posted 11-30-2006 09:28 PM ET (US)            

My Raider is, from what I have been told, basically an 18-foot 6-inch Outrage hull with a different interior.The Honda 130-HP weighs 510-lbs and I believe yours weighs 485-lbs. I have a 9.9-HP kicker (also a Honda) which adds an additional 117-lbs. So I have a boat whose hull is heavier to start with, plus an additional 142 lbs of engine and at least 20-HP less.

To help compensate for this I have Bennett M120 trim tabs installed. I had both batteries installed in the console, and I have a Kodiak 32 gallon live well installed in front of the console. All of this has helped, but I still am looking for better mid-range performance.

I think from what you have mentioned we are looking for similar things. I don't think you have to worry about the low end of your range (trolling 5 to 8 mph). If you are like me you are more concerned about the mid range and good ride and economy at 18 to 22-MPH.

Tom was saying that in order to give you good advice everyone here needs some actual performance information from you and some actual data points about how your rig performs with a certain propeller at each range, i.e. boat speed at 1,000-RPM, at 2,000-RPM, etc. Tom posted a form for keeping prop data in a previous thread. You may want to find it and print some copies to fill out when your running your tests.

I recommend you talk to Eric and explain what kind of boating you do and ask him to prop it with a decent aluminum prop. He will do his best I'm sure. Then take the boat out and get the data in several different sea conditions. This will give you the information you need for people to offer good recommendations. You are going to need at least one spare prop so after you have all your information (and borrowed a few test props) you can go out and buy a good stainless steel prop that suits your rig.

posted 12-01-2006 12:40 AM ET (US)            

What is the gear ratio of the lower unit?

posted 12-01-2006 01:24 AM ET (US)            

If you asume the BF150 will give you a maximum speed of 47 MPH at 6000 RPM, and you insert 2.14 as the gear ratio and 6% slip, you end up with a prop with around 19 inches of pitch.

The Honda 3 blade (Powertech OFS) in 18 pitch I recommended in the other thread actually performs like a 19 pitch prop. I know this because I have one. It has a large surface area and works great in offshore coditions.

When running a 4 blade prop, you generally need to drop one inch of pitch which in your case should be around 18. Since the 4 blade Honda "turbo" model you ordered does not come in 18 pitch, I recommended you try the 14.25 X 17 pitch 4 blade. This should give you good acceleration, good grip in rough seas, good cruise fuel economy and also enable you to maintain plane at a lower speed than a 3 blade prop.

I don't claim to be a prop expert but I have the same basic motor as you on a similar boat and have tried these props that I recommended. Others here have experience with different brands of props like the Stiletto and may give you good advice about which of them may work well for your application.

posted 12-01-2006 09:11 AM ET (US)            

A 4-blade propeller will be harder to turn due to increased drag. So there is a general rule of thumb that the motor will lose 200 to 300 RPM using a 4-blade propeller of the same pitch and style/shape as a 3-blade propeller counterpart. Thus, if going with a 4-blade propeller, it might be that a 15 inch pitch is necessary to allow the motor to turn up to 6000 RPM.

posted 12-01-2006 10:22 AM ET (US)            

A large surface area prop like a Power Tech OFS may be too much propeller unless pitch is reduced even further. The OFS is similar to the Mercury Mirage Plus and is an excellent prop for larger heavier boats. It *might* be good for this boat but only in a 17" size. If the motor can spin a 17" I would expect it t be an excellent choice given David's sated application.

In a four blade Honda prop like the Four Blade OFS I would think he would have to drop all the way down to the 15-1/4" x 16" model. That is a big prop and may be too much for an Outrage 18 though it would have to stick like hell.

If the Honda BF1590 can turn a big pro like that, then it should be able to turn a Mercury Revolution 4 in a 15" or 17" pitch.

A Mercury Offshore/Vensura four blade would worth trying too.

In the Stiletto Line, the Advantage II 14-14" x 17" would be the ticket and probably the fastest prop of all.

A Stiletto Bay Pro (four blade) III in the 14-1/4" x 15" may be a good fit.

Note that the Stilettos tend to overstate pitch so choose a lower pitch model than you might otherwise.

I have sold a lot of Advantage IIs but only two Bay Pros and I have not tried the Bay Pros on my own boat. The reports I have gotten are good. Here is the feedback I got from one CWer on a 15" Bay Pro III on a 150 HO powered Outrage 17 II:

'Got to use the prop over the weekend for a couple of days. Very impressed with the performance.

The boat came up on plane very quickly and I was able to stay on plane at a lower speed.

I could see a two or three mph reduction at top end, but the rpm went up to about 5800.

I do not see any down side of this prop...except I am afraid to take it into shallow water. LOL

I even think I am getting better gas mileage, but I couldn't prove it."

He had formerly been running a 19" BlackMax aluminum propeller and wanted a prop that would grip well.

posted 12-01-2006 12:30 PM ET (US)            

I disagree on the BF150 not being able to swing a larger prop. Once again, my BF135 can swing a 15.25 X 17 Powertech OFS to 6300 RPM and a 14.25 X 17 4 blade Honda prop to 6000 RPM. I think a 15 pitch prop will not be enough and make his motor bounce off the rev limiter. I know I'm comparing two different boats and I'm interested to see what size prop he ends up with.

posted 12-01-2006 02:59 PM ET (US)            

bwc8418 says:

quote:

---

I have a 1984 18 Outrage, I repowered over a year ago Honda 150, and have been very pleased, I tried several wheels, and decided on the balistic made by Michigan props,14 1/2 X 19. I am turning 6000 and speedo and paddlewheel are around 48 MPH, more or less depending on weight. I have strong hole shot and good top end.

---

posted 12-01-2006 06:38 PM ET (US)            

Also, try to proof read and spell check your posts, the spelling and punctuation erroes make it difficult to read. A space comes after a period.

posted 12-03-2006 02:02 AM ET (US)            

If you didn't get any ventilation with the prop, I'd leave the motor 2 holes up. With a good cupped 3 blade prop or a 4 blade prop, you should get good grip in offshore conditions.

I'd return that Solas Titan and try a 17 pitch Powertech or maybe get a 17 pitch Stiletto from Tom Clark. If you bounced off the rev limiter with the 15 pitch Titan, the 4 blade Honda "Turbo" in 15 pitch might not be enough pitch. Welcome to the fun of prop testing!

posted 12-03-2006 12:25 PM ET (US)            

Feel free to introduce a double line break when you write thus creating paragraphs that make it easier to follow along with what you are writing.

