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Author Topic:   1987 GUARDIAN 18 Re-power
elvis posted 01-12-2015 06:58 PM ET (US)   Profile for elvis   Send Email to elvis  
I'm getting close buying new power for my 87 18 Guardian...I understand evinrude has a deal going on through end of March and I'm going to the charleston, sc boat show in a couple weeks to look and maybe make a deal.

In the meantime, wondered what top end differences would be in the following:

Boat without fuel and power weighs around 2100 pounds.

200 hp etec 2 stroke

Twin Mercury 115s

Thanks

jimh posted 01-12-2015 11:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Boat speed is proportional to the ratio of power to weight to the 0.5 exponent. More power, same weight means more speed. See the calculator at

http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl

Put in your horsepower and weight. For a hull constant, use 180 as a starting point. You can see the influence of power on speed.

Torque is a Force. Horsepower is a measurement of how much force is produced in a certain time period, in other words, how much work can be done. Horsepower is proportional to torque and RPM.

Torque for an outboard engine is usually measured at the propeller shaft. The gear ratio affects the torque. Usually there is no reliable data available for outboard engines about the torque they produce, and at what engine speeds they produce it. Typically when there is data about torque, it is usually provided by a manufacturer; the manufacturer compares his engine to others. Of course, the competitors have less torque, otherwise there would be no point in making this comparison. The fans of the engine shown to have less torque become upset and pronounce the data to be flawed. Good luck finding data about engine torque that will be universally accepted

jimh posted 01-12-2015 11:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Using twin engines instead of a larger single engine is a old debate. Suit yourself on this.
leadsled posted 01-13-2015 05:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for leadsled  Send Email to leadsled     
Twin 115 Mercury's will be way too heavy in the stern. Stick with the 200 Etec.
leadsled posted 01-13-2015 05:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for leadsled  Send Email to leadsled     
The Etec 200 is 433 lbs. Twin 115 Mercury engines total 750 lbs not to mention the extra battery.
tedious posted 01-13-2015 07:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Without testing, it's impossible to say which one would have a higher top speed (I think that is your question) but my money would be on the eTec 200. Significantly less weight and half the drag from the prop and gearcase.

Regarding the weight, you'd gain 30 horses (15%) with the twin 115s, but you'd also be adding nearly 12% in weight. And having experienced an 18 with a relatively porky motor on the transom, I can't imagine putting 750 pounds on there.

Given those two motors as choices, the eTec is a no-brainer.

Tim

elvis posted 01-13-2015 08:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
The weight and 12/15% points make sense. Likewise the drag. Hadn't fully thought that through. Thank you. I think I need to decide if Etec or optimax 200, but that's a new topic. Thank you again
tedious posted 01-13-2015 09:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
For me, that would be a no-brainer too - the Optimax is a first generation DI design, and it's a LOT noisier than the eTec. It also weighs almost 500 pounds, which is more than the porky outboard I mentioned experiencing above.

BTW, I don't own an eTec - just think it's a good choice for your application. If you do want to go with Mercury, I'd pick the 3L 150 over any Optimax - it's lighter and a lot quieter, and from reports it has a lot of get up and go for 150 ponies.

Tim

elvis posted 01-13-2015 09:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I used crouch formula with a 200 at 2500 pounds and got 50.9 mph. Neat! Loaded weight with fuel and gear prob like 3000, so around 47 mph estimate. A good friends 20 outrage with updated twin 90s runs around 38, so that's one comparison fwiw. Great info and thoughts. Thanks again. Now to decide which 200 brand. Etec or optimax, which both have some interesting $$ deals. I like Yamaha too but $$ higher than Etec in my looking so far.
elvis posted 01-13-2015 09:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Waiting on $$ quotes now, installed. Etec looks very strong. Plus Evinrude has deal through March 31 that Jim mentioned, good input. I wonder if charleston sc boat show in 2 weekends would really save money? Never bought at one before. Hope to have at least one dealer quote back today. Exciting, but expensive. Hard to believe these motors cost so much.
jimh posted 01-13-2015 09:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
quote:
I used [Naval Architect George Crouch's] formula with a 200 at 2500 pounds and got 50.9 mph.

You should have just used the calculator tool I created. It is a lot simpler than working out the math yourself. Try it at

http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/crouchcalc.pl

elvis posted 01-13-2015 10:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I did use your online formula. Much easier than trying to do it longhand. Thanks for that helpful link and tool. Now I just have to find that $$ deal and write the check. Thanks again.
jimh posted 01-13-2015 10:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Brunswick hardly makes the Mercury OptiMax engine any more. They have rebranded those engines as the ProXS engines. I think this change was necessary due to emission compliance.

As Tim (TEDIOUS) mentions, the engine noise is noticeably louder with an OptiMax or ProXS engine compared to an Evinrude E-TEC.

Elvis observes:

quote:
Hard to believe these motors cost so much.

Yes, the cost of new outboard engines is very high. For that reason, I suggest you buy your new outboard engine from a dealer that you like, that you trust, and that can provide excellent after-sale support and service. All the new outboard engines are much more complicated than their predecessors, and you won't be able to perform any sort of diagnostic testing and repairs on them very easily. Having a long warranty cover an engine is fine, but the value of that is not very much if the local dealer is not able to provide the necessary service and support to deliver the warranty. For these reasons, I recommend giving the dealer as much scrutiny as the outboard engine.

Teak Oil posted 01-13-2015 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
50 mph with a light load should be easily attainable with the 200.

The E-tec is more expensive than the Optimax, but also more refined in about every way.

elvis posted 01-13-2015 05:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I'm seeking some $$ quotes now for a 200. Planning on checking out the chas, sc boat show to see if there's a deal there in case I don't get something really good prior. Thanks
tedious posted 01-14-2015 07:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
In my experience, boat shows have great deals on boat / motor packages - not so much on motors alone.

Tim

acseatsri posted 01-14-2015 05:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
I wouldn't rule out a Yamaha 200 4 cylinder 4 stroke either. Several people on this site have them and love them.
elvis posted 01-14-2015 07:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Thank you for the suggestion on the 200 Yamaha...I had not seriously looked at them because I really WANTED an Etec...I've always bought new Johnson's and Rudes.

In addition, I didn't consider Yammy because I read where the 2 stroke version only went to 175 hp, and I assumed the 4 stroke 200 would be far too heavy.

After looking at the Yamaha website, however, I learned the inline 4's weight is 487, while the etec 200 is 433 pounds...wow, not a big difference. That surprised, even delighted me. Good info!

