190 Outrage, 150 Verado: Propeller Ventilation

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Author Topic:   190 Outrage, 150 Verado: Propeller Ventilation

boatdryver posted 12-14-2007 06:44 PM ET (US)
Today I tested on glassy water an unsold 2007 Boston Whaler 190 OUTRAGE with full fuel, two men, no gear, and a Verado 150 turning a MIRAGEplus 17-inch pitch propeller as supplied by Boston Whaler. I was surprised that with trim tabs full up or half down there was major propeller ventilation. This occurred during the first phase of acceleration, then again when the boat was up on plane and just starting to accelerate more, and not in what I'd call the mid phase of acceleration from a standing stop.
Then, as I was coming back off the power to drop engine speed when up on plane at the completion of acceleration from standing stop, [the propeller ventilated] again. When I tried a slow or medium acceleration from a standing stop the bow rise was dramatic. Maybe the deadrise in the hull was spoiling flow to the propeller. Slamming the throttle down for hole shot gave much less ventilation.
Up on plane the performance seemed superb. Nice quiet cruise at 3,600-RPM with just a little bow-down trim. Smartcraft instrumentation said 5.5-GPH. Paddle wheel said 23-MPH. Hydraulic non-power steering seemed stiff.
I did not check WOT RPM as the motor was new, and I forget to check how high the motor was mounted.
The sales rep said he had noticed [problems with propeller ventilation] on a Dauntless 22 and Verado 200, and attributes [propeller ventilation] to the torque of the supercharged motors.
Anyone else noticed this?
JimL

Peter posted 12-14-2007 07:02 PM ET (US)
What you describe in the first phase of acceleration is a characteristic of the MIRAGEplus propeller. I experience the same thing on my 18 Outrage, Johnson 150, 15 1/2 x 17 MIRAGEplus propeller.
My experience is once the MIRAGEplus ventilates it seems like it has a terrible time getting the air off the blades. As a result, the Mirage is a lousy rough water propeller. It's a fine propeller for mostly flat water.
glen e posted 12-14-2007 08:40 PM ET (US)
boatdryver -
PLEASE stop listening to that salesman that has told you so many bad things about what he sells...this is strike 3..listen to peter and others here..which I'm sure you are...can't diagnose from here.... but maybe engine height/mounting is a problem too....
boatdryver posted 12-14-2007 11:53 PM ET (US)
no worries glen e.
I was very impressed with the Verado. I know the ventilation problem can be worked out. I'm just looking for comments from owners. I think things like this are educational.
JimL
imko posted 12-15-2007 04:51 AM ET (US)
I have the same problem with the Outrage 190 / 150 Verado.
I do not have trim tabs!
The salesman also claims it's the torque of the supercharged 150 Verado.
The salesman said the Enertia 18" will solve the problem, but in the Netherlands this prop is almost 900 Euro (about 1200 USD) Has anyone tried this prop on this combo?
See also:
190 OUTRAGE, VERADO 150: Will ENERTIA Propeller Improve Speed
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005616.html
Best regards,
Imko
highanddry posted 12-15-2007 11:48 AM ET (US)
I have never seen the torque curve but I bet the OptiMax 150 has more torque and BTW ours does a similar thing. I went to the Rev 4 and it was much reduced. Frankly, I think the engine needs to go down a hole.
Perry posted 12-15-2007 12:06 PM ET (US)
You guys need to stop listning to salesmen.
Highanddry, the Optimax is mounted two holes up on the 190 Outrage but I believe the Verado is only mounted one hole up.
I agree that a different prop will greatly reduce the ventilation problem.
Tom W Clark posted 12-15-2007 12:30 PM ET (US)
As is always the case, finding the right propeller(s) is dependent on may different factors not just the prop itself. Every boat/motor combination is a little different and as I try to emphasize, experimentation is always the best way to find the right prop for your needs.
Jim L, I would not be put off by your experience with that boat motor combination. The Mercury MIRAGEplus is an excellent propeller. If it is ventilating on the Outrage 190 it may because the motor mounting height is a bit to high, or it may be that the hull is not the right application for that prop.