OK, we understand you want to stick within the Honda line of props because a stainless steel propeller was part of the purchase price of your new BF150.

With that in mind and based on the performance data presented so far, I recommend the Honda "Turbo" 14-1/4" x 17" three blade propeller, (#58233-ZY3-A17H). This is a Turbo 1 propeller made for Honda by Precision Propellers in Indianapolis. Precision also makes Stiletto propellers so this would be the sibling of the Stiletto Advantage II and should be a very good fit.

posted 12-03-2006 12:29 PM ET (US)            

I know what you are saying about the wind. It is a strong offshore wind all the way down to Ensenada, B.C.. Gusts to 45 MPH. I was going to do some prop testing on 2 new props today but there was just too much wind. The bay is flat but the wind would seriously pollute my data. The forecast is for an onshore flow by Tuesday. Winds should drop to below 10 mph.

If your prop is cavitating on a flat sea just imagine what will happen going over the top of 3 to 4 foot swells. Also Dave, record you speed at each rpm range paying particular attention to at what speed and rpm you come on plane and likewise at what rpm it takes to maintain the 18- 22 mph cruise that I believe you are looking for. Likewise, measure your speed and RPM at WOT.

posted 12-03-2006 12:31 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

i can't even trim the engine up to not even level without cavitation.

---

What do you mean by this? How do you know what level is? If you are talking about the line half way on the guage, this does not necessarily mean the motor is level when it reaches the line. Put a carpenter's level on the anti-ventilation plate with the boat on the trailer and find out when it is level; then look at the trim guage.

posted 12-03-2006 01:16 PM ET (US)            

I am basing this on my experience with my own boat. I have the engine mounted as low as it can be, but I often find that in rough water I wish it were mounted even lower. The design of the Whaler Drive on my boat puts the engine mounting height at the equivalent of about "2-holes up," and, while this is fine in smooth water, it can be a problem in rough conditions.

Another consideration is that a lower-pitch propeller will probably tend to hang on better than a higher pitch propeller of similar design. I found that a 15-inch propeller would hang on to its "bite" in all sorts of sea conditions, but that a 17-inch propeller would loose its grip. Often in rough seas it is desirable to be able to run the boat with a bow-high attitude in order to ease the boat's entry into head seas. The only way to get your bow up is via engine trim. There is no trim tab that will raise the bow. Therefore, if you have chosen a propeller which does not permit the engine to be run with it trimmed up (so that it would tend to raise the bow of the boat), you will find yourself in a miserable state in rough headseas. If you have to tuck the engine trim all the way down to keep the propeller connected, you will also be forcing the bow down and perhaps making a rough ride into the seas.

posted 12-03-2006 01:22 PM ET (US)            

Before adjusting the motor height further, let's establish where the anti-vent plate lies relative to the keel without regard to one hole or two holes up. Not all motors on Whaler transoms were mounted exactly the same and not all motor leg lengths are exactly the same either so the anti-vent plate position in your one or two hole up position might not be exactly the same as another's. So what is the height of the anti-vent plate in relation to the keel at the stern with the motor as it is currently mounted? Can you take a picture that shows the relationship and provide a link to that?

posted 12-03-2006 04:38 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Before adjusting the motor height further, let's establish where the anti-vent plate lies relative to the keel without regard to one hole or two holes up. Not all motors on Whaler transoms were mounted exactly the same and not all motor leg lengths are exactly the same either so the anti-vent plate position in your one or two hole up position might not be exactly the same as another's.

---

Before you go changing the height of the motor, check the height of the anti-ventilation plate in relation to the bottom of the hull at the transom.

My motor is 2 holes up which is about 1 3/4" above the keel and I boat mostly in rough water and rarely experience ventilation with a good offshore prop. Most good stainless props are designed to run up high. I would leave the motor mounted where it is until you find the prop that works the best.

posted 12-03-2006 08:44 PM ET (US)            

Is there really that much difference between a Johnson and a Honda in terms of vertical positioning of the AV plate?

Peter has his Johnson mounted two holes up and reports the AV plate to be even with the keel.

Perry has his Honda mounted two holes up and reports that the AV plate is 1-3/4" above the keel.

Now I know Perry has a Nantucket (Outrage 19) not a classic Outrage 18 but still, that is a HUGE difference. The bolt hole spacing on all motors is 3/4" so the difference between the reports is equivalent to 2.33 bolt holes!

posted 12-03-2006 08:52 PM ET (US)            

Relax, I know you have had along weekend. You will get it all worked out in due course. I, for one, am glad you are going to all this trouble and sharing what you have learned.

While you are probably hoping to just figure out what is best for your boat, remember that what is written here will be revisited many, many times. Next year (or maybe next week) some guy will repower his classic Outrage 18 with a Honda BF150 and will do a search of CW for information about what the appropriate propeller is for it. This thread will come up.

This is where all this discussion really becomes valuable. You are helping not only yourself but these future BF150 owners as well. This is one of the reasons I am so particular about what and how information is reported here.

posted 12-03-2006 09:04 PM ET (US)            

The anti-vent plate is even with the keel new.photos.yahoo.com/whaler186/album/576460762347092655/photo/ 294928803848807889/14

There is 1 1/2 inches from the top of the transom to the bottom of the bracket. new.photos.yahoo.com/whaler186/album/576460762347092655/photo/ 294928803850604774/15

posted 12-03-2006 10:05 PM ET (US)            

It¥¥¥s more effective to spend some time with your rig than going out and spending money. There are a few shops here in San Diego that may loan you a prop if you want to try something different (if they think you are a paying customer). I will pass those names on

I will be free anytime after this coming Friday afternoon so if I can do anything to help just let me know. I would be happy to help. Just cut down on the caffeine, please!

I have a couple of props I need to get some data on anyway. I¥¥¥ll send you and email with my cell #. I wont be able to help you with your top end as my boat is somewhat of a ¥¥¥Dog¥¥¥. You will probably loose me at about 4500 or 5000 rpms.

posted 12-03-2006 11:11 PM ET (US)            

Ok i"ll relax.
I know how i want the boat to handle and am sure this next prop will be my last,(at least i hope so.

I'll call Eric bright and early tomarrow.