But what about the dollars? I also had a paradigm that Yamahas cost much more than Etec. Well, i was wrong about the weight, so better do some homework.

Funny thing this week...In my quest to find that etec, , I penned specific and detailed written inquiries to like 10 dealerships, but so far have received only 3 responses, 2 of which were a bit terse and with no documentation...just a price. That surprised me, as I expected an itemized list with prices of motor, prop, controls, gauges, steering, installation, etc. and a total, like at a car dealer.

I responded back to one of the other dealers via email about providing me an itemized list...then got no response. Maybe my questioning attitude annoyed him...maybe he took a day off work, I don't know.

Call me crazy, but at the $16,000-$18,000 price quotes I've been getting, I expected a real itemized list and some friendly salesmanship like they really WANTED to sell me a motor.

$16 grand is a LOT of money to me, and serious cash deserves at least a pat on the head and a smile when I'm relieved of my small fortune.

But this has been a good lesson for me so far, and now a CW friend has made a suggestion worth looking into...I.e., I should take off my blinders and shop the competition. Message received, and appreciated. THANK YOU! A Yamaha inline 4-200 just might be under my Easter Egg tree. I will investigate.

Teak Oil posted 01-14-2015 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Dealers are not going to give their best price in an email, drive there and meet them.

Also the evinrude web site has a feature that will automatically request prices for you from all dealers in your area I used it last year and received quotes from many dealers

acseatsri posted 01-15-2015 12:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
I bought my Honda from Ed's Marine Superstore based on price and availability ONLY and had them bolt it to the transom on the tow home when I bought my new-to-me 21WA last year. I would NEVER go there for service, though. Just read some of the reviews online and you'll see why.

P.S.: A 150-HP on that boat will push it around 45-MPH. I had a 115 Mercury on my [OUTRAGE 18] after replacing the 150. The old 150 did 44 to 45, the Yamaha-Mercury 115 did about 35. This was with a light load, with bottom paint, and with T-Top. Unless you run a lot on lakes or areas where it's dead calm, you'll rarely be able to run WOT without beating yourself and the boat up.

elvis posted 01-15-2015 07:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I'm a good mechanic and could do the entire installation myself. I'd like to buy one on a pallet and install myself to save the money, but heard the dealer must program it. That said, I guess options are limited, so I'm simply down to price shopping.

Found a Yamaha in-line [four-cylinder outboard engine with] 200[HP] for $17,800 plus controls--$20,000 by the time the dust settles. So far, the E-TEC is about $2,000-less. I'm going to keep looking, go to boat show in the hopes of finding of a deal, and hungry seller, if that's possible. If I get frustrated enough or run out of patience, I may even look for a whole boat, with a like new, super-low-hour 200 motor and trailer, and buy the whole thing, swap the motor over, then sell off what's left. Might get lucky.

I also found some re-manufactured motors on eBay for around $6000. I wonder: are those worth considering?

Teak Oil posted 01-15-2015 08:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Better of buying new and get the free rigging and seven, yes seven-year warranty.

I got six years last year. The dealer does more than program the oil pump. They pressure test the fuel lines for air leaks, prime the oil pump, allow you to test props, etc.

jimh posted 01-16-2015 01:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
ELVIS--DId you figure out if you want to buy twin engines or a single engine? A four-cycle engine or a two-cycle engine? A four-cylinder engine or a six-cylinder engine? A new engine? A re-manufactured engine? Did you figure out a brand of outboard engine you want to buy? From what dealer to buy?

What horsepower engine?

From what I can tell so far, you are looking at either a two-cycle or a four-cycle outboard engine of either four cylinders or six cylinders, either a new engine or a remanufactured engine, of any brand available, and either single or twin engines, and from any dealer, and of any horsepower. And you are seeking advice. Did I miss anything?

elvis posted 01-16-2015 04:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
The summation is that buying a replacement motor is not simple, or inexpensive, but frustrating unless one has plenty of trust and cash.

What did you write above about single or twins, "Suit yourself on this."

I'm going single motor, probably new Etec, and am trying to understand why a motor should cost so much.

tedious posted 01-16-2015 07:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, new outboards are expensive - and like quite a number of other things boating-related, there's no particular reason for it. Why does a 200-horse outboard cost almost as much as a 200-horse car? If it's any consolation, a friend of mine who flies his own small plane indicates it's much worse in the aviation industry - think $30K for a rebuilt V-dub motor.

Regarding the Yamaha and installing it yourself, I did that with my F70 - had it shipped from a dealer to my local freight depot, picked it up with my neighbor's truck, and installed it in my garage. My local dealer/stealer wanted no part of such an arrangement - likely because his out the door price was over $2K higher than my total cost.

I don't know if the dealer I worked with would do that again, but if you are interested, drop me a note - address is in my profile.

Tim

leadsled posted 01-16-2015 09:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for leadsled  Send Email to leadsled     
Elvis, if you want to see what your 18 would look like with twin 115 merc's check out the yellow hull 18 on Ebay. It has twin 75 Merc's which use the same block and weigh the same as the 115 Merc.
jimh posted 01-16-2015 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
A single new E-TEC--that narrows it down a bit. Thanks.

At 200-HP, the E-TEC comes in two models: a 2.6-liter and a 3.3-liter. Both are V6 engines. To distinguish, the larger displacement is called a 200 High Output or 200 H.O. model.

elvis posted 01-16-2015 07:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Thanks, Tim, will do.

The yellow whaler with twins is interesting, appreciate the mention for comparison purposes. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the single 200, just shopping for a deal now..

.I got another quote today for a new Etec 200 motor only for $13,500. They then wanted $800 labor to install, wow, $400 for binnacle control alone, $225 tach, oil tank $275!!!, and prop for $575. Gees. The list goes on, totals over $18,000. That's why I'm frustrated.

My boat looks new, completely disassembled and put back together, restored quite nicely, a really easy installation for new motor, everything labelled and new from fuel tank to all new wiring harness, etc.

The yellow whaler for those interested (I have no affiliation with it):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/84-Boston-Whaler-18-Outrage-with-TWINS-/ 121544690631?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c4ca0cbc7&item=121544690631& pt=Power_Motorboats

I'm going to keep looking, really no rush except to buy before March 31. Maybe I'll get lucky at next weeks boat show...?

Thanks for listening to me vent and fun up and down the rabbit trails. Hope to have GOOD news to share soon.

