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  1994 OUTRAGE 24 Lacks Stability In Wind and Chop

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Author Topic:   1994 OUTRAGE 24 Lacks Stability In Wind and Chop
matt13moto posted 05-12-2015 01:17 AM ET (US)   Profile for matt13moto   Send Email to matt13moto  
I am a relatively new owner of a 1994 Outrage 24 with twin Mercury 150-HP BlackMax two-cycle engines. I have owned a Boston Whaler Montauk for a long time and love it. I decided to step up to a larger model for ocean fishing in Washington and British Columbia. I have found this boat to be unstable in windy and extremely choppy conditions. I am wondering if anyone has this experience? Everyone has told me to put one trim tab down and drive with a list. I tried that, and it helps, but most of the passengers are terrified at how much it leans over. Is this normal? This is my first real offshore-style fishing boat and am used to a Montauk that you just kind of point it where you wanna go; depending on how much of a beating you can take is how fast you go. Thanks for any feed back.
msirof2001 posted 05-12-2015 01:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for msirof2001  Send Email to msirof2001     
I have its little brother, the 1995 Outrage 21. I ogled at both the 24 and 21 for 1.5 years before buying the 21. I really wanted the 24 but could afford the 21. Notably on the 24, it is much deeper than the 21. It is significant when viewing both next to eachother. The 24 has a center console head and still manages to have a 195 gallon fuel tank. The 24's fish holds are much deeper. Yet, the beam is still 8'6". So yes, it has a higher center of gravity. How much fuel are you carrying? I know a fill-up is probably close to $700 but I think it may ride better running heavy. Also, it may just be a matter of getting used to the hull and you developing a plan of attack given the conditions. In my 21, I have experienced steep chop coming perpendicular to the boat, and I have adapted my way to be as stable as possible. It comes with time.
Jefecinco posted 05-12-2015 09:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Generally, the deeper the V shape of the hull the more tender the vessel.

I don't know but suspect that twin engines would contribute to tenderness as they may raise the center of gravity while placing the weight toward the outer edges.

I once owned a deep-V SeaRay and I was shocked by how tender it was.

Moving up from a much smaller semi-V (almost skiff) bottom boat to a much larger deeper-V twin engine boat would make a huge difference. Once you become used to the very different sea keeping characteristics of the new boat I'm sure you will love it.

I did find that trim tabs on the deep-V hull were a great help for stabilizing the side to side motion while on plane.

Butch

Tom W Clark posted 05-12-2015 10:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
The 1994 Outrage 24 is a remarkably stable and smooth riding hull; I have spent time operating and riding in one. Nothing you describe makes sense. I suspect there is a learning curve you are ascending.

The boat's performance may be enhanced by the use of better propellers and adjusting the motor mounting height.

Jeff posted 05-12-2015 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
You actually have been given bad advice on how to run the hull.

The Post Classic 24 Outrage uses the exact same hull as our 23 Walkaround. The hull is a great hull, however you need to know how to run it properly. And moving up from a Montauk you might not know how that is to be done.

This Van Lanker designed 23/24 Whaler hull has a very sharp bow entry design, the bow keel has a very steep deadrise and the bow keel is far deeper than the stern keel at displacement speeds. This makes for a hull that can take on large seas and stay dry when adjusted to the correct trim angle. However, if you are on plane with the bow trimmed wrong, the bow to want to steer the hull out of an oncoming wave when impacting it at an glancing / oblique angle. Once you crest the hull will then want to then turn the opposite direction and surf down the backside of the wave. The phenomenon is known as "Bow Steer". It is most present if you are running with the bow trimmed too far down in rough / choppy conditions. This can be very jarring at times.

On our 23, we run with the motors trimmed up and the tabs up in all calm and choppy conditions. We vary the trim for different speeds but always aim to be bow high. The only time I crank the bow down is if the wind and the waves are coming straight dead on to bow with the course I am traveling.

Tom is also correct in that you likely need to adjust you prop selection and mounting height to help you achieve this trim angle at all on plane speeds.

Articles to read..
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022751.html
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022786.html

matt13moto posted 05-12-2015 12:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
Jeff, thanks for your feedback, the scenario I am experiencing is bow steer. I have not been trimming up very much, and the boat seems to just have a mind of its own when its choppy steering left then right and makes me very uncomfortable.

Tom, what should I look for with propellers and engine mounting height? I have 3 blade stainless props and I will make note of what the pitch is today when I go down and work on the boat.

Thanks everyone!

Jeff posted 05-12-2015 01:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Matt, the best bit of advice I have learned from running our 23 is, if you are having to work the wheel a lot, or are fighting fighting the wheel...you are trimmed too far down.

In nearly all conditions I run with the motors trimmed 1/2 - 2/3 of the way up / out. At WOT, the motors are at full trim. The boat will go from feeling heavy and with a mind of it's own, to almost floating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrfooU6zeXU

Take the boat out and once on plane, trim the motors up and tabs up and let use know if that helps you...

Tom W Clark posted 05-12-2015 03:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt -- Since you are local to me we should just go for a boat ride and investigate what can be done.