Iam pretty confident that its going to be a match made in whaler Heaven.

I had my 17ft whaler and also went through some growing pains but in the end it was dialed in perfectly.

One down , one to go. i realize this information will help the next person that repowers with a honda.
Thats one of the reasons i went with honda, could'nt find any data on the Suzuki and the price fixing also.

Thanks Tom for the tip with the double spacing.
Even i can read what I write now. LOL.

posted 12-03-2006 11:12 PM ET (US)            

David, what are you going to do next? Send back the Titan and have Eric send you a different prop, if so which one? Will he let you borrow more than one? I bet the shipping cost will not be cheap. Tony has a good idea about going to a local prop shop in San Diego to see if you can try some demo's.

Good luck and try not to get frustrated.

posted 12-04-2006 12:58 AM ET (US)            

Yes iam going to talk to Eric in the morning.
what ever the shipping its got to be less then driving 200 miles and spending 8 hours driving. hopefully it won't take long. 39mph is not real fast like before with the yamaha,but iam sure it has more in it , maybe like Peter said 42-45 mph thats ok by me as long as it handles good like i need. Good nite long day tomarrow.

posted 12-04-2006 11:50 AM ET (US)            

I spoke to Eric today and ordered the prop from him.
I went for the Honda Turbo prop 14.25 X 15 pitch stainless. He should have it by this weekend. Hopefully I'll get it by early next week. Iam confident that this prop will be everything iam looking for and should rev to about 5700-6000 RPMs. What i like about the four blade is it seems to have better control.

My dealer does'nt stock this prop,Iam just glad he did'nt give me any problems about ordering it. He just wanted to be sure. So i look forward to giving some good reports soon.

Mean while i guess i'll go through the engine break in period. thanks everybody for all the responses and information . David

posted 12-07-2006 05:17 PM ET (US)            

At 6000 RPM, a 15-inch pitch propeller on your motor will top out at around 39-MPH and that is factoring in zero percent slip. It should provide excellent grip and a great hole-shot though.

Make sure you trim the motor up until the speed measured on your GPS reaches its max. Hopefully you will have some calm water to test it. Good luck...

posted 12-07-2006 10:17 PM ET (US)            

I am taking a good guess at this point. Since the four-blade is the same pitch but has more surface area I expect to see a reduction in [engine speed of] maybe 300 to 400-RPM [as compared to the] three-blade of the same pitch. That should put me right about 5,700 to 6,000-RPM, I hope.

If this doesn't work then [I]'ll have to keep testing. But [I]don't think [I]'ll be able to ask Eric anymore. I'll just have to take Tony's suggestion and try a local company for demo propellers until [I] find the right one.

Heck maybe [I] need a 14.25 X 16 pitch four-blade? But they don't make that pitch in this prop!

As far as speed goes, [I] don't think it'll be a speed demon either way.

posted 12-08-2006 08:32 AM ET (US)            

Crouch's speed predicting formula uses three factors to estimate boat speed: 1) HP, 2) weight, and 3) a hull factor. A boat with a higher hull factor will go faster with the same HP and weight than a hull with a lower hull factor.

Speed prediction for a given HP and weight for a classic 18 hull is best estimated using a hull factor of 180 to 185. Based on Whaler performance data, the hull factor for a 190 Nantrage ( Nantucket/Outrage) has been determined to be between 205 and 210. What this simply means is that the Nantrage is easier to push through the water. This is not surprising given that the hull shapes are quite different. Perhaps the most noticible difference is in the stern. The Nantrage has a softly contoured profile with several lifting strakes providing lots of lift running right to the edge of the transom. The classic 18 Outrage, on the otherhand, has a sharp V with 14 degrees of deadrise at the transom and the two sharply angled sponsons providing good tracking but causing some drag on either side.

Basically, what this higher hull factor means is that Nantrage is going to be less sensitive to weight loading in the boat and a bit easier to prop. It is my belief that since the Nantrage has a different and higher hull factor, it may not be the best guide for propping the classic 18 Outrage.

Again, the best way to find the right propeller is to try a bunch. The propeller manufacturers do not adhere to any standard when it comes to pitch designation for propellers so no two manufacturer's "17 inch pitch" propellers, for example, are necessarily going to be the same actualpitch.

posted 12-09-2006 02:01 AM ET (US)            

Where would i be able to weigh my boat? would i disconnect the trailer form the boat? And i would guess come back and weigh the trailer separate. What should it weigh? It has a center console with duel batteries, Swivel seats,22 gallon ,front cooler seat,bait tank and of coarse the new Honda 150 4 stroke. As far as testing the props, Yes it was diffcult do to the high winds but i did the best i could.

I think Tom is on to something as far as this prop or brand the 17 pitch could be like a 19. So if thaTS CORRECT then a 15 should be my closest guess. 4 Blade is what i mean. Hopefully i'll be here tomarrow if not Monday .

posted 12-12-2006 09:56 PM ET (US)            

I i just received the prop today. Its the honda 14.25 X 15 pitch 4 blade turbo. I installed it and hopefully i can do some testing wednesday or thursday.

posted 12-13-2006 09:19 PM ET (US)            

Ok winds about 15mph,less then 1 ft wind waves.
against the wind
idle- 1.7kt With the wind

1000rps- 3 knts 1000rpms- 3.4 knts

2000rpms- 6knts 2000rpms-6.4knts

3000rpms- 10knts 3000rpms- 10.5

4000rpms- 21.3knts 4000- 22.4

5000- 28.3 knts 5000- 28.7 knts


6000- 34.6 knts 6000 rpms- 34.8 knts


This run was done with me and 1 friend, 22 gallon bait tank full, just under 1/2 a tank of fuel. The engine will still go past 6000rpms about 6200. So maybe this prop is just not grabbing enough water iam guessing.

posted 12-14-2006 12:53 AM ET (US)            

Did you trim the motor up (out) when testing at WOT?

How was the hole shot?

Did the prop break loose at all (ventilate)?

What was the speed at 6200 RPM?

posted 12-14-2006 01:19 AM ET (US)            

I did trim the engine up, the max speed was 34.8 knts.

The hole shot was good, the prop did'nt ventilate.

It did'nt pick up any speed after 6000 rpms.

I wish i had the 17 pitch to try here.