Teak Oil posted 01-17-2015 09:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Why are you getting quotes with rigging prices? Evinrude is giving FREE RIGGING to everyone! You should be paying for the motor and tax, and maybe a prop. That's it
elvis posted 01-17-2015 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Mornin, Teak, I agree. Crazy, huh?

One observation here was that maybe the dealers don't take an email or phone buyer seriously, one must appear in person.

I have a few more contacts to make, and if no fruit, then boat show in charleston, sc next weekend, which actually will be fun, and I KNOW the food and brewskies on Shem Creek will be good. I'll take all my quotes and checkbook along, and see what happens. Should be fun if I don't get too excited and do something stupid in the moment. Heh heh

Thanks

Teak Oil posted 01-17-2015 06:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
You are right to be patient, like you said all the sales are good through March
elvis posted 01-17-2015 07:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Teak...hey, your comment on the rigging freebies was spot on! I wrote back to this dealer to ask for clarification, and he wrote:

"Your friend is right. I am sorry I missed that. The program has been offered before, but it is usually warranty or free rigging components. This program allows you to get 7 years warranty and a free rigging kit. This offer would get you the following parts:
Control box and key
Wiring harness
Oil tank
Systems check tach

So, that said, his price dropped quite a bit, and I may buy from him...still working on the details. I've bought three new motors from this dealership over the years, and they have been top notch, but this latest set of pricing quotes from "dealerships cumulative" has annoyed me greatly.

Since it is close, I think I will still go to the boat show next Saturday before signing on the dotted line....maybe I'll get lucky.

Thanks for the nudge and input, you were exactly right and timely! MANY THANKS!!!

mkelly posted 01-17-2015 07:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for mkelly  Send Email to mkelly     
I appreciate all the back & forth here on this one, but this is a no brainer, single ETEC 200 is the way to go....weight, cost, functionality. Look at the new Yamaha F200 & its weight comparison. You might lose a touch of torque out of the hole but top end will be fantastic & four stroke is just nice. I know our members are ETEC'ers (I have one myself, the 200 you are speaking of), but I also have a F60 on my 15' Whaler & love it. Most of my friends are F-Yamahas & no complaints.....
elvis posted 01-17-2015 08:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I like the Yamaha a lot, as well,they make great motors....I bought an 18 outrage years back and it came with a 150 Yammy, great motor.

The only drawback, if I can call it that, (at least for me) is the price difference, which is more than the etec in my estimates to date. That could change at the boat show.

I would be happy with either brand 200, but in the end, the money will probably be the deciding factor.

jimh posted 01-19-2015 11:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Dealers that sell loose E-TEC engines should be very aware of big incentives like thousands of dollars of free stuff thrown in by Evinrude with a new outboard engine. The dealer that ELVIS is getting a price quotation from must not be selling too many E-TEC engines, otherwise he'd be aware of the sales incentives.
Teak Oil posted 01-19-2015 09:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
I agree Jim. I received free rigging last year, plus a six year warranty, new key switch, I-Command multi disply gauge, controls plus new shift cables, (it would be foolish not to do new cables) plus a stainless prop. The guy answering those emails is a crappy salesman that doesn't know his own product.

tedious posted 01-23-2015 07:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
...or was playing dumb.

Ooops, sorry about that, I made a mistake that resulted in me getting a lot more money.

I don't think so.

elvis posted 01-23-2015 02:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I'm going to the Charleston, SC boat show tomorrow...plan to do some serious looking, and eat some gooood seafood.

Link below to show...I am not affiliated in any way, just listing it for information.

http://www.thecharlestonboatshow.com

elvis posted 01-24-2015 07:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Well, went to the Charleston, SC boat show today. Didn't buy a motor but have what I think are some good leads. ETec promotion is until like March 31, so I still have plenty of time. So how did my motor shopping day go?

The Boat Show day started out like 45 degrees with a 20 knot wind. Damp, too. Not normal for Chucktown....usually more temperate, even in January. The entrance area was outside in a large parking lot, which had many vendors and nice boats. Didn't see any Whalers...had to hold my hat walking across so it didn't get blown off. Felt like I was in Port Clinton, Ohio on the edge of Lake Erie, except without the ice and snow. Was a little chilly to start with, but was excited.

Checked out all the vendors, entered for some prize drawings, and enjoyed the intro. Froze.

Decided to go inside, and into the large coliseum, which is where the crowd seemed to be headed. More vendors..Sea Tow, Insurance folks, boat lifts, lots of neat stuff, very interesting, friendly folks, free stuff.

Had to go through another security checkpoint, and entered the big inside coliseum area. Wow, hundreds of boats...beginning with some 50-60 foot cruisers for like intracoastal, etc., high end $350,000 stuff. Wow, impressive, fun.

Walked around about 10 minutes looking at these and some other boats, then saw a Whaler flag. Oh yeah. Started with a 22 Dauntless, and a 170 Montauk, then the big boys...a 25, a 32 for like $200,000, and a 35 for like $380,000 or so if memory serves...the 35 had already been sold but we got to check it out anyway...the Whaler folks (Hall Marine, I believe it was) were fantastic and accommodating, even when I told them I was not there to buy a Whaler...just a motor for a Whaler...I pulled my cost back to show my Whaler shirt...we all smiled like family, no problem. They treated me like royalty and helped us look, but really just dream. My wow factor was in the red zone.

I thought the Whaler 25 was exceptional, the 32 was amazing, the 35 stunning. The Whaler quality is second to none of anything else I saw...no doubt in my mind, Whaler set the bar high. Impressive. Felt like I was looking at Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo. Actually I was, just the kind that floats....the boats that dreams are made of...

The Whaler fellow gave me a thick color Whaler catalog...which I'll pass on to my son, as he is the one that would spend big money before olde tight wad dad. I will get to drive it, though, one day, if I buy gas...hah hah. I'll need that new 200 on my Guardian to keep up with this younger crowd.

After salivating over my favorite line, we moved on to Grady White, which were nicely styled and equipped, but was then very impressed with Regulator and Contenders, first time I got to get in these...very nice as well. Huge triple 300 engines, geeeeessss....

Ok, so back to "the Topic" at hand here before Jim H chimes in and asks what I'm doing, why, and how in a single - dual motor thread. Can't really blame him, I have been all over the map on this, but it has been fun trying to spend new motor money, learning from the good folks here, and sharing the bumps of my travels.

Soooo, back to the new motor quest...how did I do? Not worth a flip, really, considering I haven't yet written the check.