I run the MIRAGEplus on my own boat, a twin engine Revenge 25 and they have outperformed every other propeller I have tried. They grip far better than the MIRAGE's, the aluminum BlackMax's (which are not bad props themselves), the Stiletto Advantage IIs and the Mercury High Five's (which were utterly terrible for grip.) But this is on a much larger, twin engine craft. The Outrage 190 would seem to have different needs.
Imko, I have not tried the Enertia on an Outrage 190 but I have run them on my Revenge. I like these props and one thing they do well is grip. Furthermore, when they do break loose it is a very gradual process not one where they suddenly start to suck air and then it is very difficult to regain traction.
On my boat, the 19" Enertia will allow an additional 250 RPM at WOT as compared to the 19" pitch MIRAGEplus. How the Enertia would perform on the Outrage 190 I am not sure but it certainly would appear to be a good application for it.
Any time a boat is suffering from ventilation problems, the Mercury Revolution 4 comes to mind because it does grip the water very well. It might be a little large for the Verado 150, but who knows? Try it and find out.
The Mercury VenSura (aka Offshore) would be worth trying as well. When going from a 17" MIRAGEplus to a VenSura, choose the 19" pitch model.
To anybody contemplating experimenting with propellers on their Outrage 190 I suggest first trying the propellers known to tolerate high mounting positions (Rev 4, Enertia) *before* experimenting with lower the motor mounting height. It may well be that the Verado is too high for the MIRAGEplus but it just right for the Revolution 4.
highanddry posted 12-15-2007 12:43 PM ET (US)
Perry, without a measure of the mounting holes to the cavitation plate and to the center line of the prop and to the apex of the hull V, I do not know if the Verado is higher or lower than my OptiMax, I don't think the holes are the same between the two engines--are they? My comment is an observation--I think they have the OptiMax and now the Verado mounted slightly high on that hull. Cure is trim tabs, hydrualic jack plate, Rev 4 or drop the engine lower. The only one of those four possible solutions I have tried is the Rev 4. It will still ventilate therefore my reinforced belief the engine is to high--however--it ventilates much less and hooks up more solid. There is also much more acceleration, much less bow rise -- actually bow rise is still there but the stern lifts,noticeably, maintaining a more level acceleration attitude.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/DSCF0032.jpg
sosmerc posted 12-15-2007 07:54 PM ET (US)
Is it possible that someone removed the PVS plugs? For those that may not be aware, Merc offers PVS plugs with either no holes, or very small holes to very large holes such that you can experiment and virtually "tune" your Mercury PVS-equipped prop to your engine height, and hull application. On PVS equipped props this can make a heck of alot of difference as to how the prop works.
boatdryver posted 12-15-2007 09:16 PM ET (US)
this was a Mirage Plus prop. I don't think it had holes
JimL
sitotis posted 12-15-2007 09:48 PM ET (US)
The Mirage Plus does have the PVS holes...
http://sites.mercurymarine.com/portal/page?_pageid=126,51873,126_51887& _dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
highanddry posted 12-16-2007 12:06 AM ET (US)
My Mirage Plus certainly does have holes with plugs in them, and it would ventilate with the plugs as does the Rev4, but of course far more less.
jimh posted 12-16-2007 12:39 AM ET (US)
My experience with the MIRAGEplus with high mounting height is somewhat similar. My description of it was:
"This propeller showed quite a sensitivity toward ventilation and had to be run with the engine trimmed quite low. "
Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004799.html
As a result, I generally only run the MIRAGEplus when I anticipate being in fairly calm water, such as on inland lakes or rivers. However, the MIRAGEplus does give very good fuel economy at cruise.
Tom W Clark posted 12-16-2007 02:40 AM ET (US)
The MIRAGEplus's with the A45 suffix in their part numbers do not have the PVS vent holes. A46 suffix MIRAGEplus's do.
Any PVS equipped Mercury propeller may also be fitted with solid vent plugs rendering the same as a non-PVS equipped propeller.
imko posted 12-16-2007 07:56 AM ET (US)
Tom, the Verado 150 is fitted with solid vent plugs om my Outrage 190.