I think your right though, if the engine loosens up the 17 should be just right. I'll call Eric tomarrow.

posted 12-14-2006 03:04 AM ET (US)            

I suspect the 17 pitch 4 blade will probably get you close to 6000 RPM and 44 MPH at WOT with just you and a light load, especially after the motor loosens up.

Tom Clark brought up a good point about the weight of your boat. If forum member bwc8418 gets 48 MPH and can swing a 19 pitch prop on his 18 Outrage with a BF150, maybe your boat has some water in the hull.

It might be a good idea to put it on a scale like others suggested.

posted 12-14-2006 09:56 AM ET (US)            

1000 RPM --- 3.7 MPH
2000 RPM --- 7.1 MPH
3000 RPM -- 11.8 MPH
4000 RPM -- 24.6 MPH
5000 RPM -- 32.8 MPH
6000 RPM -- 39.9 MPH

David has reported that the motor hit 6200 RPM which, if we assume the propeller slip was constant between 6000 and 6200 RPM, would have resulted in an ultimate top speed of 41.2 MPH.

OK. I agree with Perry's comments about the 17" Turbo being the next prop to try. The reason why I did not make that recommendation in the first place is because David already tried this very propeller and reported:

...had the 4 blade [H]onda [T]urbo prop in 14.25x17 mounted on the engine. We launch the boat and right away it has a real nice feel, boat is level even just cruising along about 5-7 mph. We get outside and punch, it only manages to pull 5000 [RPM].

There is no way in hell a 15" version of a propeller will yield 6200 RPM while the 17" version of it will only yield 5000 RPM. Something is grossly inconsistent.

Given David's growing experience with his new boat and motor I am inclined to take the most recent data as valid and discount the original data. The motor being broken in, the change in mounting height and the water conditions may all have some partial bearing on the wide divergence of data.

I suspect the 17" Turbo will yield 5800-5900 RPM and a top speed of 43-44 MPH as Perry has already predicted

posted 12-14-2006 12:43 PM ET (US)            

When i first bought the boat, I did'nt notice the drain tube where the bilge pump sits was leaking. This boat was always trailered but still, It could've taken in quite a bit of water i suspect.

I drillrd a hole at the bottom of the stern right at the rear bottom corner. About a 2 cups of water came out. I also drilled a couple of holes around the drain tube, and jacked up the boat and leaned it towards that side. No water came out. I hate to think about removing the entire deck,console,and fuel tank.

From what you iam hearing,maybe i should go back to the 17 pitch prop. The first tests were'nt valid. Too much wind 45 mph at time. Pretty choppy . So i think that i'll try the 17 once more and that should conclude this.

I'll let you guys know as soon as this is done.

Another thing, Is there an easy way to test for water intrusion in the hull? thanks you guys

posted 12-14-2006 07:31 PM ET (US)            

If this one is'nt the right fit iam going to go to a prop shop. The guy i bought my engine from is getting tired i guess. It is a hassle for him as he has to mail them to me.

On the other hand i also spent a lot of money so i just want it right.

So all and all its your felling that i'll pick up speed? and it will work better then the 15 pitch?

posted 12-15-2006 01:07 PM ET (US)            

It is not unusual for a Whaler hull to have some water in it. I suspect almost all old Whaler hulls do, but there is a very big difference between having a few cups of water in the hull because of a leaking old O-ring around the drain tube or a poorly installed transducer mount and a hull that has gained hundreds of pounds of water in the foam core.

If the foam core of your Whaler has significant amounts of water in it, you will not be able to simply drain it out. I know of no way to remove water from a waterlogged hull.

Before we decide that you have a waterlogged hull, you need to make an accurate estimate of the hull's weight. The only way I know of to do this is to weigh the boat on a certified scale. I have done this with my boat and it is a tedious and laborious process.

Start by stripping everything you possibly can out of the boat that is not original equipment. You will be surprised how much his gear amounts to.

Fill the fuel tank so you know how much fuel is in the tank. There is no way to make an accurate estimate of the fuel amount without filling it to capacity.

Tow the boat to a certified scale and weigh it. Then you have to launch the boat or otherwise unload it and return to weigh the trailer by itself. DO NOT rely on published tailer weights. They will not be accurate.

Now you need to do the math with the two weight measurements. Subtract the latter from the former to arrive at a net weight for the boat and motor. Subtract the weight of the fuel (63 gallons will weight about 400 pounds). Subtract the published weight of the motor. Subtract about 15 pounds for the stainless steel propeller (if you did not already remove it.) Subtract the weight of any gear that was bolted down and you were unable to remove.

posted 12-16-2006 01:27 AM ET (US)            

On another note i received the 17 pitch prop but the weather is no good for testing at this time. Maybe next week hopefully.

Iam going to fill up the tank and retest the 15 pitch, then test the 17 pitch prop.

Hopefully be done with this and just decide.

Seems if my hull does have lots of water then i'd have to remove the deck plate, fuel tank and remove foam i would guess. Then just replace foam and reinstall etc...

I just hope thats not the case.

posted 12-16-2006 01:30 AM ET (US)            

I believe the Gaurdian hulls are rated for approx 50 more HP then a normal hull.

So the 18 ft would take a 200 HP i do believe.

Give me a call tomarrow if you can. 619-213-2191

posted 12-16-2006 02:39 AM ET (US)            

http://www.brunswickcgboats.com/default.asp?content=boats&boatid=40

What are you going to gain by retesting the 15 pitch prop? You might ding it and not be able to return it.

posted 12-16-2006 07:00 PM ET (US)            

I'll take your advice, but it looks like i won't be able to test until monday or tuesday at the earlist.

If i did ding a stainless prop, Are'nt they fixable?

posted 12-21-2006 05:48 PM ET (US)            

Did more testing today.

Slight wind maybe 5 mph-10 max. One half a tank of gas, My friend and me aboard. I weigh 250lbs, friend weighs 280lbs.
Duel batteries mounted in center console.
14.25 X 17 Honda turbo prop 4 blade.

Idle - 2.5kts
1000-3.7kts
2000-6.6 kts
3000-18.0 kts
4000-26.5 kts
5000-35.6 kts
5600- 37.9 kts thats the max Rpms.

It gets up on plane real easy about 3200 and will maintain plane down to about 3000. Has more kts at wot but won't reach 6000 rpms. They don't make a 16 pitch for this prop so i think iam done.

I did try the 15 pitch 4 blade again just to be sure.

posted 12-21-2006 09:50 PM ET (US)            

I wish they would make the props in 1 inch increments. But they don't, so I'll just have to settle for what it is.