Talked to six motor dealers (who also had boats there) and got quotes from 2 for Yamaha and Etec. The others said they would have to get back with me. Around $18,000 for each of the two quotes, not much difference, and similar to online quotes from the past few weeks of my looking. One dealer today quoted $900 installation...that was a shocker. They were all very polite, but no deal yet. I expected a killer boat show price, but left empty handed.

I was hoping for maybe a new old stock from 2013-2014, where I could save some money like buying a 2014 car off the 2015 lot. One motor dealer said good luck on finding a deal like this, that none of the new motors have years on them anymore, so basically no matter when it was built, it is whatever year it is sold, as that sale date is when the warranty starts. I didn't like this strategy at all, at least from a buyer owner perspective.

If a dealer got one in 2013 or 2014, and got another in 2015,,,both to sell, wouldn't the 2014 be cheaper? He said no, same price... I didn't understand that logic, but so be it. I will keep looking, and maybe get lucky, maybe not, but in worse case scenario, it would appear there are plenty out there if I want to pay the $18,000 or so.

Overall, it was a great day and great food, but disappointing on the motor quest. If I honestly believed a new 200 was worth $18,000 I would be more inclined to spend the money. Some would argue that a commodity is worth whatever the market will bear. Yep. I reckon that's true. I'll keep y'all posted. Hooo ahhh.

Hoosier posted 01-27-2015 09:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
This has been an interesting thread. Since you are still looking I encourage to look at the Suzuki DF-200 "Big Block 4". I've had both a DF-115 and a DF-175, both are excellent engines.
martyn1075 posted 01-28-2015 01:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
I'm wondering in the Yamaha case if the 18k is after the $1500 instant rebate. There is roughly 2k protection plan for 24 months on top or some promotion where you can use it towards warranty. The Canadian retail is 19,600 but with the 1500 rebate its really the same as your quote for 18k
elvis posted 01-28-2015 07:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi all,

As the 200 pricing with installation seems to be hovering around $18,000, I expanded my search and criteria, thanks to the good advice here and elsewhere.

One piece of advice was to "get a 150", as it costs less and will do the job. I agree, and this certainly is within what the boat is designed (by Whaler) to handle. I had an 18 outrage and bought a new 150 for it in 1996, and it was awesome. I wanted a 200 for the extra olde guy oomph but have now backed off and am now pricing 150s.

I looked into Suzukis, which in my reading have an excellent track record. Pricewise, they sticker for a little less than Etec, and I couldn't find anything to dissuade me from getting an installed quote except that I've owned 3 (old) Suzuki motorcycles that pretty much kicked my butt, and call it a dumb paradigm, I like the looks of these outboards, but have this little voice that says "get the Etec", as I've always bought new Johnsons and Evinrudes...

That said, a few days back I had requested a Yamaha quote, and today I received it... the best Yamaha quote I've gotten so far, just under $18,000 installed, 5 year warranty. Not bad.

Then I received another quite this evening on a 150 ETEC HO - HIGH OUTPUT that really got my attention, and the dealer and I really had a great conversation. I may pull the trigger on this deal tomorrow, but I wanted to give it due diligence (for an olde fart like me, that means sleep on it).

This HO model appears to be the same block as the 200 and is tuned to be at optimum performance...maybe give a little extra juice above and beyond. I liked the specs, weight at 418 pounds, etc.

I'll keep you all posted and provide more details when appropriate.

Again, thanks to all here who have patiently guided me and provided helpful advice. It appears as though my long quest of running up and down rabbit trails may have actually found a rabbit.


martyn1075 posted 01-29-2015 06:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
The 150 hp is a good logical choice for your boat, to be honest a 200 hp may be on the too much side anyways. Not sure how much you might use or notice the difference unless you are wot most of the time. Perhaps there is a little more punch with the 200 out of the hole.

I'm thinking you will go with the Etec and that would be a good choice for that boat. The new Yamaha inline four 200 is real nice motor. If I was on the hunt for a new motor today its right up their as number one. They usually fit a 20-21 foot 2000 to 2500lbs boat really well.


martyn1075 posted 01-29-2015 07:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Yamaha has shed some weight off of the new 200 its stature is considerably narrower but taller in design. I didn't realize your 18 Outrage weighed so much. At 2100 lbs it really puts it in that sweet spot for where this engine woud work best.

I can see your dilemma now. Good luck!

Martyn

elvis posted 01-29-2015 07:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Martyn, good news...

A little while ago I sent an email confirmation to a dealer I've been negotiating with and I'll be purchasing a new ETEC 150 HO all rigged out, new SeaStar hydraulic steering, viper SS prop, etc. I'm pretty excited!

Woooohoooo!!!

Gonna take a couple weeks to get it all done, but I'm really glad the chase is finally done. I'm tired!

elvis posted 01-29-2015 07:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Besides a few thousand dollars, one other reason that swayed me to get the 150 is because I read a Guardian brochure day before yesterday which states a 150 is the max hp...boat had a 200 when I got it, and I'm certain a new 200 would not be a problem except for insurance reasons, etc.. I'm hoping the HO version will be adequate.....that's a lot of money....
martyn1075 posted 01-29-2015 08:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Good for you should be great! Although the Yamaha 200 has shed weight its still about 90 lbs more than the 150 Etec. I think the stature of your boat will like choice of the lighter 150 hp. The Yamaha is a four stroke after all and its understandable for 200 hp engine to be heavier.
elvis posted 01-30-2015 06:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I put $$$ on the line today, it's done.

Dropping the Guardian off next Friday,,,I'm getting the gray 150 HO.

Sea star hydraulic and Viper prop. Everything new. Man am I excited. Already planning a fishing trip near Alligator Reef.

The fish better watch out! (Expensive fillets, ehh?)

Peter posted 01-31-2015 11:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The Yamaha F200 has not shed any weight. There are two F200 models. One is the V6 that has been around for a decade or more and still weighs about the same as it did when first launched. The other is a smaller displacement 4 cylinder model such is good for lighter weight applications where mid range torque is not critical. The only thing in common as far as output goes is they both make about 200hp at WOT. They are otherwise quite different.
Teak Oil posted 01-31-2015 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Do not let the dealer mount the motor all the way down on the transom, have them start two holes up from the bottom mounting position.

I get good performance from a Viper prop on my Outrage, you will probably be starting around 18" or so for pitch. Be sure to have the dealer let you test a couple different props to get near 6000 rpm at WOT with a light load.

