drink fuel like any two stroke, but even at cruise, I'm seeing an improvement - about 3.5 - 4 MPG on fairly smooth water." -- Buckda Dave -- Just to be clear, the E-TEC and any other DFI 2-strokes drink no more fuel at WOT than a naturally aspirated 4-stroke of comparable HP. A pair of Honda BF90s or Yamaha F90s at WOT on your transom would consume fuel at no lesser rate than your E-TECs -- about 8.5 GPH each. Also, at trolling speeds, the DFI 2-strokes (except Yamaha's HPDIs) are just as thrifty as 4-strokes. The other advantage with the DFI 2-strokes over the carbureted or EFI 2-strokes is no plug fouling.
Tom W Clark	posted 01-10-2007 09:45 AM ET (US) The disadvantage of the E-TEC for trolling could be short spark plug life. The E-TEC fires multiple times for each power stroke at slow speeds. I think it is five sparks per power stroke. This helps ensure the combustion is complete. It also shortens spark plug life and spark plugs can be expensive. I have spoken with one Evinrude DI owner who uses his kicker to navigate his boat out of his harbor (Gig Harbor, WA) because he feels it is more economical to do so and save the plugs.
BOB KEMMLER JR	posted 01-10-2007 10:19 AM ET (US) I think the Etec is probably the best suited motor for "trolling",especially around here. ;o)
Buckda	posted 01-10-2007 10:37 AM ET (US) My engines are 20 inch shafts, not 25. Peter - I guess my post could have been construed to imply that 4-strokes don't guzzle at WOT the same as 2-strokes....it was not my intention. Rather, I was comparing the fuel consumption to my previous motor, a classic 2-stroke. Tom - Agreed. I think that the one (and perhaps the only)drawback to the E-TEC motors (and possibly other DFI's like OptiMax?) for trolling and extended idle operation is the wear on spark plugs.
BOB KEMMLER JR	posted 01-10-2007 10:44 AM ET (US) Are the Etec plugs as pricey as the Opti plugs were/are?I heard when the Opti's first came out spark plugs for them were in the $15-20 range EACH!I don't know if thats still the case,but if it is OUCH!
Peter	posted 01-10-2007 10:47 AM ET (US) It's my understanding that, unlike the Ficht which does consume plugs faster at idle speeds, the E-TEC does not consume plugs at the same rate. I further understand that plugs are a warranted item for the E-TEC and should last 300 hours, if not, get new ones for free and get the motor checked out for a cold running condition. I run my 225 Ficht motors at a variety of speeds. About half my running time, according to the EMM running profile report, is under 2000 RPM where the multiple firing occurs. I get 120 hours out of my plugs which is longer than I used to get out of a set of NGKs on my Yamaha 225 EFI when they didn't foul. However, I do need to regap once but I never have fouling problems like I did with the Yamaha even when religiously using their RingFree product. A kicker seems like an expensive solution to save plugs when plugs are $5 a piece. Not sure I'd plunk down $1500 to $2000 for a kicker just to save spending $30 for a V6 every 120 hours.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 01-10-2007 11:47 AM ET (US) My 200 hp FICHT used far less fuel at troll speed than my 1980 - 15 hp Johnson,.....3 hours & 20 minutes to burn 1 gallon of fuel at 2.8 mph. Bucka, all engines burn 10% of their rated hp in gallons of fuel when running at WOT, not just 2 strokes,....200 hp 2 stroke or 4 stroke burns 20 gph at WOT. I order my FICHT plugs [ same as e-tech plugs ] from Napa auto supply for $4.52 each compared to some dealers at $10.00 & $12.00 each. A buddy of mine brought his boat [ outboard ] into a dealer for a plug change & it cost him $140 installed.......... $72.00 plus tx for the plugs & $60 something to index & install. A tip on indexing, mark the plug wrench with a line on pain & aline the opening of the [plug electrode on that line so you know exactly which way your plug is pointing when indexing. The opening of the electrode can face any direction except 180 degrees "AWAY" from the injector. Sal
Sal DiMercurio	posted 01-10-2007 11:50 AM ET (US) Sure do need an edit button. Thats line of paint on the plug wrench [ socket ], not line on pain. Sal
mfrymier	posted 01-10-2007 12:47 PM ET (US) Kemmler: that was hilarious, and I'm an etec guy.... Towboater: come down and drive my '18 with the e-tec 150, and go float/troll/idle around a bit. I didn't need twins, but Buckda's setup would be PERFECT for you where redundancy and maneuvering are both really important. However, If you want to save some $$ (and possibly a small amount of weight) you could go with twin 60 HP etecs. I think they would move your boat just fine with 120hp total (elaelep has a single 115 and does just fine). Ed's price on the 60HP etec is $5799 -- you would save approx $2500 vs. two 90HP's. I think the 75's don't make much sense as they are simply a detuned 90 and the price vs. the 90's isn't different enough.