But i must say , It jumps out of the hole and on plan real easy with the 4 blade and i would highly recommend them for this hull. I've been told that they perform good in a following sea also. Has real good grip on turns. The engine has a nice humm at 3200-3600 that just sounds like good gas milage (I hope). Though i have no fuel flow meter i do remember how active that fuel gauge was with the 150 YAMAHA 2 smoke cough cough LOL

It has 10 hours now and iam going to do the 20 hour service now, instead of waiting.

Do you guys think i should lower the engine back down to 1 hole up? Its at 2 holes up now, Or should i just leave it at that..

posted 12-22-2006 06:52 PM ET (US)            

It really does jump up on plane easy and seems to cruise at about 3200-3500 real sweet.

I'll take your advice and just leave the engine mounted the way it is and just run it.

One thing i have noticed is at idle i get a vibration.
It goes away right at about 1000rpms,.

I do believe the honda engine has a balance shaft so not sure what would be the cause. Maybe the weight of the prop who knows. It Idles about 700-750 rpms iam sure its in specs.

I wish they would make a 16 pitch as iam sure iam missing just a few ponies. Probley about 10 but oh well. Maybe some other time down the road i'll try other props but for now iam just waiting for spring fishing!!! ( Next project raw water washdown and downriggers) .

Perry one question? Did you get the fuel management smart gauges? If so satisified?

posted 12-22-2006 09:14 PM ET (US)            

I have a Navman 3100 fuel flow meter not the digital one that is offered by Honda.

I also have a vibration at idle speed when running a 4 blade prop; it isn't present when running a 3 blade prop though. Kind of strange.

posted 12-22-2006 11:52 PM ET (US)            

I wish they had all the different types but that just was'nt the case. Its just difficult being such a far distance from the dealer, and like i stated he had to order the 4 blade props so i guess it can get expensive for the dealer. But on the other hand. I think for a dealer its best to have the widest selection of props so customers can have the best performance out of their new engines. And be satisfied.

Maybe later on sometime someone here( HINT HINT ) might have that off shore prop your talking about,And possibly lend it for testing someone LOL.
I'd love to see the difference from the one i've chosen.

I would like to say that i liked the Dealer and would recommend him to anyone thats going to repower with a Honda.
His Name is Eric Peterson in Oxnard CA above L A about 50 miles. Specilty Marine. If anybody needs his # email me at djd35de@cox.net Came with a 5 year warranty.

posted 12-23-2006 10:46 PM ET (US)            

I realize there's dealers here its that the prop was included with the engine. I have'nt contacted any yet but if iam able to borrow a prop or 2 without buying then i'll do some further testing. thanks for the web site for the fuel flow meter. I'll have to check it out.

posted 01-20-2007 12:45 AM ET (US)            

I just received a 15.25 X 16 4 blade Power tech cushion hub.
Maybe it'll get rid of the vibration!! i hope.
Just looking at the prop i can tell it is very well made and has a real nice polish to it.

My last prop was a Honda turbo 14.25 X 17 and turned about 5500 RPMs. But the thing thats been driving me nuts is this vibration at idle in gear.

This is the smallest 4 blade that power tech offers, so if it does'nt work i guess i'll have to go with a 3 blade.

Hopefully i can post some results Sunday if its not too windy, or ruff.

Looking at the prop though it looks like it has less pitch then the 17 4 blade i have so we'll see what happens.

What i was wondering is, what RPMs do you guys think i'll pull with this thing ???

87 ft outrage,2006 honda BF 150,and just me at 245 lbs this time.

posted 01-20-2007 02:58 AM ET (US)            

All kidding aside David, I think that prop should be a good fit. Powertech makes quality props. I'm very happy with mine and the cushioned hub may make that vibration go away. It's an inch larger in diameter but also has one inch less pitch than your other prop so hopefully it will give you about 200 more RPM at WOT. Don't forget to remove the thrust washer that came with the other prop and replace it with the Powertech thrust washer that came with the new prop. They are not interchangeable.

Hopefully you will have god weather this weekend for testing. Remember to bring your GPS and log your results; then post them when your done.

posted 01-20-2007 11:46 AM ET (US)            

Well Peter,

Iam not real worried about the top speed just good handling and nice lower planing speed in the ruff stuff.

Ok Jim , I guess i was just excited to do some more testing but can't until Sunday.

posted 01-21-2007 08:17 PM ET (US)            

About a 1/3 of a tank of fuel.

No wind and flat calm in the morning.

A friend and me aboard about 450 in pounds.

I can't figure out how to change my GPS to MPH,so all these numbers will be in knots.

Power tech prop 15.25X 16 pitch 4 blade stainless.
engine mounted 2 holes up.

Idle-2.6knts
1000rpms - 3.8knts
2000rpms- 6.6knts
3000rpms-16.0 knts
4000rpms- 25.1 knts
5000rpms- 31.6knts
6000rpms- 37.4 knts
6200 rpms38.5

Boat planes nice about3000 rpms, will hold plane down to about 2800. Has lots of power and acceleration.
But i still have a vibration at idle in gear.

Maybe more then before.

Next prop 14.25X 17 honda turbo 4 blade stainless.

Idle-2.2 knts
1000- 3.7
2000- 6.6
3000- 18.0
4000- 27.3
5000- 34.1
max rpms is about 5550 rpms all trimmed out.

I also trimmed out with the Power tech prop also.

This engine should rev to 6000 rpms max.
would'nt do it with the turbo 4 blade 17 pitch.
So i guess its too tall a pitch.

posted 01-21-2007 08:31 PM ET (US)            

Power tech prop 15.25X16 4 blade off shore.

The wind is up a bit maybe 10 mph.

Engine mounted up 2 holes.

With the wind i got these numbers.

Idle- 2.6knts

1000- 4.1 knts
2000- 7.2 knts
3000-17.5 knts
3500- 21.9
4000- 24.7
4500- 29.1
5000-32.7
5500- 35.5
6000- 39.8
max rpms is 6200 just barly hitting the rev limiter.

Pulls strong, real strong and iam impressed with this honda.