I went with the graphite paint scheme last year and I think it looks great on an Outrage. Good choice

elvis posted 01-31-2015 12:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
The 2092 Johnson 200 that was on the boat originally had a 14-3/4x19 which I'm going to sell maybe eBay this weekend.

Not sure what size dealer will recommend for the 150 HO.

martyn1075 posted 02-01-2015 02:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
The Yamaha F200 has not shed any weight.

Not sure how you could say that. The new model "which is in discussion" is 119 lbs lighter than the older version. Its the lightest in its class.

tedious posted 02-02-2015 10:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, I think the 150HO is a great choice. It was previously only built in a 20" shaft version, but starting last year it's available in a 25" as well, although only in the gray color.

Since the Guardian is heavier than a standard 18, going with a 200 is also reasonable, but I think you'll be happy with the 150HO, and it will remove the possibility of any drama with your insurance company.

Tim

elvis posted 02-03-2015 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Thanks Tim, drama point noted and understood. Installation at dealer to begin in a few days-all good!!!

I really appreciate all the good advice received here, a huge help!

jimh posted 02-12-2015 05:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please follow up with some reports of performance with the new E-TEC engine on your Boston Whaler boat. In choosing the Evinrude E-TEC to re-power your classic Boston Whaler boat hull, you are following a great many other owners. The Evinrude E-TEC is a very good choice for re-power of classic Boston Whaler boats dues to its size, power, and weight. I re-powered by classic Boston Whaler boat six years ago with an E-TEC engine, and I have been very happy with that choice.
elvis posted 02-12-2015 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Will do. [The boat and new engine are] still at marine dealer being installed. Hope to get it maybe Saturday or Monday coming.
Peter posted 02-13-2015 06:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
quote:
Not sure how you could say that. The new model "which is in discussion" is 119 lbs lighter than the older version. Its the lightest in its class.

How does a new model start its life as having shed weight? The new model is a 4-cylinder model with less displacement and reduced mid-range torque. The "old" model is still offered so the new model hasn't replaced the "old" model. But if one wants to say that its shed weight then one should tell the full story that it has also shed mid-range torque. They should really call it the F200 Lite as it is much like a light beer is to regular beer.

Regarding propellers for the new 150 HO, I used to run a 14 1/2 x 19 OMC SST on my Outrage 18 powered by a Johnson 150. The Johnson would turn up to about 5200 RPM (5500 RPM was the motor's maximum) with that propeller. The E-TEC has a higher maximum RPM and the Guardian is a heavier construct than the Outrage so you may need to drop down to a 17 inch if running a Viper and more likely if running a Rebel. The Viper will ordinarily produce a higher top speed than a Rebel, for example, but the Rebel will usually be more efficient in the mid-range. If I were selecting a propeller for this rig I'd more than likely select the Rebel for its better mid-range efficiency.

elvis posted 02-13-2015 11:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Peter, based on hull weight of around 2200 plus fuel and driver, the dealer recommended 14-3/4 x 19. We discussed viper so I suspect that's what he will install. Plan to waterski some but mostly offshore fishing. Not sure of expected rpms or speed but will report on that once I get it back. It is heavier than the outrage 18 plus has dive door which the inner structure adds by whaler to support this may be extra weight. I'm hoping for 40mph and suspect it may do a little better with the HO.
Peter posted 02-13-2015 11:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
A 14 3/4 x 19 is a Viper. The Rebel has a larger diameter than that. I think that propeller is going to have too much pitch but we shall see.
elvis posted 02-13-2015 03:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I had an 1985 Outrage 18 with new 1996 Johnson 150. Was scary quick out of the hole and hit 47-MPH using a Viper propeller, but I don't recall size. Torque was impressive as first time out slalom skiing it dislocated my right arm from my shoulder.
jimh posted 02-16-2015 08:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Good story.
elvis posted 02-18-2015 07:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Boat motor installation not done yet...if the sun was shining and it was warm, I'd be going stir crazy. Gees, thank goodness for this RIDICULOUS cold weather. I suspect I'll get a call any day now to pick it up... supposed to hit 70 here Sunday, so I hope to have some performance data and some photos to share. I plan to test it in the Savannah River...borders Georgia and South Carolina near Augusta, GA....Me and the dog.

tedious posted 02-19-2015 08:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, as a New England resident, I have to blow a razberry at your comment about cold weather - we've had over 8 feet of snow in the last month, and nights have been below 0 regularly.

Yes, I am jealous of you Southern folks who get to boat year 'round! Looking forward to hearing how your report on the eTec.

Tim

elvis posted 02-19-2015 10:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hahah your point is well made, Tim! Living on the south shore of Lake Erie a number of years, I fully appreciate your situation. That said, you folks have some fabulous lobsters!!
Whalrman posted 02-19-2015 03:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Hi, very good choice on the 150 E-TEC! Congrats. on finding the right deal for you to enjoy a new engine!! What gauges are you going to use? The engine will over oil for the first few hours,2-5 I think if memory serves, but that's all. What oil will you be using, XD100? Yeah it's $40+/- a gal but, it's the best for your engine. Post pics of the "new" rig, should look great! Tight lines~
elvis posted 02-19-2015 03:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hey, thanks, Whalrman! Was hoping to get a call today that it was done, but not yet. Too cold to run it anyway without getting double pneumonia. Supposed to hit 60s by Sunday, hmm, we'll see about that.

On gauges, I installed new whiteface speedometer and fuel gauges ahead of time, and the other four round openings will be ETEC related from dealer. Getting large whiteface tach (free promotion), 2" each trim gauge, voltmeter, and a blackface hourmeter...black because he said he could not get a white one...? Oh well, it will stick out a bit, ok. He said he could plug his computer on the motor anyway and tell me how many hours, and even how many times I shifted it in and out of gear. Pretty amazing. I like that number handy for my personal edification.

I hope the 150 HO ETEC is enough juice, I think it will be. I'd post pics on here but don't know how. I guess I could email you a few...

Thanks

elvis posted 02-19-2015 03:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
On oil...whatever he tells me. $40 a gallon!!!! Gasp, choke, wheeeezzzee...zounds!!! Are you serious? Well, if that's what I need I'll do it...when I'm offshore I sure don't want any mechanical issues.
tedious posted 02-19-2015 04:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, just to clarify my understanding of the situation (as a non-eTec owner), when the motor is originally set up, you program it to use either XD100 or "regular" oil. If you choose the XD100, you must use XD100 oil, but then it mixes as a lower ratio. This reduces smoke, but maintains the same level of lubrication because of the qualities of the XD100 oil. And of course, you don't need to refill the oil tank as often with the XD100.