towboater	posted 01-10-2007 10:59 PM ET (US) Matt, thx for the offer, tho, most likely I would bring my own 18 just to see if your OLD engine will out run your NEW engine. hehe. you betcha, I would really like to explore the bay, maybe take a spin around Alcatraz & under the Bridge just to say I did. And same goes for you and Rob, those little fish you are trying to snag down there are twice as big by the time they get up here mid Aug, you have a boat. Damn this thread. You guys are right, why am I messing around installing all new gear for a half life Merc that has all of the single eng riskS I need to avoid and I am gonna end up with a pair of new engines anyway. Yes, money is an issue but, Isnt that what financing is all about? sigh. Was headed out the door to visit the Portland boat show but black ice is forcasted tonight. Im stayin put. In addition to the multi fire plug issues, I wonder if the Etec 70 hp 3 cyl engines arent inherently rougher running engines for trolling than a 4 cyl? Well, looks like I have time to study the options. mk
Sal DiMercurio	posted 01-11-2007 11:15 AM ET (US) No such animal as a 70 hp e-tech,...try 75 hp. The 75 e-tech trolls smooth as glass. Sal
ratherwhalering	posted 01-11-2007 02:29 PM ET (US) Mike, next time I'm in your neck of the woods, you better believe I'm going to be bugging you for a fishin' trip, and more of that Elk sausage. Yum. The three cylinder E-TEC engines (E90 and E75) are very, very smooth at idle and trolling speeds. I have trolled for 8 hours straight without a so much as a hiccup. It is smoother at all operating RPM than my old Johnson 90HP V-4. My E90 does have a "vibration" spot, between 900 and 1100 RPM, where it basically feels like a 3-cylinder. It's too insignificant for others to notice, and my mechanic explained that this is the point at which the exhaust stratification takes over. I agree that low RPM use shortens the E-TEC's spark plug life. I probably have 40-50 hours of pure trolling, and my plugs made it to the 300 hour service (engine hours were shy of the 300 hours) looked fine, and only needed to be re-gapped (covered under warranty). I decided to replace them since they were already out, and paid an extra 10 bucks each. I figured why wait another 40 hours just to replace them again.
Peter	posted 01-11-2007 02:58 PM ET (US) DFI 2-strokes are so much smoother than the old carbureted 2-strokes at the slow speeds because they burn so much less fuel and the timing of the burn and where the burn takes place with the combustion chamber is much, much better. That old 90 HP V4 probably burned 1 to 1.5 GPH at idle whereas a new 90 E-TEC is burning only 0.1 to 0.2 GPH. You can hear the difference in running quality when the respective motor types are run out of the water on ear muffs. The first time I ran my 225 Fichts on ear muffs I was amazed at just how quiet the exhaust coming out of the prop was and how smoothly the motors ran. None of that uneven "poppety pop pop pop" sound that you normally hear from a 2-stroke out of the water.
BOB KEMMLER JR	posted 01-11-2007 03:22 PM ET (US) What if you love that "poppety pop pop pop" sound? ;o)
fourdfish	posted 01-11-2007 03:37 PM ET (US) I alternate trolling between my kicker and my 200hp ETEC so as not to stack up hrs on the 200hp. My ETEC starts at 450rpms and I troll it at around 600rpms at a speed of 2.3mph for salmon. At 500rpms the engine burns only .33gph. The engine is going into it's 3rd year. It is smooth, quiet and burns about .4gph at that speed. Although I have not needed to change my plugs at over 200hrs, I did purchase an extra set for $7 per plug. I guess that is a little pricey but I am guessing it will be 3yrs or 300hrs which ever comes first, before I change them.
jimh	posted 01-14-2007 01:38 PM ET (US) The E-TEC seems to have particularly good fuel economy at idle speeds, and it can idle down to about 500-RPM. At this speed the engine is in a stratified charge combustion mode. It uses very little fuel and very little oil.
towboater	posted 01-16-2007 04:15 PM ET (US) Getting a taste of Michigan weather here lately. Ive done some etec homework, Matt is right, 75 vrs 90...$2k for 30 more hp is substantial, especially for a work boat. 640 lbs not counting oil tanks. This CPD was abused pretty good on both stern quarters, now at the boat shop. Even with pro quality repair, Im not real comfortable with overpowering it (T90s). This could change. anyway, I ran across a HONDA promo stating their 50 is the lightest (50HP) 4 stroke on the market. 410 lb total and no oil tanks to mess with. Crouches calc: 19 CPD is 1750 + 410 engs + 320 fuel + 600 lbs crew + 70 lbs gear = 3500 lbs, 100hp @ 18 hull factor = 30.4 mph. Im cool with that. Twin etec 90s weigh 230 lbs more + oil est 30 lbs = +260. 9 mph faster with 90s. 5.5 mph faster with 75s. 10 mph faster with a single black max that wont troll. I ballparked a good portion of the math but the curve is probably relative. Did I miss something? Are there any disputes?