Would just like to figure out this vibration at idle.

ok against the wind
idle- 2.2 knts
1000- 3.7
2000- 7.2
3000- 16.8
3500- 21.0
4000- 24.7
4500- 29.5
5000- 32.5
5500- 35.0
6000- 38.9
max rpms is about 6200 and pulled 39.4 knts

posted 01-21-2007 09:29 PM ET (US)            

I also trimmed out with the Power tech prop also.
This engine should rev to 6000 rpms max.
would'nt do it with the turbo 4 blade 17 pitch.
So i guess its too tall a pitch.
I HOPE THIS HEKOS. tONYM

posted 01-22-2007 12:29 AM ET (US)            

I still have a vibration at idle.
I was hoping the Power tech would take care of this, but nope.
The only other thing i can think of is a flo torque hub from Mercury.
Iam going to talk to Tom Clark, Maybe he can help .

If that does'nt solve the problem, maybe try an aluminim prop.

If that does'nt solve the problem, well maybe i'll jump off the Coronado bridge i don't know.

posted 01-22-2007 12:20 PM ET (US)            

You should be pleased with the performance. I re-read the begining of the thread where I predicted a 47 MPH top speed which others thought was very optimisic. I suppose with a good 3 blade prop like a Stiletto or Powertech, 47 MPH could be achieved. You can hit over 45 MPH now with that 4 blade and they tend to be around 2 MPH slower than a similar 3 blade prop.

posted 01-22-2007 10:20 PM ET (US)            

I believe you're on to something as far as the motor mounts go.

That could be the probem. I mean it only does it at idle in gear!!!!

I was thinking about it today ( EVERYDAY FOR A MONTH) and this is what i came up with.

Bent prop shaft, but if its bent won't it still vibrate at rpms higher then idle? I don't know. Need it checked.

Prop out of balance, I've tried 8 different props.
Are they all out of balance? doubt it
Vacuum leak causing lean misfire at idle. doubt it, does'nt feel like a misfire.

Broken motor mount or missing or loose bolt or bolts in mount. Could very well be, as under load or in gear thats when a mount has to work and hold back the pulsations of the engine.
And it seems to have an even rythm.

Maybe its not mounted correctly. Could be, Incorrect mounting could cause the same symtoms as defective engine mounts.
At this time i think i need to have the prop shaft checked for run out, If its ok then look at the mounting and or mounts.

Guys if anybody has any other suggestions as to this vibration PLEASE give me some other ideas.

Thanks Guys

David

posted 01-23-2007 09:07 PM ET (US)            

I think i found the source of the vibration.

Iam going to see my dealer this weekend and will report what the problem is then.

And if it was cured by my dealer.

posted 01-28-2007 12:28 AM ET (US)            

I went up the coast to take my boat back to the dealer.
Another 400 miles round trip.

Ok, About this vibration i've been having at Idle.

My dealer tested prop run out, Seems to be a lot about 7-9 thousands when you push the prop shaft from side to side.

We went down to the water and drop the boat in and fire it up. It feels like its not fully ingaging in gear at idle.

So we try 4 different props and it does this with all the props.

This is something my dealer has'nt heard or seen before.

So we go back and change to whole lower unit for a new one.
This one even feels tighter by hand . The other one felt pretty loose so to speak.
So at this time iam feeling pretty confident thinking in my mind that all will be fixed,renewed,relieved etc.......
So--------------
We go back to the marina, drop the boat down and resume testing. I'll be dammed, Same noise and problem.

I must've done something really wrong in my life to deserve this. LOL

Just can't think of what it is at this time. Hmmmm.
Oh yea i bought a boat!!!
Well, My Dealer did all he could and i can't think of anything else that we could've tried. He did step up ,and for that iam glad.

A Honda Rep is going to be showing up sometime mid week.

See what happens then. Hopefully a new dam engine or proper diagnosis and repair.

Thing i do know.

I just want to be happy with my purchase but i can't be at this time.

But in spite of this i do have a smile for , If nothing else. My dealer stepped up and did all he could at this time.

But this is personal now, I want this darn thing to be smooth as silk like i know they can be.

If not there's always Suzuki but not yet anyways.

Guys feel free if you have any suggestions.
I know this tread just won't die.

posted 01-28-2007 01:18 PM ET (US)            

Please a moment of silence for my ailing Honda engine.

Any Honda Techs see this problem?

Iam just grateful that iam not 50 miles off shore with it.

posted 01-28-2007 06:17 PM ET (US)            

Its not just a vibration but a low pitched growl at times.

Makes me think that maybe the shift selector cable is maybe out of adjustment. (not fully releasing)

Almost as if you have a clutch thats not fully releasing on a car, when you go to shift it ,can grind etc...

I realize it might have a slight vibration but this can't be normal as it also makes noise. Just not all the time but mostly as you put it in gear at idle.
It just seems to hang up until you give it more gas.

I wish i had a service manual.

As i don't really understand how the outboard and lower unit work together, as in how the power is generated.

There is a long shaft that runs down from the engine to the lower unit. But how does it connect to the crankshaft?

I know how cars work, clutch or automatic but how does it tranfer the power of the engine?

posted 01-30-2007 12:16 PM ET (US)            

I would be interested to know at what RPM your respective Hondas idle at.

posted 01-30-2007 10:38 PM ET (US)            

But as far as when you try to shift in foward gear , it kind of lingers and there's no positive clunk. Unless you give it a tad bit of gas about 1000 rpms.
Makes me really think it could be just a cable adjustment. I sent my dealer a few emails but have'nt heard from him yet.

Tomarrow is the big day as a Honda Rep is going to see another engine that has problems. And mine also why he's there.

What i expect from HONDA is either they can fix it,OR Replace with a new engine, or a refund and i'll go get a Suzuki.

I hope it does'nt get ugly i do like the engine and it is still new 13 hours. About 3 hours just flushing it. Plus i've gone though the time to prop it with help from you guys.
But iam not going to accept an explanation like ,this is normal operation .

posted 01-30-2007 10:59 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

but the high weight of the prop causes some limitations with gearcases, on 2.5 liter engines, and other brands. They even rattle the clutches on my 200 EFI's at 600 RPM in gear, but it goes away as I approach 800 RPM.

---

posted 01-31-2007 11:47 PM ET (US)            

My Dealer and the Honda Tech or Rep went for a test drive today.

Sounds as if they are'nt sure as to the cause.

I spoke to my dealer after they did this test drive and iam just hoping for a fast resolution.
I don't want my boat held hostage for long.
I just have this weird feeling that their going to replace it with a new engine.