If I had an eTec, I'd use XD100. The reduced smoke and longer refill intervals would be worth it, to me.

Hopefully someone will correct me if I have that wrong.

TIm

acseatsri posted 02-19-2015 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
Re the XD100 oil- I ran it in my 2006 Etec 225 for 1100 flawless hours, only performing normal 300 hour services. You can buy it in bulk in your own jugs from a dealer for around $32./gallon, or you can buy a 16 gallon drum for around $375 (about $25./gallon, which is what I did). I would definitely go with XD100, just make sure you have some available at all times.

A guesstimate is that it oils at a rate of about 80:1 on the XD100 setting if you're not running near WOT all the time.

Whalrman posted 02-19-2015 07:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Didn't mean to scare you on the oil per gal. price but, shop around deals can be found. I'll be surprised if the engine will swing the 19 pitch Viper on your rig. I think more on the lines of the 17 pitch Viper will be the one, it's a heavy boat with a t-top, yes? Make sure you ask the dealer if they did an on the water test, with E-TEC diag. hooked up and what the Max. RPM was. Your tacho. maybe off up to as much as 400rpm low. So get a comparison between yours and the E-TEC diag. You want the OPTIMAL rpm with fuel tank full and all fishing gear as well as people aboard. Ask for the history report on your engine, should be 3 pages of facts, graphs, numbers, fault codes etc. New E-TEC, new hydraulic steering, man you're in high cotton now!
elvis posted 02-20-2015 05:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hey dealer called last night, ready to pick up TODAY.

Would love to run it but like 28 degrees now. If it warms up or I get crazy I'm going to run it anyway. Supposed to warm up a little Saturday, definitely Sunday.

Yes, going with the XD100 oil..that's what he told me he had programmed. Will ask him about the data chart, thanks.

Prop is a 14-3/4-19, which may be too much, this is what was on the 200 that came on the boat. The hull is heavier, probably 2100 or so, and the T--Top is a big law enforcement custom style aluminum that came with blue lights and stuff all over it.

I'll be picking out a new Depthsounder package...probably the Lowrance HD7 on sale at academy sports for $449, goes to like 2000' and looks nice.

Have plenty of rod holders and 2 downriggers, and the only other thing I want to get is a removeable tow bar for water skiing.

I'll see about getting a photobucket or other picture account setup to share pictures. Pretty excited, and sure do appreciate all the great advice here. Will be posting some performance info as I scrape the ice off my glasses.


elvis posted 02-20-2015 05:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Correction, the Lowrance Elite-7 HDI Fishfinder/Chartplotter.
Whalrman posted 02-20-2015 11:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Yeah bit cold here in Fl. too! You might be able to interface the engine with the chart ploter/fish finder, Jimh would be your go to on that as he knows the system well. Again congrats!!!
jimh posted 02-20-2015 11:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
To get the best MPG data, better get out there while you have frigidly cold air and low humidity. That combination will boost your fuel economy numbers.

I saw the forecast for Atlantic coastal Florida cities in the northern part to have low temperatures in the low-20-degree-F range. That is quite amazingly cold, considering you've got a ocean--literally--of warmer water on the coastline.

elvis posted 02-20-2015 12:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Well, I got it home!!!! Looks AWESOME!!!!

Too cold...29...for this old guy to run it today, but I can stare at it through the picture winduh!!!

Hey, THANKS to everyone who were so patient and helpful on my quest. You all are a great lot, and I thank you.

Once I get some performance data I'll share it.

Best, E

porthole2 posted 02-23-2015 03:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for porthole2  Send Email to porthole2     
Twin versus single.
Don't know anything about the comparison with outboards other then half the maintenance.

Rule of thumb with a conventional hull, diesel powered, given equal horsepower (example single 600 or twin 300's), is a twin engine boat of the same single engine horsepower is approximately 20% less efficient due to the increased drag.

Is it the same with outboard boats?

porthole2 posted 02-23-2015 03:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for porthole2  Send Email to porthole2     
@ elvis Did you trade the old outboard? Even a bad unit has value on ebay. When I blew the outboard on my 15 I stripped some of the what I thought were useable parts and sold on ebay.

Most of the big stuff that I scrapped I got requests for, parts I thought had no value.

Looking forward to hearing the rest of you report. Jumping up a few feet in boat size has me guesstimating a 4 fold increase in an engine replacement costs.

elvis posted 02-23-2015 04:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Port, thanks for asking.

I took delivery of the new ETEC 150 HO last Friday...bought new from Johnson Marine in Orangeburg, SC...dealer installed everything including new seastar hydraulic steering.

I did not trade in old motor but sold the old 200 last spring, and then I restored the boat top to bottom.

I looked for quite some time for the right motor and right deal, and after several gyrations and lots of advice, decided on the 150 vs a 200.

The deal was highly competitive, and saved me a few bucks from the boat show prices and other estimates. The dealer I bought from was fantastic in every detail, and his work was some of the very best I've ever seen...this is the 4th new motor I've purchased since 1987, where in 87 I bought a new evinrude 90 for my 17 Whaler.

On running it: Unfortunately, it has been very cold here and I've been under the weather, so even though it warmed to like 60 on this past (rainy) Sunday, I didn't take it out for a test (yet) as I didn't want double pneumonia. It rained all day today, and they're calling for freezing rain tonight. So much for global warming, ehh? Hahah. Anyway, it's ready to roll, all rigged and needing a captain. Once the weather breaks, I will be running it, and will be happy to share performance data....I'm pretty pumped about it, and if I was 25, I would be running it this minute, but alas, older age has slowed me down...wisdom, perhaps.

I'm shopping for electronics now, and pretty much have my mind made up on what to buy. Only other thing left to buy is a removeable ski tow bar, and I'm watching eBay for one of those. I'll keep you posted, and hope to have some good performance info soon. The ETEC sure looks great on the boat, and I believe it will run as good as it looks!

elvis posted 02-26-2015 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Cold, rainy, dreary, and i still have the creepy crud cough, etc. No test run yet.
Whalrman posted 02-27-2015 10:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Man I'll bet you're at wits end, all you can do is look at it thru the window as it sits there taunting you! Like a kid at Christmas waiting for the big day.
elvis posted 02-27-2015 03:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
True true. Want to catch some Lake Erie perch in nearby waterway too. My fav fish. Will leave penn senators at home and take a zebco 202, spreader for doubles and couple dozen shiners fer bait.
martyn1075 posted 02-27-2015 04:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Is it in the garage? I think I would put the muffs on it and listen to it roar! It would take your mind off of some of that cough pain. You won't have any smoke to worry about this time around.

elvis posted 03-08-2015 04:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi all, well, the weather finally broke here Augusta, Georgia area, and I today ran my 1987 Guardian 18 with the new ETEC 150HO.