I suspect you will find 15-1/2" x 17" Mercury MIRAGEplus propellers on those motors, or at least I hope you do. Might be Quicksilver MIRAGE as that was OE in 1994 but those are not as good for this application.

Don SSDD posted 05-12-2015 06:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
I had a 17 Montauk, my first boat ever. I had a friend acquire a 1994 25 Outrage with twin 150 Johnsons, he had never run an outboard before, just large inboards. We went out in a 2-3 foot ocean chop the first time out (Atlantic Ocean), it is an unbelievably stable and dry boat. At full throttle in those seas, we could do a 360 without fear.

You will be very happy once you get this sorted out.

Don

Jeff posted 05-12-2015 09:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Matt,

Take Tom up on his offer. He is a wealth of Whaler and Prop knowledge that you can not find ANYWHERE else.

Another thing to consider for improving the ride on this Post Classic 24 Outrage is to get this hull to stay on plane at low - moderate speeds. Our 23 Walkaround does not want to stay on plane at low - moderate speeds due to the increase deadrise on this hull. Even with the motors and tabs down all the way. Depending on the sea conditions anything from 20 -22mph is where the hull wants to fall off plane. So there are times where you have to run at speeds that might be too much for comfort in given sea conditions, or your crew's comfort...

We are turning the standard 17p 3 blade Yamaha Stainless props on our 150's. We have been thinking about turning to 4 Blade Turbo props to help keep the hull on plane at these lower speeds. We used the 4 Blade Turbo props on our 22 Guardian and it greatly improved low speed planing.

As noted above...our main reason we want to improve this low speed planing is to improve ride quality in the heavy, wind blown choppy and square wave conditions we can get here in the Great Lakes. By square waves I mean, we can get waves that their crest to crest amplitude is close to their height....I.E. 3' waves, 3' apart (or 6 or 8 or 10)

matt13moto posted 05-12-2015 10:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
Thanks Jeff for the advice and the video I can see that you trimmed way up definitely more than I have been... I am excited to try it but I guess I have not trimmed up much because I have not been wanting to cruise very fast, the boat seems to cruise about 28 or 30 at 3800 rpm and even that is too fast for the conditions I have been in out in the ocean it feels a little out of control so my thought was I won't trim up much when it is choppy and try to go as slow as I can while still planing, but then it does that bow steer. I have felt stable and comfortable when its flat calm. I am going to the ocean for halibut fishing offshore tomorrow for the rest of the week and I will play with it a lot, and let you know how the trim makes a difference. Thanks again huge help.

Tom I would love to go for a boat ride where are you located ? I am in Poulsbo WA. If we do go out in the sound I would like to do it on a day with some wind and can experience what makes me uncomfortable.Thanks

matt13moto posted 05-12-2015 10:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
Yes Jeff, I have noticed the same thing very tough to stay on a plane when it is very rough. That makes me feel better knowing that is just the nature of the beast...sometimes my girl friend is begging me to slow down because it is a little hairy going 26 mph in big wind waves, but I cannot slow down or it just falls off plane. I will definitely consider 4 blade props. thanks
Tom W Clark posted 05-13-2015 09:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt -- I am in Seattle, in Ballard about seven minutes from Shilsole Marina and the Eddie Vine ramp. I am traveling now but will be home a week from Friday.

Where are you fishing for Halibut?

matt13moto posted 05-13-2015 10:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
TOM thats great we boat over to that side regularly. If we can work it out I could easily head over to shillshole that weekend. If either of us is to busy we would have to wait until the following month. I work in alaska for one month and then come home and have a month off. I am leaving on the 24th of may.

I am halibut fishing out of Sieku but will be fishing in area 4 (Neah Bay) hopefully we catch one!

JohnKaloper posted 05-17-2015 11:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnKaloper  Send Email to JohnKaloper     
Matt,

I too have a 1994 24 Outrage, however mine has a single Yamaha 250 with a high-thrust kicker motor. I believe the 24 Outrage Tom refers to have experience in is my boat but I could be wrong on that point. These boats will bow steer if you use too much tab or engine trim. I only run heavy tab and trim in heads seas otherwise only enough tab to run level and engine trim for comfort. I've had my boat to Neah Bay many times and it runs well in the ocean. I currently run a 17 Rev4 which is a great prop for my combo. Mine is probably easier to keep on plane due to less weight on the stern, single versus twins. Just wondering has your boat been at a dock inside Miller Bay? If so, I've seen your boat there. We have a cabin on the spit at Indianola.
Let me know if I can be of any help.
John

matt13moto posted 05-18-2015 01:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
Hi John Yes I keep my boat at the shop there in miller bay, and boat from there regularly, and in the summer I keep my montauk there. Once salmon season gets rolling I will just keep my outrage in Sekiu for the summer. I did think the boat handled in the ocean pretty well with the tabs up, but it was so rough this weekend I couldn't really go fast enough to trim at all.
matt13moto posted 05-18-2015 05:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for matt13moto  Send Email to matt13moto     
I also wanted to let everyone that has been offering advice on this thread that I checked my propeller. They are stainless steel Quicksilver-brand 17-pitch three-blade.

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