As my engine has about only 13 hours.

Iam pretty lucky that this Rep is in town, as from what my dealer told me he covers a vast area.

I just want a smooth engine,in gear ,at idle,all the time thats all i want.

I believe my dealer has done all he can and now its Time for HONDA CORPORATION To STEP UP and BACK THIER PRODUCT!!!!!

I just hope its quick, easy and painless.

As this has been a real pain in the ---.

I don't feel any ill will towards my dealer as he did'nt build it, HONDA did.

So the waiting game begins.

I'll keep you guys posted and thanks for all the suggestions.

David

posted 02-01-2007 08:53 AM ET (US)            

You are talking about prop rattle. We've already discussed that extensively. I do not think that is David's problem. After talking to him on the phone a few times, and exchanging email and following this thread, I suspect something more is at work here.

If simply increasing RPM was the solution, the mechanic and the Honda folks would have suggested that. If the prop rattle was caused by a heavy stainless steel propeller, Perry would be experiencing it too and the aluminum prop David tried would have solved the problem. It has not.

posted 02-01-2007 10:26 AM ET (US)            

I am not a very good writer!!

posted 02-01-2007 09:40 PM ET (US)            

I spoke to Eric and they did some more testing today. With the boat in the water they disconnected the cables and shifted it manually. I guess to make sure its not some type of adjustment or such. He informed me that it has the same problem. So at this point there're going to replace with another brand new engine that he has in stock.

I've noticed he has mostly stratch and dent engines so my hope is that he did'nt get a bad batch. Maybe it'll be installed tomarrow and hopefully they can test it. He will be using the same controls and cables. I was hoping for a new engine straight from Japan , but if this works I'll be relieved and hopefully finished with it.

One good thing is I don't have to spend anymore time propping it. That Power Tech prop 15.25X 16 with engine mounted one-hole up should be perfect. With the engine mounted two-holes up I got 6,200-RPM.

posted 02-02-2007 12:44 AM ET (US)            

Imagine how curious iam, but really i just want to be done with this all.

If this engine has any defect in how it runs i'd have to demand a new engine from Japan or my Money Back!!!

Then it would be time for a Suzuki, just hoping i don't have to cross that bridge.

posted 02-02-2007 01:23 AM ET (US)            

Honda sticks by their product and it is good to hear that the rep from Honda is trying to make you a satisfied customer.

posted 02-02-2007 02:11 PM ET (US)            

As far as the prop goes, i don't even want to ask for another as he does'nt stock them and it performs just right.

About 6200 with a lite load.

About the engine

I bought a blem as far as it had a few scratches so he gives pretty good discounts.
but mechanically it supposed to be perfect. I guess because of the nitemare i've gone through iam suspect of any blem but will have to wait and see.

Its kind of funny in a sad way that i really think highly of Honda products but this is the first i've owned.
And so far not good at all, but iam keeping the faith.
After all i've got too much time invested, too bad Honda won't pay me for my Hair Transplant after all this hassle.
At least a Fuel monitor system would be a nice gesture.
I'll have logged over 1700 miles and a few hundred $$$$ in gas just going there and back not to mention the time and traffic ETC....

posted 02-02-2007 02:32 PM ET (US)            

That's my point. If it performs just right, why drop the motor one hole? With a moderate load, it should rev to 6000 RPM at WOT; just where you want it.

posted 02-05-2007 11:50 PM ET (US)            

If not iam getting a full refund and will probley go with a Suzuki. This is sad as i've ne
ver heard of anybody needing a refund from Honda. Just about everybody i've talked to is a satisfied customer. Thats why i went with Honda!! Maybe it was a small run of defective units i don't know. But iam done banging my head against the wall and trying to do diagnosis on the new engine. Much less Two engines. Iam supposed to get a call tomarrow from the Honda Rep as i told my dealer i wanted to talk directly with him.

I'd like to know if you guys think this is fair for me to ask for?????

1. I'd like a new crate engine installed.

2. If this solves the problem how about throwing in a fuel monitoring gage for all my hassle. Maybe?
3. If they can't solve problems then just get complete refund.

4. Hope it does'nt come to #3 as then i'll have a bare hull, no gages,engine,steering. back to square one.

Now that would be sad.

posted 02-06-2007 10:04 PM ET (US)            

My thoughts on this are.

I think they just can't figure out the problem and there're digging in the bushes for a reason or something else to blame.
Is my 1987 18ft outrage going to cause rough running at idle, poor shifting. I just can't believe what iam hearing.

It kind of reminds me of when a doctor can't diagnosis a patiants sickness he just says ( oh its a virus).

posted 02-06-2007 10:25 PM ET (US)            

It is a plausable explanation to me.

posted 02-07-2007 12:53 AM ET (US)            

In my experience, my boat and my motor will exhibit annoying vibration at certain speeds with certain propeller configurations. With different propellers there is no trace. It is not the motor. It is the combination of:

posted 02-07-2007 02:03 AM ET (US)            

Iam thinking about asking the rep to take my boat to another dealer. Where they know how to do a proper diagnosis of the problems iam experiencing.

Maybe a new set of eyes could help.
I've heard of a real good tech in Costa Mesa named Ken .
Problem is he's real busy. I spoke to him a while back and i was impressed with his knowledge. But he had a 3 month wait for service. I'll suggest this to the Honda rep and see what he says. Maybe its something foolish like the bolts running out of threads and can't tighten anymore. Iam still hopefull for a resolution to all this.

posted 02-07-2007 07:53 AM ET (US)            

--the boat
--the motor
--the motor mounts
--the propeller
--the speed"

posted 02-07-2007 05:52 PM ET (US)            

1.)Does the engine management system manipulate the firing of cylinders to accomodate any emission requirements?

2.)If so, is it a California market only requirement?

3.)Are you (personally) willing to pay for a vibration consultant to "instrument" the boat and find the frequency of the vibration?

4.)If so, is Honda willing to reinburst you for the charges if the result of the findings are engine related?

A vibration consultant normally runs about $600.00 (in FL) for a half day plus travel charges. They produce a nice printout with very exact info. The program takes in consideration: the number of blades on the prop, engine cylinder #, ratio of reduction, flex of the boat, etc. and comes up with a frequency configuration for each.

posted 02-07-2007 11:18 PM ET (US)            

Iam expecting Honda Corporation to step up.
And replace the Engine!!! As they've tried everything they could.
And both the dealer and Rep have'nt heard or seen this much vibration in the Bf 150.