WOWd describes it overall, everything from a great looking package, to performance.

As you may have read above, I went with the dealers recommendation on props...a 14-3/4 by 19 SS Viper.

It ran 46 mph with 440 pounds of people, and 21 gals gas. It turned 5100 RPMs at 46mph and was smooth as butter.

Out of the hole it will throw you out the back if you aren't holding onto something, and was on plane very quickly..

It's very quiet at idle speed ... like not running...No choke. Just turn the key, hot or cold. It was like 45 degrees when we put in at the ramp, but was warmer in the sunlight, and warmed in the next few hours to like 65 in the sun. It was a glorious day and very fun run in a great boat. It was definitely worth the wait.

The dealer, Johnson Marine of Orangeburg, SC did a fabulous job on every installation detail, and I could not be more pleased. A++++++++

Whalrman posted 03-08-2015 06:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Great! you finally got the rig in the water!! Your rpm's are too low, need to bring up to 5700-5800 rpm. Too much load on the engine and it is lugging somewhat. What tacho are you using? can you trade props from your dealer? The 17 pitch Viper will probably do the trick.
Teak Oil posted 03-08-2015 06:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
What holes are the motor mounted in? It should not be mounted all the way down on the transom.

You need more rpms at wot, 19" is too tall.

Marko888 posted 03-09-2015 12:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for Marko888    
Optimum target WOT rpm for a 150 HO is published as between 5500-5750 rpm
elvis posted 03-09-2015 03:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
So will the 17 pitch give it more top end?
Peter posted 03-09-2015 06:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
You far exceeded your 40 MPH expectation.

The 17 inch probably won't give any more top speed. But it will get the revs up and will increase the hole shot and the motor will become even more responsive to throttle input. So if you already need to hang on tight you will need to hang on even tighter.

In what hole is the motor mounted?

0 <= All the way down
0 <= One hole up
0 <= Two holes up
0 <= Three holes up

tedious posted 03-09-2015 06:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, there's no guarantee (you have to experiment) but it's quite possible the 17-pitch will give you a little more top end. It will certainly improve your hole shot, your ability to hold plane at a lower speed, and performance when running with a heavy load.

Right now your 5100 RPM is below the peak of the power curve (which is 5625 RPM, not coincidentally, right in the middle of that recommended WOT RPM range) so you are leaving power on the table. The conventional rule of thumb is that 1" pitch = 200 RPM, so the 17-pitch should put you right up to about 5500. And if you end up raising the motor, that will give you a little bit more, maybe up around that ideal 5625.

I'm going to guess that if you go to the 17 and possibly raise the motor, you're going to see 47 or 48 MPH with that same load.

Tim

elvis posted 03-09-2015 10:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
It's mounted with one open hole at the top, so the bolt goes through the 2nd hole from the top.

So it sounds like if I go to a 17 you're indicating minimal change in top speed, higher rpms, and additional hole shot (torque).

Not a biggie to me, but wonder if fuel economy would change and if so, improve or go less?

Peter - what are you running on your 18 Outrage and what kind of performance numbers does it give?

Thanks

Whalrman posted 03-09-2015 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
Fuel econ. will go up because you won't be lugging the engine as much. If top speed is what you are after, raise the engine all the way up and use the 17p Viper. That's the setting that I used on my 1990 18. Engine was the standard E-TEC 150 with one battery and the 1.8 gal oil tank in the stern.
Peter posted 03-09-2015 01:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I sold my Outrage 18 almost 3 years ago. But mine had a Johnson 150 on it (same basic motor block as the E-TEC but with carbs). The Johnson had a maximum RPM of 5500 RPM so its not a perfect 1:1 comparison for the E-TEC with a higher WOT limit. My Johnson 150 was equipped with a 14 1/2 x 19 SST propeller and typically turned that to 5200 getting the boat to the mid 40 MPH speed. My motor was mounted 1 hole up like yours. I found that 1 hole up provided the best ride quality in the chop we typically have here.
Marko888 posted 03-09-2015 02:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Marko888    
This link will take you to an E-TEC owners forum, and provides a very comprehensive answer to the questions about optimum WOT rpm and engine height.

[Gives URL to a resource which provides a picture of text with information.]

Freddy posted 03-09-2015 03:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Freddy  Send Email to Freddy     
[Gives a hyperlink to a resource that provides pictures of text with information.]
elvis posted 03-09-2015 04:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Great info.

My dealer offered me a deal on swapping the 19 for a 17, and I think I'll do that. Sounds like that will get me in the right rpm range and is an easy swap.

Thanks for all the helpful info!

jimh posted 03-10-2015 06:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Information on the recommended speed range of E-TEC engines is available in clear text, not as a rasterized picture of text, right here on CONTINUOUSWAVE. See

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ETEC_EngineRPM.html

The wonderful thing about text is that it can be read by machines, while pictures of text are not easily read by machines. There is little incentive to provide text information in the form of a picture of the text.

tedious posted 03-10-2015 04:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Elvis, asking about fuel economy on a boat is like asking about Bigfoot - neither have been proven to exist!

But at some level, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a boat a certain speed, and to generate that energy takes a certain amount of gas. So if your new prop lets you go faster than 46, you'll probably burn a bit more gas per unit time, with that increased fuel burn rate offset by the greater speed. If you back off the throttle a whisker, to 46, you'll get about the same mileage you have already seen.

In practice you are unlikely to notice much difference.

Tim

elvis posted 03-10-2015 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Tim, I agree on MPGs, was just a question, not a show stopper or even mitigating/ A new 17-pitch VIPER propeller [is] on order; should come in Friday. I hope to test this weekend.