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Author	Topic: 190 Outrage, 150 Verado: Propeller Ventilation
boatdryver	posted 12-14-2007 06:44 PM ET (US) Today I tested on glassy water an unsold 2007 Boston Whaler 190 OUTRAGE with full fuel, two men, no gear, and a Verado 150 turning a MIRAGEplus 17-inch pitch propeller as supplied by Boston Whaler. I was surprised that with trim tabs full up or half down there was major propeller ventilation. This occurred during the first phase of acceleration, then again when the boat was up on plane and just starting to accelerate more, and not in what I'd call the mid phase of acceleration from a standing stop. Then, as I was coming back off the power to drop engine speed when up on plane at the completion of acceleration from standing stop, [the propeller ventilated] again. When I tried a slow or medium acceleration from a standing stop the bow rise was dramatic. Maybe the deadrise in the hull was spoiling flow to the propeller. Slamming the throttle down for hole shot gave much less ventilation. Up on plane the performance seemed superb. Nice quiet cruise at 3,600-RPM with just a little bow-down trim. Smartcraft instrumentation said 5.5-GPH. Paddle wheel said 23-MPH. Hydraulic non-power steering seemed stiff. I did not check WOT RPM as the motor was new, and I forget to check how high the motor was mounted. The sales rep said he had noticed [problems with propeller ventilation] on a Dauntless 22 and Verado 200, and attributes [propeller ventilation] to the torque of the supercharged motors. Anyone else noticed this? JimL
Peter	posted 12-14-2007 07:02 PM ET (US) What you describe in the first phase of acceleration is a characteristic of the MIRAGEplus propeller. I experience the same thing on my 18 Outrage, Johnson 150, 15 1/2 x 17 MIRAGEplus propeller. My experience is once the MIRAGEplus ventilates it seems like it has a terrible time getting the air off the blades. As a result, the Mirage is a lousy rough water propeller. It's a fine propeller for mostly flat water.
glen e	posted 12-14-2007 08:40 PM ET (US) boatdryver - PLEASE stop listening to that salesman that has told you so many bad things about what he sells...this is strike 3..listen to peter and others here..which I'm sure you are...can't diagnose from here.... but maybe engine height/mounting is a problem too....
boatdryver	posted 12-14-2007 11:53 PM ET (US) no worries glen e. I was very impressed with the Verado. I know the ventilation problem can be worked out. I'm just looking for comments from owners. I think things like this are educational. JimL
imko	posted 12-15-2007 04:51 AM ET (US) I have the same problem with the Outrage 190 / 150 Verado. I do not have trim tabs! The salesman also claims it's the torque of the supercharged 150 Verado. The salesman said the Enertia 18" will solve the problem, but in the Netherlands this prop is almost 900 Euro (about 1200 USD) Has anyone tried this prop on this combo? See also: 190 OUTRAGE, VERADO 150: Will ENERTIA Propeller Improve Speed http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005616.html Best regards, Imko
highanddry	posted 12-15-2007 11:48 AM ET (US) I have never seen the torque curve but I bet the OptiMax 150 has more torque and BTW ours does a similar thing. I went to the Rev 4 and it was much reduced. Frankly, I think the engine needs to go down a hole.
Perry	posted 12-15-2007 12:06 PM ET (US) You guys need to stop listning to salesmen. Highanddry, the Optimax is mounted two holes up on the 190 Outrage but I believe the Verado is only mounted one hole up. I agree that a different prop will greatly reduce the ventilation problem.