Buckda	posted 01-16-2007 04:25 PM ET (US) The only argument you'll get from me is on two fronts: 1. The Honda 50 HP won't get you on plane fully loaded, nor with several guys aboard, and doubtful in heavy seas, if ever encountered. Other than that, if the boat is reduced to just around the bay and never being opened up, then it's probably not a bad choice at all. 2. the oil tanks on the E-TEC are not messy and aren't much to mess with. I'm burning very little oil...in 150 hours, I've topped the oil tanks off perhaps 3 times..and starting with a dry tank on both motors, and ending with 1/2 tank (the current level) over 150 hours, I think I've burned about 3 or 4 gallons of oil between both motors. This coming season, I will begin to take detailed records so that I can better quantify this. It's not a big deal at all. If you are thinking a single 50 Honda, also consider a single 90 E-TEC - at least that could get you on plane fromt time to time (at about 37 MPH) so you could go have some fun with the boat. Just a thought. Good luck - I know you'll make the decision that is right for you and your use! Dave
Buckda	posted 01-16-2007 04:26 PM ET (US) Oh...and your E-TEC will write you love letters! (see Reference section). Dave
towboater	posted 01-16-2007 05:18 PM ET (US) Dave, not sure if you are considering single or twin 50s on my 18, uhh, 18.5..er, 19. Im talking about TWIN 50s making 30.5 (loaded to the gills) using Crouches Calc. & according to Crouch, is only 9 mph slower than your twin 90's. So yeah, Im checkin it out. My guess is 100 hp will plane the boat but the speed will decrease substantially as weight is increased compared to 75s or more. Twin 50s would be kinda like having 2 huge kickers...hehe. The only problem I have with oil tanks is that I plan to leave the boat in the water during the rainy seasons here in the NW. I learned the hard way (no harm done other than wet feetsies) that I have to remove the drain plug from the 17 (carbed 2 stroke) so the rain water wont fill the boat and risk the oil tank floating around or submerged...making pretty water. 4 strokes would eliminate that problem. It has been near all time record rain season here but I check it almost daily so oil tanks arent a big issue that would prevent me from buying etecs. Do your etecs start very easy in really cold weather? mk
BOB KEMMLER JR	posted 01-16-2007 05:27 PM ET (US) Isn't the Etec oil tank under the cowling?
Buckda	posted 01-16-2007 06:06 PM ET (US) Got you Towboater....I did think you were talking about a SINGLE 50 HP Honda. Twins is much better - now I'm picking up what you're putting down. The E-TEC oil tanks are on the powerhead, so the powerhead would have to be submerged to get the oil wet. The coldest morning I started the E-TECs so far was in Northern Michigan. They had been sitting on the trailer for a week, and I towed the boat up through temps in the low 20's (Farenheit). I started the engines the next morning with temps around 35-40 degrees. The port engine fired immediately, the starboard battery was a little weak from the cold and took a few revolutions to fire, but they both ran flawlessly after that, no restarts. That is the joy of EFI/DFI. I'd imagine that modern 4-strokes with EFI are the same. On that note, if the Honda is carbed, you may take that into consideration. I don't know if this is a problem for carbed 4-strokes or not (starting in cold weather). Dave
mfrymier	posted 01-16-2007 06:09 PM ET (US) The E-Tec oil system is under the cowling for the 90HP and under models (maybe the 115 too, not sure). For the 150+ Hp's you get an external oil tank. I think the twin 60 HP ETEC's, or a single 150HP (choose your brand) are the way to go. The twin 60 ETEC's will give you 120 HP vs. 100, and still only weigh 480 lbs. My 150 weighs approx 430 lbs for reference....said another way, twin ETEC 60's weight the same if not less than [insert brand here] "clean" 150 + a reasonable kicker....
macdougall70	posted 01-16-2007 06:55 PM ET (US) Towboater, I have a 200 etec on my 18' outrage and it just sips fuel. I doubled my GPH from my old carbed 150. My outrage is a 1992 and weighs 600lbs more than yours so I opted for the 200, but even the 150hp you cant go wrong. It's hard on the pocket though. I troll a lot offshore here in Miami and my gas guage doesn't move at all while trolling. Rob
alfred	posted 01-16-2007 06:58 PM ET (US) The oil for the 115 Etec is in an external tank, but interestingly it does not have to be right by the motor. In this exercise that I was just doing, the dealer said that I could get away with the oil tank in the consul if there was space.
fourdfish	posted 01-16-2007 07:29 PM ET (US) Towboater-Just wondering if these Honda 50s are the older carberated models. I had heard that the new fuel injected models were out????
towboater	posted 01-20-2007 07:53 PM ET (US) The honda's are carbed...which doesnt scare me much on the maint side. No time to compare Honda vrs etec prices yet. Glass work is underway. thx all.