Based on what others have written in this thread, I'm thinking a couple extra MPH, maybe 48 or even 50-MPH with improved [acceleration from a standing start]. It's a sports car. Vroom.

tedious posted 03-11-2015 07:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Yeah, very cool. My sister-in-law has an 18 with an older Honda 150 on it that performs well, but tops out around 41-MPH. I noticed the E-TEC 150 H.O. finally getting built in a 25-inch-shaft version after quite a number of years where they only sold the 20-inch version, targeting the bass boat market. I thought it would be a perfect match for the Outrage 18 and I think you're the first adopter.--Tim
elvis posted 03-11-2015 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
It was a long road to finally decide but I sure am pleased with everything including the 7-year E-TEC warranty, free top-mounting control, tachometer, and etc. I think I got a great deal, and the dealer went above and beyond on installation. I'm anxious to see performance change with the 17-pitch propeller. The engine looks really cool and dark gray color with red letters rocks.
tedious posted 03-11-2015 12:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
I'd love to see some pics, thanks!
elvis posted 03-11-2015 04:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
[Has privately shown images to others.]
tedious posted 03-11-2015 07:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Thanks - great looking boat! I like the dive door and side rails, and the motor color looks great with the black trim.

That is one huge T-top! You'd hit 50 easy without it!

Tim

jimh posted 03-15-2015 10:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I have been enjoying this thread--now over one-hundred articles in length--for two months. I look forward to getting some data about the performance of the 1987 GUARDIAN 18 with the Evinrude E-TEC 150 H.O. engine.
Buckda posted 03-15-2015 11:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Just a note about XD-100 oil use and cost. In 2008, I took my 18' Outrage with twin 90 HP E-TEC engines to Lake Nipigon, Ontario. That is a very remote lake with little access to fuel and other services.

I put more than 400 miles under the keel and never had to add oil. In fact, I had used just about half of the oil in the reservoirs. That's a week of boating and fishing *(all day, every day) with no need to add oil.

I would never use any other setting than XD-100 unless the manufacturer recommended it specifically for my use.

elvis posted 03-15-2015 05:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Buckda, yes on the XD100...that's how the dealer set the engine for that oil. Has a very faint odor when running, barely distinguishable, and pleasant actually to an old Motörhead who appreciates the smells of engines and gearboxes--heh heh.

Well, ran the Guardian again today in 80 degree sunny, beautiful weather on the nearby lake (Lake Thurmond, AKA Clark's Hill reservoir). This time with the 17-pitch Viper versus the 19-pitch Viper I ran last week on the river.

Evinrude specifications read: Full Throttle RPM Range 5,300 to 6,000 RPM

19-pitch gave 46-MPH at 5100-RPM, and quick [acceleration from a standing start]. I was a little concerned about lugging the motor at less than Evinrude specified engien speed.

The 17-pitch gave 44-MPH at 5,600-RPM and was quick [accelerating from a standing start] but didn't really seem any quicker than the 19-pitch.

In all fairness, the lake trip with the 17-pitch had about 200-lbs more in the boat than the river trip with the 19-pitch. The lake was breezy and my T-top is big--a custom Police type with some gizmos on it that catches some air.

My 150 H.O. only has two hours run time on it, but as I run it and test it, I'll be measuring the performance carefully, and like a new car, I suspect it'll run better and better--if that's possible--as I put some hours on it.

I haven't purchased my electronics yet but I'll soon have a big screen GPS to compare against my speedometer.

I appreciate all the friendly and helpful feedback here. There's always something to be learned from others, and there is a wealth of knowledge here. Thanks, and tight lines.

------------------

ASIDE: Electronics--hmmm, that's another thread and topic--but I'll just say that I mistakenly went into a giant Cabelas in Augusta, GA and left with my head spinning. They had so many fabulous Lowrance and other sonars, GPS, and super sales, etc., wow, I thought I knew what I wanted, but after seeing all the new stuff, I punted. What a GREAT store, almost as fun as running the boat. My fav right now is the Lowrance HD8. It even has a radar option. Very cool. Like $800. Anyway, that's for another thread.

Whalrman posted 03-16-2015 08:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for Whalrman  Send Email to Whalrman     
I too have been enjoying this account on your quest for a new engine, as jimh mentioned. Yea that is a BIG T-top a lot of windage there but you have a great looking boat. That is the model I wanted, without the T-top and diver side hand rails. Dive door for the ease of getting the dog on and off at the sandbar. Send pic's of the rig now with the engine. Enjoy!!
tedious posted 03-16-2015 08:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
That's an interesting new data point with the 17-pitch propeller. To me it clearly indicates that the two tests were not with equal conditions; perhaps the extra weight and wind, in combination, caused that dropoff.

With the 19-pitch a speed 46-MPH at 5100-RPM gives a calculated slip of 7.26 With the 17-pitch a speed of 44-MPH at 5600 RPM gives a calculated slip of 9.71. That's a pretty significant difference in slip, for the same model propeller. I would expect the 17-pitch to be able to meet or beat the top speed of the 19-pitch if tested in the exact same conditions. Bear with me on this as it could be confusing.

Assuming the power curve for the 150 H.O. is symmetric, centered on 5,600 RPM, it should make the same power at 6,100 RPM as it did at 5,100. If it was able to push the boat to 46-MPH at 5,100 RPM with the 19-pitch, it should be able to push the boat to 46-MPH with the 17-pitch at either 5,855-RPM or 5,700-RPM, depending on which slip figure you use. That's because in theory the 150 H.O. should make more power at either of those RPM figures than it does at 5,100. Anybody still with me?

Elvis, the bottom line is that (in my opinion of course) the 17-pitch is the better prop choice than the 19-pitch, and will not result in a speed dropoff at all, even though your first result shows it did.

Tim

Peter posted 03-16-2015 09:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
If my reading between the lines is accurate, I believe that Elvis was relying on the motor's pitot tube speed readout on the gauge rather than a GPS speed measured in two opposite directions and averaged. I would not get too hung up on the accuracy, certainly not to take a slip calculation to the one-hundredths place.

In my experiences, I can't recall ever having a lower pitch propeller achieve a higher top speed than a higher pitch propeller except where the motor is caused to run below its WOT operating range by the higher pitch propeller having too much pitch.

tedious posted 03-16-2015 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Yes, pitot tube speeds are notoriously inaccurate, especially in an environment with marine growth - but two samples, spaced closely in time, should be pretty decent. Although not, of course, to multiple decimal places - just threw those in because Jim's nice calculator provides them.

Peter, your second paragraph describes exactly what I believe Elvis is seeing, and is why I think the 17-pitch will meet or likely beat the WOT speed originally achieved with the 19-pitch.

Tim

jimh posted 03-17-2015 08:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Boats tend to accumulate weight as they get older, mostly by more gear being aboard. Unless that absolute top speed is the most important consideration, I'd go for a propeller that put the engine speed at full throttle into the upper end of the recommended range. I believe in this application that is the 17-pitch.

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