Tom W Clark	posted 12-15-2007 12:30 PM ET (US) As is always the case, finding the right propeller(s) is dependent on may different factors not just the prop itself. Every boat/motor combination is a little different and as I try to emphasize, experimentation is always the best way to find the right prop for your needs. Jim L, I would not be put off by your experience with that boat motor combination. The Mercury MIRAGEplus is an excellent propeller. If it is ventilating on the Outrage 190 it may because the motor mounting height is a bit to high, or it may be that the hull is not the right application for that prop. I run the MIRAGEplus on my own boat, a twin engine Revenge 25 and they have outperformed every other propeller I have tried. They grip far better than the MIRAGE's, the aluminum BlackMax's (which are not bad props themselves), the Stiletto Advantage IIs and the Mercury High Five's (which were utterly terrible for grip.) But this is on a much larger, twin engine craft. The Outrage 190 would seem to have different needs. Imko, I have not tried the Enertia on an Outrage 190 but I have run them on my Revenge. I like these props and one thing they do well is grip. Furthermore, when they do break loose it is a very gradual process not one where they suddenly start to suck air and then it is very difficult to regain traction. On my boat, the 19" Enertia will allow an additional 250 RPM at WOT as compared to the 19" pitch MIRAGEplus. How the Enertia would perform on the Outrage 190 I am not sure but it certainly would appear to be a good application for it. Any time a boat is suffering from ventilation problems, the Mercury Revolution 4 comes to mind because it does grip the water very well. It might be a little large for the Verado 150, but who knows? Try it and find out. The Mercury VenSura (aka Offshore) would be worth trying as well. When going from a 17" MIRAGEplus to a VenSura, choose the 19" pitch model. To anybody contemplating experimenting with propellers on their Outrage 190 I suggest first trying the propellers known to tolerate high mounting positions (Rev 4, Enertia) before experimenting with lower the motor mounting height. It may well be that the Verado is too high for the MIRAGEplus but it just right for the Revolution 4.
highanddry	posted 12-15-2007 12:43 PM ET (US) Perry, without a measure of the mounting holes to the cavitation plate and to the center line of the prop and to the apex of the hull V, I do not know if the Verado is higher or lower than my OptiMax, I don't think the holes are the same between the two engines--are they? My comment is an observation--I think they have the OptiMax and now the Verado mounted slightly high on that hull. Cure is trim tabs, hydrualic jack plate, Rev 4 or drop the engine lower. The only one of those four possible solutions I have tried is the Rev 4. It will still ventilate therefore my reinforced belief the engine is to high--however--it ventilates much less and hooks up more solid. There is also much more acceleration, much less bow rise -- actually bow rise is still there but the stern lifts,noticeably, maintaining a more level acceleration attitude. http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/DSCF0032.jpg
sosmerc	posted 12-15-2007 07:54 PM ET (US) Is it possible that someone removed the PVS plugs? For those that may not be aware, Merc offers PVS plugs with either no holes, or very small holes to very large holes such that you can experiment and virtually "tune" your Mercury PVS-equipped prop to your engine height, and hull application. On PVS equipped props this can make a heck of alot of difference as to how the prop works.
boatdryver	posted 12-15-2007 09:16 PM ET (US) this was a Mirage Plus prop. I don't think it had holes JimL
sitotis	posted 12-15-2007 09:48 PM ET (US) The Mirage Plus does have the PVS holes... http://sites.mercurymarine.com/portal/page?_pageid=126,51873,126_51887& _dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
highanddry	posted 12-16-2007 12:06 AM ET (US) My Mirage Plus certainly does have holes with plugs in them, and it would ventilate with the plugs as does the Rev4, but of course far more less.
jimh	posted 12-16-2007 12:39 AM ET (US) My experience with the MIRAGEplus with high mounting height is somewhat similar. My description of it was: "This propeller showed quite a sensitivity toward ventilation and had to be run with the engine trimmed quite low. " Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004799.html As a result, I generally only run the MIRAGEplus when I anticipate being in fairly calm water, such as on inland lakes or rivers. However, the MIRAGEplus does give very good fuel economy at cruise.
Tom W Clark	posted 12-16-2007 02:40 AM ET (US) The MIRAGEplus's with the A45 suffix in their part numbers do not have the PVS vent holes. A46 suffix MIRAGEplus's do. Any PVS equipped Mercury propeller may also be fitted with solid vent plugs rendering the same as a non-PVS equipped propeller.
imko	posted 12-16-2007 07:56 AM ET (US) Tom, the Verado 150 is fitted with solid vent plugs om my Outrage 190.