Guys, its not only vibrating but sounds like its grinding coffee beans. I've got it, an expresso coffee maker that gets 5 mpg , has a 5 year warrany, and goes approx 45 mph.
And should run for a long time as long as i change the oil.

posted 02-08-2007 10:41 AM ET (US)            

Furthermore, before Eric installed a second BF150 on David's boat, he replaced the lower unit to no effect. He also tries shimming the lower unit gears to eliminate any unnecessary play. None of this made any difference in the vibration...at all.

I have to conclude that what this boat is experiencing is merely prop rattle, plain and simple. Why it is so prevalent with this motor I do not know.

According to Eric, the prop rattle and accompanying harmonic vibration within the boat is present at idle speed of 800 RPM. Once the throttle is advanced to 1000-1100 RPM it goes away completely. This prop rattle has been present with every stainless steel propeller tried but notably NOT when using an aluminum propeller.

I have to go back to my very earliest recommendation to try a Mercury propeller with a Flo-Torq III or IV hub, which is specifically designed to accommodate and eliminate "prop rattle" and "shift clunk".

Eric also told me that the Honda Technical Representative for the five state region including California has visited his shop and run David's boat and witnessed the vibration.

posted 02-08-2007 05:07 PM ET (US)            

Its not just the vibration, but it also feels like there is no positive clunk in gear. Unless you give it more gas.
So please keep it mind its a feeling like it does'nt go into gear all the way. Unless you give it gas. So there is a grinding going on which i believe is probley the clutch dog not fully seating.

And as far as the aluminum prop, thats not true.
It still vibrated and made the noise, thats when we changed the lower unit. Went back and did more testing with 3 props.
Two stainless and the aluminum still same problem.

Thats why i left my boat there, so the Honda rep could see for himself.
Eric and He ( The Rep) said and i quote. I've never heard that noise before. NOISE!!!
Guys , maybe the flo torque hub will help, but when you buy something like this you expect a smooth operating engine and no problems. Thats not what i have.

Thats why iam go perplexed and i've invested lots of time too. I just want Honda to make it right.

And i did'nt read anywhere that said oh by the way.
that new engine your buying Its going to rattle, and grind a bit. Oh and you'll need to run an aluminum prop to help this defective design out ok. thats not what i sighned up for. Bottom line!!!

Honda needs to step up, straighten it out,fix it.
Send to different dealer if it can't delt with there.
Iam not faulting my dealer for trying, but so far thats all it is. Effort.

I just want it right thats all i ask.
New engine would please me, if that does'nt work then maybe i failed picking a Honda, Maybe my 1 owner boat is ready for the junkyard.

posted 02-10-2007 04:40 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

David, Perry,
I would be interested to know at what RPM your respective Hondas idle at.

Could it be that Perry's Honda BF135 idles just a tad higher than David's BF150 and thus just escapes the harmonic vibration David is experiencing?

---

Well I took my boat out yesterday and it idled in neutral at 750 RPM and in gear in idled at 600 RPM.

posted 02-10-2007 06:19 PM ET (US)            

My 150 idles smooth at 750 in neutral,

Probly the same in gear about 600-650 or there abouts.
The thing is it does'nt have that positive clunk in gear.
It just kind of makes a mechanical grinding noise apart from the vibration. If you give it some gas in goes in gear just fine. But seems to me it should have a positive clunk to it and still be at idle. Then from there you give it gas.
But it won't do that ever. It already has a Power tech cushion loc hub prop. And we've tried about 8 different props. And yes it still had this vibration with the aluminum prop just maybe not as strong but still very much there.

I thought maybe the shift cable could be out of adjustment. So i suggested shifting without it meaning disconneting it.
So my dealer said he disconnected it and shifted manually and still the same noise and problem.

Botton line is it runs smooth out of gear at idle or smooth past idle in gear.

posted 02-10-2007 07:35 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005154.html

...it certainly seems as though a "normal" BF150 should not experience the vibration that David is experiencing.

Yet, at the same time I have difficulty reconciling how a one motor could suffer this phenomena, then a new gearcase replaces the existing one and the behavior remains the same and then the gearcase is shimmed and fine tuned to no effect and then an entirely different motor is mounted which changes absolutely nothing.

posted 02-11-2007 02:54 AM ET (US)            

I too am baffled to say the least. Exhausted, dissatisfied with my Honda engine at this time.

I heard they have a five year warranty so they say.

My engine has about 13 hours and 3 where from flushing it on the trailer. It had this from the first 10 seconds at sea trial.

I hope Honda Corporation is reading this.
I'd like it replaced under Warranty. As my dealer
has exhausted all his options at this time.

Unless its something foolish thats been overlooked but i doubt it.

Unlike other warranties its supposed to cover everything form top to bottom.

Its odd that the new lower unit did'nt fix it.
But maybe its further up where the longshaft connects to the engine and only shows up in gear.

Or maybe its too lean in gear at idle causing what seems to be an inbalance but really could be a lean misfire. Doubtful.

Hope Honda makes it right.

I just don't have the energy to start all over but might have to if thats the case.

What i don't like is the wording with the Suzuki warranty. Which Honda was so quick to point out. When i was searching for a repower.
All major components are covered. But does'nt say what is a major conponent???

So i must ask Honda? IS THIS VIBRATION AND NOISE WHICH BOTH THE DEALER AND YOUR FIELD REPRESENTIVE HAVE NEVER HEARD BEFORE OR SEEN A PROBLEM?????

NOT ONLY WAS it NEVER HEARD BEFORE BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION BUT THE DEALER HAS TRIED ALL HE CAN. HE'S UNABLE TO DO A PROPER DIAGNOSIS OF SAID PROBLEM. HE'S DONE ALL HE CAN.

WHEN IS IT TIME FOR HONDA CORP TO NOT ONLY GIVE THEIR DEALER SUPPORT BUT SATISIFY A CUSTOMER!!!

If a problem is found and cannot be fixed. And i won't except a bandaid like just use an Aluminum prop.
No where was there a disclaimer saying i'd have to.
I plan on running the prop it has now but not that engine.

posted 02-11-2007 05:46 PM ET (US)            

At this point I think that is the best approach to resolution of his problem, so following his suggestion, I will close the thread and let everyone participate via email to give more advice.